Dog bite on board

[Elaine5715]

4 minutes ago, clo said:

Does no one report this?

Sure, but she claims McBitey aka Sir Shakesalot is her diabetes alert dog and she can't be required to show she has diabetes 

[clo]

10 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Sure, but she claims McBitey aka Sir Shakesalot is her diabetes alert dog and she can't be required to show she has diabetes 

 I just did a mini-search and it appears that this is still true.  What bull.  I hope to run across her one of these days.  I look forward to making her life a living >>>> well, you know 🙂

[Elaine5715]

6 minutes ago, clo said:

Just an anecdote.  We were at a local, casual place for lunch.  There was a guide dog for the blind in training with a couple.  I stopped and congratulated them for doing that.  I asked if I could pet him and they said no that he was working.  All of us were polite and totally understanding.

That's the thing.  The fact you felt ok to ask is a sign of how widespread the issues are.  Service animals are given universal access because they are considered "necessary medical equipment" under the Americans with Disabilities Act (in the US).  Now, you would never ask to pet someone's crutches or try out their wheelchair but because so, so, so many faux service animals, ESAs and  real service animals being presented as pets (like in the tear jerker WDW ads) people have a hard time respecting boundaries.  It takes a lot of work to train real service animals, to keep the training current and it doesn't take much efforts from strangers to contaminate their training.  Think of it this way, if criminals all carried fresh meat with them and tried to feed police dogs, how long how it take to override their training?  But  strangers stop those out with service dogs every day and ask to pet, some like you are polite and some are not.  

[Elaine5715]

Just now, clo said:

 I just did a mini-search and it appears that this is still true.  What bull.  I hope to run across her one of these days.  I look forward to making her life a living >>>> well, you know 🙂

She is loud, front and center and overbearing.  Any attention is good attention.  She isn't above "nudging" anyone in her way.  She also leaves the dog in the cabin when she hits the slots. which is a huge violation

[clo]

31 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

She is loud, front and center and overbearing.  Any attention is good attention.  She isn't above "nudging" anyone in her way.  She also leaves the dog in the cabin when she hits the slots. which is a huge violation

So the dog then barks when she's out?

[pms4104]

13 hours ago, clo said:

More and more businesses including cruise lines are no longer allowing ESAs, just real service animals.

The only legal protection for ESAs:  the Federal Fair Housing Act and the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986. 

[Elaine5715]

8 hours ago, clo said:

So the dog then barks when she's out?

Yep, unless her husband stays with the dog. 

[caffeine_demon]

16 hours ago, rugerdog said:

Thanks for your responses.

 

Security report was done.  Medical exam and report was done.   Witness reports were made.  This was not the result of an intentional interaction with the animal.  

 

The cruise is over and the cruise line has yet to provide copies of these reports despite repeated requests. 

 

Since this happened "at sea", I'm interested in what agency has jurisdiction regarding the dog bite being reported.

 

Maybe it just found the seas a bit ruff..

[denmarks]

11 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Didn't happen to be on a Carnival Freedom was it? 

I was on Princess but I am sure the group goes on many cruises.

[rugerdog]

18 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

You want facts.  Well, you have certainly come to the right place for that!  😁

 

Good point 😉

[rugerdog]

5 hours ago, caffeine_demon said:

Maybe it just found the seas a bit ruff..

😃

[SRF]

15 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

She is loud, front and center and overbearing.  Any attention is good attention.  She isn't above "nudging" anyone in her way.  She also leaves the dog in the cabin when she hits the slots. which is a huge violation

 

Hmm, so there is no way for her to have a diabetic incident while playing the slots?

 

That would be enough for me to be pretty sure the dog is not really a service animal.

 

That, and watching the owner's eating habits (lots of sweets?). 

[2wheelin]

16 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

She is loud, front and center and overbearing.  Any attention is good attention.  She isn't above "nudging" anyone in her way.  She also leaves the dog in the cabin when she hits the slots. which is a huge violation

Is there video of her? Did you report her to security?

[dkjretired]

Her dog is obviously not a service dog and the cruise lines have every right to boot her off the cruise, they just have to document the dogs actions.  She is probably a very frequent cruiser or some type of ViP.

