Real ID

[Aquahound]

2 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

 

TSA screener training may be collocated with the federal law enforcement facility but it is a separate academy solely for training TSA checkpoint screeners. It's two weeks, Monday to Friday. No weapons training, no physical fitness testing, and they do not become sworn LEOs upon completion. 

 

Interesting comparison to NJ State Police Academy runs six months for new hires.

 

 

Since TSA screeners do not have law enforcement authority, they should not be expected to train on the level of sworn law enforcement officers.  That said, being on the same grounds does give them exposure to actual LE components, even if its just over lunch conversation.  

 

I pointed out they are trained at FLETC in response to someone claiming they only get 20 hours of training.  

[CPT Trips]

Points well taken Aquahound. You are correct (even though their job title includes "officer," they wear uniforms, have rank insignia, and have badge like designs embroidered on their shirts) they aren't LEOs.

 

Why the uniform and paraphernalia? To have average folk think they are LEOs?

 

I don't know whether there is much interaction between trainees in the various programs. Do you? My experience in similar training centers (mostly military and not recent) is that there isn't a lot of cross over. My take is that using the centralized training site was an effort to standardize screening after the bad publicity of the "Red Team" failure rate. Conveniently, FLETC had space to expand.

 

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

 

Who records the unique information the is written or encoded on the ID you present to the TSA screener? IME it's only eyeballed.

 

 

You conveniently missed all my comments about the need for effective physical screenings. I find a lot of the screening techniques, like removing shoes and discarding water bottles unnecessary and ineffective. Yes screening weapons, explosives, and incendiaries is needed, but eyeballing an ID card isn't an element of this screening.

 

Now before anyone jumps on the water bottle example, consider that many European airports use a machine to screen containers of liquids. They ask if you have any liquids, take it to the screening machine, and then return it to you to enjoy in the terminal or on the plane. Quite a contrast to the occasional jetway screenings where people who purchased items to drink are required to "voluntarily surrender" the contents.

This is getting tiresome - any program is capable of improvement - and most imporovements cost money, which the authorities assigned to operate such programs must get from somewhere. I agree that staff qualifications and training can be improved  , and procedures are always capable of fine-tuning — as, in fact, any human endeavor can be improved.  However, I have lost interest in your pot-shooting views, so I am dropping out of this interchange.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, CPT Trips said:

Points well taken Aquahound. You are correct (even though their job title includes "officer," they wear uniforms, have rank insignia, and have badge like designs embroidered on their shirts) they aren't LEOs.

 

Why the uniform and paraphernalia? To have average folk think they are LEOs?

 

I don't know whether there is much interaction between trainees in the various programs. Do you? My experience in similar training centers (mostly military and not recent) is that there isn't a lot of cross over. My take is that using the centralized training site was an effort to standardize screening after the bad publicity of the "Red Team" failure rate. Conveniently, FLETC had space to expand.

 

 

The uniforms with badges are worn simply because people recognize it as a sign of authority, similar to how private security firms do.  

 

I'm at FLETC about twice a year.  They do have some training exposure to others, like when they learn explosives at the ATF range or learn airport terminals in the CBP facilities.   This is all on the FLETC grounds.

 

And lets not forget that not all TSA is screeners.  The Federal Air Marshals are an arm of TSA.  Plus, many TSA screeners receive expanded training on profiling passengers and behavior that could be a threat, and K9 handlers.  These folks interact pretty regularly.  

[sparks1093]

14 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

 

Who records the unique information the is written or encoded on the ID you present to the TSA screener? IME it's only eyeballed.

 

The information that is encoded serves simply to prove that it's a valid ID, it doesn't need to be recorded (and I'm not sure if the gizmo they put licenses through records any of the info but I don't see why it couldn't if it needed to be). In addition to the normal security features on the new ID's my EDL has a machine readable chip similar to the ones used in passports and passport cards but as I understand it that's only read at the port of entry.

Edited October 15, 2019 by sparks1093

[ducklite]

13 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Since TSA screeners do not have law enforcement authority, they should not be expected to train on the level of sworn law enforcement officers.  That said, being on the same grounds does give them exposure to actual LE components, even if its just over lunch conversation.  

 

I pointed out they are trained at FLETC in response to someone claiming they only get 20 hours of training.  

Whether it is 20 or 80 hours, it is still get minimal training for people charged with keeping us safe.  

A friend is a 30 year veteran LEO at my home airport.  They don't share a lunchroom with TSA and have minimal interaction with them outside of the actual requirements of their job.  Their major role outside of presence is to diffuse situations.  He says often they are caused by the TSA screeners not following the written TSA rules and passengers refusing to comply with whatever a TSA employee has decided to make up on their own that day.  He usually gets there about the same time a TSA manager does, and almost always the screener is relieved of duty, and the passenger is allowed to fly.  He has also had to respond to numerous accusations of theft, and has arrested several screeners after video was reviewed.   One pocketed a Rolex and as of a month ago is in prison for a minimum of five years. Did he really think he'd get away with it?  