 

Here is a brief summary of the federal laws on service animals which by the way can only be Dogs and in some cases miniature horses.  Service animals and ESA's are two totally different things. Be prepared there are quite a few surprises in this memo from the US Justice DEpartment.   Many states now have laws but the one thing they all have in common is not being able to get over the Federal mandage that you can't ask for documents.   If someone says they have a service dog, not much a proprietor can do.   

 

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Edited October 1, 2019 by dkjretired

[Rawswife]

No, you (general) cannot ask for documentation or paperwork. Nor can a person ask what condition you have to warrant a service animal. 

 

You CAN ask what service the animal provides. Ex: seeing eye dog, dog who helps a person using a wheelchair, helps someone with epilepsy or seizures. 

 

Emotional support or help with anxiety (even PTSD) is not a service and is therefore, not covered by the ADA. 

 

No proper service dog would ever be unsocialized, snappy, aggressive or bite without provocation. A proper service dog would be 'bullet-proof'. 

[rugerdog]

 

Are these laws, rules and regulations are all US?  And would they apply to cruise ships?

 

So, if a dog who bites another passenger is not a "proper service dog" (and how can this be determined?), what can be done?  Which goes back to my original question, who has authority if the cruise line does nothing?

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, dkjretired said:

If someone says they have a service dog, not much a proprietor can do.   

However, the DOJ also provides a guide to proper behavior of a service dog, and if the animal does not meet these standards, the proprietor can ask the person to leave.  Also, the ADA requires that service animals be in one of only two locations at all times, on the floor, or in the person's arms (or chest carry sling for diabetic alert dogs).  It specifically prohibits them being in strollers, etc.

 

4 hours ago, rugerdog said:

 

Are these laws, rules and regulations are all US?  And would they apply to cruise ships?

 

So, if a dog who bites another passenger is not a "proper service dog" (and how can this be determined?), what can be done?  Which goes back to my original question, who has authority if the cruise line does nothing?

Yes, these are all part of the ADA law in the US.  The SCOTUS has found, in Spector v. NCL, that the cruise lines are bound by the ADA (since they provide public access and accommodations in the US (while in port), to a limited degree.  SCOTUS says that anything that pertains strictly to the foreign cruise ship's "internal policies and procedures" does not fall under the ADA.  So, while the cruise lines cannot deny boarding to someone who claims to have a service dog, they can in fact set their own standards for "canine conduct" that are stricter than those in the US.

 

A dog who bites, may in fact be a "service dog" (since there is no standard or requirements for actual training) in that the dog does provide a service for the owner, but who does not meet the standards for behavior.  As for what can be done?  See my previous post as to who has authority.  If the cruise line does nothing, you don't have much recourse, since the Captain is the legal representative of the flag state government onboard.  You could bring civil suit against the cruise line, as per the requirements listed in the cruise ticket contract, but this would be expensive and time consuming.  Up to you whether you wish to pursue this route.

[sanger727]

11 hours ago, rugerdog said:

 

Are these laws, rules and regulations are all US?  And would they apply to cruise ships?

 

So, if a dog who bites another passenger is not a "proper service dog" (and how can this be determined?), what can be done?  Which goes back to my original question, who has authority if the cruise line does nothing?

 

I doubt that there is any agency who would take any action in this case. Locally, at least where I live, if a service dog was to bite someone it would be investigated first as a containment issue by the police (ie, was the dog off leash, did it get out of it's yard, etc). It would be documented whether or not here was an actual "violation" (and yes, there are plenty of dog bites where say a child wandered into the dog's yard and there is no violation). The local SPCA would then determine if the dog was a nuisance dog, vicious dog, etc. And if they think the dog applies to one of those labels, they would hold a hearing to have the dog deemed that and that would require stricter requirements of the owner on how to contain the dog. With repeated bites, euthanasia would become a possibility. But all of these are done locally.

 

Dog bites someone on a cruise the originates out of Miami and then the cruiser goes home to Chicago. Not a whole lot Miami police/spca or Chicago police/spca would be able to with it. As others have said, this owner is pretending the dog is a service dog when it's not but apparently there's no official system for training and registering and record keeping service dogs (which, frankly, IMO there should be since service dogs suddenly have clearance to go anywhere). The cruise line should certainly ban this owner/dog on future cruises for liability issues. I suppose that once the cruise line is aware of the problem, if the dog was to bite again you could hold the cruise line civilly liable for it.

[rugerdog]

And that is exactly the issue with which I have concern.

 

On land, local authorities document dog bites with repercussions, depending on the city/county/state.  But on a cruise ship, and across cruise lines?  

 

Suppose dog on board bites a passenger, then goes on another cruise and bites someone else.  Whether on the same cruise line or not, how would this dog be flagged so that the line is aware of the previous incidents?  Is it possible for this animal to go from ship to ship without anyone being aware of his "rap sheet"?  

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, rugerdog said:

And that is exactly the issue with which I have concern.

 

On land, local authorities document dog bites with repercussions, depending on the city/county/state.  But on a cruise ship, and across cruise lines?  

 

Suppose dog on board bites a passenger, then goes on another cruise and bites someone else.  Whether on the same cruise line or not, how would this dog be flagged so that the line is aware of the previous incidents?  Is it possible for this animal to go from ship to ship without anyone being aware of his "rap sheet"?  

This is the choice you make, perhaps consciously or unconsciously, when choosing to cruise on a foreign flag ship.  Your protections as a US citizen in a vast array of areas end at the shoreline in most cases.

[GUT2407]

On 10/1/2019 at 12:57 PM, Elaine5715 said:

That's the thing.  The fact you felt ok to ask is a sign of how widespread the issues are.  Service animals are given universal access because they are considered "necessary medical equipment" under the Americans with Disabilities Act (in the US).  Now, you would never ask to pet someone's crutches or try out their wheelchair but because so, so, so many faux service animals, ESAs and  real service animals being presented as pets (like in the tear jerker WDW ads) people have a hard time respecting boundaries.  It takes a lot of work to train real service animals, to keep the training current and it doesn't take much efforts from strangers to contaminate their training.  Think of it this way, if criminals all carried fresh meat with them and tried to feed police dogs, how long how it take to override their training?  But  strangers stop those out with service dogs every day and ask to pet, some like you are polite and some are not.  

You may be surprised how many people ask can they have a ride in my wheelchair.

 

even more who see it as a handy place to lean or rest their foot.

[calliopecruiser]

On 9/30/2019 at 3:59 PM, GTO-Girl said:

licensed “service” animal it should NOT be allowed onboard!!  

Service animals - no quotes required, because I'm talking about legitimate service dogs - are not licensed.  There is no license necessary or available.   Maybe there should be, but that's another issue and a much larger discussion.  Businesses can ask about what services service dogs do, and they can "kick them out" if they are ill-behaved (because that would be a sure sign they're not trained service dogs), but there is no licensing.  (I put "kick them out" in quotes because that doesn't really apply on a ship -- I guess they could sequester them in the owner's cabin?).

 

[GTO-Girl]

38 minutes ago, calliopecruiser said:

Service animals - no quotes required, because I'm talking about legitimate service dogs - are not licensed.  There is no license necessary or available.   Maybe there should be, but that's another issue and a much larger discussion.  Businesses can ask about what services service dogs do, and they can "kick them out" if they are ill-behaved (because that would be a sure sign they're not trained service dogs), but there is no licensing.  (I put "kick them out" in quotes because that doesn't really apply on a ship -- I guess they could sequester them in the owner's cabin?).

 

thank you for your correction.  That being said, I think most people here get my drift.  
 

There is a HUGE difference in bringing your “service” dog onboard to perform a working service for you and those who bring their dressed up “FiFi’s” under false pretenses because they didn’t want to leave them at home!!!

 

I almost 50 cruises under my belt and I have seen some ridiculous situations with those who choose to lie about their animals.  

[ldubs]

18 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

You may be surprised how many people ask can they have a ride in my wheelchair.

 

even more who see it as a handy place to lean or rest their foot.

 

Holy cow, I know I would be surprised.  Can't imagine why someone would even think to do those things.  

 

There are some really stupid dumb-a$$ people out there.   

[rugerdog]

19 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

You may be surprised how many people ask can they have a ride in my wheelchair.

 

even more who see it as a handy place to lean or rest their foot.

 

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

Holy cow, I know I would be surprised.  Can't imagine why someone would even think to do those things.  

 

There are some really stupid dumb-a$$ people out there.   

 

 

Completely gobsmacked.  Maybe these people were raised by wolves?