[ducklite]

9 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

The uniforms with badges are worn simply because people recognize it as a sign of authority, similar to how private security firms do.  

I have a guy with a shirt that has a badge on it that says security officer at the entrance of my community.  He can't even figure out how to call the right house to get authorization to let guests in.  He's also gone through 80 hours of security training.  Chew on that for a minute...

[ducklite]

20 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

The information that is encoded serves simply to prove that it's a valid ID, it doesn't need to be recorded (and I'm not sure if the gizmo they put licenses through records any of the info but I don't see why it couldn't if it needed to be). In addition to the normal security features on the new ID's my EDL has a machine readable chip similar to the ones used in passports and passport cards but as I understand it that's only read at the port of entry.

That explains it.  You have an enhanced drivers license.  That and a REAL ID are different things, and an EDL is not a substitute for a REAL ID and vice versa. You should probably figure out exactly what you do have before you decide to fly.

[sparks1093]

27 minutes ago, ducklite said:

That explains it.  You have an enhanced drivers license.  That and a REAL ID are different things, and an EDL is not a substitute for a REAL ID and vice versa. You should probably figure out exactly what you do have before you decide to fly.

My EDL is REAL ID compliant. I thank you for your advice but I do know exactly what I need to fly (and cross a land border, and board a cruise, and fly internationally). They are two different things indeed but the EDL is the stronger of the two documents since it proves citizenship and identity in one document, a REAL ID doesn't do that.

Edited October 15, 2019 by sparks1093

[ducklite]

30 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

My EDL is REAL ID compliant. I thank you for your advice but I do know exactly what I need to fly (and cross a land border, and board a cruise, and fly internationally). They are two different things indeed but the EDL is the stronger of the two documents since it proves citizenship and identity in one document, a REAL ID doesn't do that.

My point was that you had to go through extra hoops to get the EDL.  Those who are only getting REAL ID are not being scrutinized like the EDL is.  The EDL is for all practical purposes equivalent to passport in limited circumstances.  
Not all EDL's are REAL ID compliant, and many don't realize that.  I was only trying to help you and anyone else who might be reading this thread.  No need for snark.

Edited October 15, 2019 by ducklite

[sparks1093]

13 minutes ago, ducklite said:

My point was that you had to go through extra hoops to get the EDL.  Those who are only getting REAL ID are not being scrutinized like the EDL is.  The EDL is for all practical purposes equivalent to passport in limited circumstances.  
Not all EDL's are REAL ID compliant, and many don't realize that.  I was only trying to help you and anyone else who might be reading this thread.  No need for snark.

But all EDL's are REAL ID compliant. I had to present the same thing (a birth certificate) that I'd have to submit to get a REAL ID compliant license. (And it's actually equivalent to a passport card, not a passport.) I'm sorry that you thought my response was snarky, it wasn't intended that way. Here's what one DHS website has to say:

Q: Will a federal agency accept my Enhanced Driver's License?

Yes. State-issued Enhanced Driver's Licenses (EDLs) are designated as acceptable border-crossing documents by DHS under the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and are acceptable alternatives for official federal purposes such as accessing a Federal facility or boarding a commercial aircraft. Individual agency policies may still apply.

Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont, and Washington are the only states that currently issue EDLs. For more information on EDLs, please go to https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-drivers-licenses-what-are-they.

[njhorseman]

19 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Not all EDL's are REAL ID compliant, and many don't realize that.

 

You're wrong. I suggest you read the following from TSA:

 

https://www.tsa.gov/real-id

 

About enhanced driver's licenses.

Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, and New York states issue REAL ID and state-issued enhanced driver’s licenses, both of which are acceptable. Washington state issues enhanced driver’s licenses only.

State-issued enhanced driver's licenses are marked with a flag. These documents will be accepted at the airport security checkpoint when the REAL ID enforcement goes into effect.

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

You're wrong. I suggest you read the following from TSA:

 

https://www.tsa.gov/real-id

 

About enhanced driver's licenses.

Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, and New York states issue REAL ID and state-issued enhanced driver’s licenses, both of which are acceptable. Washington state issues enhanced driver’s licenses only.

State-issued enhanced driver's licenses are marked with a flag. These documents will be accepted at the airport security checkpoint when the REAL ID enforcement goes into effect.

I was just coming in to add what the Vermont DMV site says:

Enhanced Driver’s License (EDL)

An EDL is a Real ID Compliant License and also a convenient border crossing document for U.S. citizens returning home from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean or Bermuda, by land or sea. Must be Vermont resident and U.S. Citizen.

[ducklite]

3 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

You're wrong. I suggest you read the following from TSA:

 

https://www.tsa.gov/real-id

 

About enhanced driver's licenses.

Michigan, Vermont, Minnesota, and New York states issue REAL ID and state-issued enhanced driver’s licenses, both of which are acceptable. Washington state issues enhanced driver’s licenses only.

State-issued enhanced driver's licenses are marked with a flag. These documents will be accepted at the airport security checkpoint when the REAL ID enforcement goes into effect.

 

Just now, sparks1093 said:

I was just coming in to add what the Vermont DMV site says:

Enhanced Driver’s License (EDL)

An EDL is a Real ID Compliant License and also a convenient border crossing document for U.S. citizens returning home from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean or Bermuda, by land or sea. Must be Vermont resident and U.S. Citizen.

 

I stand corrected.  

[sparks1093]

1 minute ago, ducklite said:

 

 

I stand corrected.  

There is confusion though- many people think that their REAL ID is the same as an EDL. I have read one thread where the passenger showed up with his REAL ID compliant license and was denied boarding until someone faxed a copy of his birth certificate to the port (and I am sure that this occurs frequently). So if you modified your statement to "Not all REAL ID compliant licenses are EDL's, and many don't realize that" it would be accurate.  

[CPT Trips]

Yes, many (perhaps all) driver's licenses are machine readable. On flights out of PHL, EWR, MCO, and JFK over the past year I have yet to see the TSA document checker do anything other than visually examine my ID. Given that, i can't imagine how there is any kind of data base check. 

[sparks1093]

4 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

Yes, many (perhaps all) driver's licenses are machine readable. On flights out of PHL, EWR, MCO, and JFK over the past year I have yet to see the TSA document checker do anything other than visually examine my ID. Given that, i can't imagine how there is any kind of data base check. 

They likely get the information they need from your ticket.

[clo]

On 10/14/2019 at 2:44 PM, CPT Trips said:

water bottle example,

A few years ago we visited the Holocaust Museum in DC.  They had IMO a brilliant way to test the contents of your water bottle.  They had you drink out of it!

[Aquahound]

13 hours ago, ducklite said:

I have a guy with a shirt that has a badge on it that says security officer at the entrance of my community.  He can't even figure out how to call the right house to get authorization to let guests in.  He's also gone through 80 hours of security training.  Chew on that for a minute...

 

80 hours of training to man a guardhouse to a housing community?  Where do you live?  Fort Knox?

[sparks1093]

11 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

80 hours of training to man a guardhouse to a housing community?  Where do you live?  Fort Knox?

The guards at Fort Knox receive at least 100 hours of training.😀

[ducklite]

15 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

80 hours of training to man a guardhouse to a housing community?  Where do you live?  Fort Knox?

Non-residents require a government issued ID to enter, however it doesn't need to meet REAL ID.  We also have an armed security guy who allegedly has gone through the police academy who patrols around at night.  It's probably the reason that we haven't had a lot of the car thefts and break ins and such that have been happening in many surrounding neighborhoods.  

[SRF]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:44 PM, CPT Trips said:

 

Who records the unique information the is written or encoded on the ID you present to the TSA screener? IME it's only eyeballed.

 

 

You conveniently missed all my comments about the need for effective physical screenings. I find a lot of the screening techniques, like removing shoes and discarding water bottles unnecessary and ineffective. Yes screening weapons, explosives, and incendiaries is needed, but eyeballing an ID card isn't an element of this screening.

 

Now before anyone jumps on the water bottle example, consider that many European airports use a machine to screen containers of liquids. They ask if you have any liquids, take it to the screening machine, and then return it to you to enjoy in the terminal or on the plane. Quite a contrast to the occasional jetway screenings where people who purchased items to drink are required to "voluntarily surrender" the contents.

 

Removal of shoes is due to the "shoe bomber" and the fact that current screening devices do not do a good just scanning the bottoms of your feet.

 

Yes, some airports in Europe have bottle scanners.  Not sure why the US hasn't adopted them.  But bottles were stopped after the bomb exploded on a Philippines flight.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434

 

I have not seen a jetway screening for a while.  And the ones I have been through allowed bottles, as they had to have been purchased or filled on the secure side.

[SRF]

On 10/14/2019 at 12:50 PM, clo said:

YOUR TSA.  As you can tell, others don't have the same experience as you.

 

In case you need a little education, when I walk up to the first TSA agent I say something like "Good morning.  Looks like it's been pretty busy."  When he's looking at my ID I might then say "As you can tell I'm much better looking than that photo."  🙂  It's called "establishing rapport" which is something I do a good bit of.  And part of the reason is that with people who can make my life easier or not, it helps.  But I always have to remember that not everyone was raised as I was.  That politeness isn't second nature.  That remaining silent isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

I am similar.

 

I also know that they make VERY little, and put up with nasty people all day long.  So why not lighten their day a bit?

[clo]

58 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

I am similar.

 

I also know that they make VERY little, and put up with nasty people all day long.  So why not lighten their day a bit?

Absolutely. I'd like to think that we make a difference.  Just a smidge.

[CruisingAlong4Now]

From Department of Homeland Security website: