Credits offered unacceptable

[RickT]

This whole thread is confusing me.  From Miaminice the Celebrity notification clearly states a fully refundable onboard credit in the value of two day's cruise fare.  Would be nice if someone else from that cruise could chime in and advise if it was 100% of the fare or 60% as the OP states?

 

On 11/6/2019 at 1:35 PM, Miaminice said:

This was the information sent to passengers prior to the cruise. IMHO it´s fair given the circumstances which were beyond Celebrity´s influence.

 

Due to the weather circumstances that have shortened your sailing, we’ll provide a fully refundable onboard credit in the value of two day’s cruise fare. We’re also happy to provide you a Future Cruise Credit in the amount of 50% of the revised sailing to use toward a future Celebrity Cruises vacation.

If you choose not to sail on this revised itinerary, you’ll receive a Future Cruise Credit in the amount of 100% of the original cruise fare. You can use this credit toward any future Celebrity Cruises vacation.

All Future Cruise Credits will be emailed to the email address we have listed on your account.

We continue to monitor the weather conditions relating to the typhoon, and should we need to make any further changes to this itinerary, we’ll let you know as soon as we can.

We’re truly sorry for the storm’s impact on your vacation. The safety of our guests and crew is our number one priority. We look forward to welcoming you aboard Celebrity Millennium, where we’ll do everything possible to provide you an unforgettable vacation.

Sincerely,

Celebrity Cruises

 

Regardless, what this comes down to is what is Celebrity Legally required to do?  What does Celebrities contract require it to do?  And lastly, what will make the OP happy.

 

Given the OP hasn't posted a lot on this forum I originally thought they might not fully grasp how the forum works and that most people will try to help  but need details to do that.   And while most of us may be sympathetic to them, may or may not agree.  I then looked at their earlier post and wonder if the OP simply uses this forum to rant?

 

 

[sanger727]

Some people need to get off their high horse and actually read the thread before they respond.

 

1. this was not a delay, the cruise was changed from a 14 day cruise to a 12 day cruise

2. OP said that they were promised 2 days prorated refund (which seems fair) but only received what they believe to be 60% of what was due (so roughly more than 1 day which does not seem fair)

 

Could OP be mistaken about what the refund should be of, yes. But I've yet to be on a cruise where 40% of the fare was taxes and port fees so if that was the case then they got a dynamite price. I'm not sure why the commission the TA got is relevant, that is packed into the cruise fare so you pay it whether you use a TA or not; it's not a separate line item and probably varies a bit TA to TA based on what their contract is with celebrity. It's still part of the cruise fare.

 

Comparing this to an airline delay is silly. He/she paid for room, transportation, food, and entertainment for 2 days that he/she did not get. This is more similar to a situation I was in when we had a first class flight booked with a layover. The first flight was substantially delayed due to a mechanical issue. Due to that we missed the connection to the second flight. They rebooked on a later flight but only had economy left. We paid for first class tickets and received economy seats so were owed the difference in the price, which they quickly refunded. OP paid for a 14 night cruise and received a 12 night cruise. The costs to them to spend two extra nights in Tokyo is irrelevant, that's what the trip delay insurance is for. But they should be refunded two nights as was indicated in the information they got. They are certainly a minimum offered a really good explanation for how Celebrity came up with their calculations. But, I don't see how 40% of the cruise cost could be taxes/port fees. My guess is they are using the noncomissionable cruise fare as the base price and that is nonsense. Cruise fare is cruise fare whether commissionable or not.

[cobre5]

31 minutes ago, RickT said:

This whole thread is confusing me.  From Miaminice the Celebrity notification clearly states a fully refundable onboard credit in the value of two day's cruise fare.  Would be nice if someone else from that cruise could chime in and advise if it was 100% of the fare or 60% as the OP states?

 

 

Regardless, what this comes down to is what is Celebrity Legally required to do?  What does Celebrities contract require it to do?  And lastly, what will make the OP happy.

 

Given the OP hasn't posted a lot on this forum I originally thought they might not fully grasp how the forum works and that most people will try to help  but need details to do that.   And while most of us may be sympathetic to them, may or may not agree.  I then looked at their earlier post and wonder if the OP simply uses this forum to rant?

I have not posted much as you normally receive rude flippant replies.My main aim was to make contact with others on the cruise who felt the same as I do, Speaking to may on the Millenium they were very unhappy with the credit offered but it appears hey are not prepared to pursue this matter, The majority of replies have been from the USA but in the UK it is normal to book through a TA not direct with the cruise. I am still pursuing this with my TA

31 minutes ago, RickT said:

 

 

[Mark_T]

Just to help clear up any confusion. Since the OP is based in the UK and on the assumption that he booked the cruise in the UK (and not via a US TA for example) then this is what Celeberity should have done:

 

• Tell you about the change and give you a reasonable period of time to decide if you want to accept it or cancel with a full refund. You have the right to accept the change or to cancel the package and receive a full refund within 14 days. The travel company will also offer you alternative holidays if they’re able to do so.
• Inform you that if you do not respond they will treat that as acceptance of the alteration or treat the booking as cancelled and return your money. If you do not respond within the time period given, they must contact you again and ask a second time for your decision. 

Weather as a cause is only a factor to the extent that if it had been something avoidable there would have been compensation involved as well, but if weather or something else unavoidable caused the significant change then the details above are correct.

 

 

[cobre5]

Just now, Mark_T said:

Just to help clear up any confusion. Since the OP is based in the UK and on the assumption that he booked the cruise in the UK (and not via a US TA for example) then this is what Celeberity should have done:

 

• Tell you about the change and give you a reasonable period of time to decide if you want to accept it or cancel with a full refund. You have the right to accept the change or to cancel the package and receive a full refund within 14 days. The travel company will also offer you alternative holidays if they’re able to do so.
• Inform you that if you do not respond they will treat that as acceptance of the alteration or treat the booking as cancelled and return your money. If you do not respond within the time period given, they must contact you again and ask a second time for your decision. 

Weather as a cause is only a factor to the extent that if it had been something avoidable there would have been compensation involved as well, but if weather or something else unavoidable caused the significant change then the details above are correct.

 

 

When you are actually in Japan when the changes were made it is then impossible to cancel for a full refund.Had I not left the ULK i would have definitely cancelled

[Mark_T]

2 minutes ago, cobre5 said:

The majority of replies have been from the USA but in the UK it is normal to book through a TA not direct with the cruise. I am still pursuing this with my TA

 

Good that you have a TA involved to help you with this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that using a TA is 'normal' for the UK.

 

Unlike the USA we don't have a large number of special deals from our TA's so booking direct has got a lot more common these days.

[Mark_T]

2 minutes ago, cobre5 said:

When you are actually in Japan when the changes were made it is then impossible to cancel for a full refund.Had I not left the ULK i would have definitely cancelled

 

It doesn't change the obligation that they had to give you the option.

 

The fact that you made your own travel arrangements puts those outside the scope of the regulations for package holidays so you will have to fall back on your insurance for that, but as long as the changes were known before you were due to board the ship, you should have received the offer of a cancellation.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Mark_T

[NLH Arizona]

I'm a little behind all the posts, but would like to ask the OP a few questions.  Did you call the cruise line and ask them how they came up with what you feel is only 60%?  How did you come up with your 60% figure?  Did you take your total fare and divide by the number of days and times that times 2, to come up with your number?  If that is what you did, keep in mind that port charges for each port is not the same, etc.  It would probably help folks help you, if you told how you came up with your 60% figure.

[Mike981]

49 minutes ago, RickT said:

 

I then looked at their earlier post and wonder if the OP simply uses this forum to rant?

 

 

Same conclusion here.

[sfaaa]

On November 6, 2019 at 6:42 AM, cobre5 said:

No we had to pay for 2 extra nights in Tokyo which cost almost a £1000 

What? Did you shop around or simply refuse to be flexible? Many hotels in Tokyo charge less than your quoted price.

[critterchick]

2 hours ago, Mark_T said:

 

Actually, yes, he should expect to get that back, how Celebrity distribute the amount he paid is irreleavant to what his refund should be, but the anomaly comes from the fact that the OP is talking to the wrong people at the moment. He should be getting his refund from the TA as that is who he paid in the first place and the TA will have to add that part of the commission they were paid to the refund ofthe base fare from Celebrity.

 

The alternative though is to take the offer direct from Celebrity which includes a total value above that which he would get back from the TA if he sees value in the future cruise credit. If not then don't accept that offer and pursue this with the TA upon his return...

 

... but keep in mind limitations regarding changes due to weather...

 

NB: Actually it would be good to see the email that should have been sent to the OP in the UK as it should be different to the one sent to non-EU guests as the requirements are different.

 

The TA is not responsible for refunding any portion of the cruise fare.

[SteadyBetty]

On 11/6/2019 at 12:48 PM, cobre5 said:

I booked with a TA but in my mind its the principle of the matter and Celebrity never specified anything except 2 days cruisw

credit 

Unfortunately, the contract takes precedence over our own way of thinking.

 

I hope you can find peace with this issue.

Edited November 7, 2019 by SteadyBetty

[PTC DAWG]

59 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

Just to help clear up any confusion. Since the OP is based in the UK and on the assumption that he booked the cruise in the UK (and not via a US TA for example) then this is what Celeberity should have done:

 

• Tell you about the change and give you a reasonable period of time to decide if you want to accept it or cancel with a full refund. You have the right to accept the change or to cancel the package and receive a full refund within 14 days. The travel company will also offer you alternative holidays if they’re able to do so.
• Inform you that if you do not respond they will treat that as acceptance of the alteration or treat the booking as cancelled and return your money. If you do not respond within the time period given, they must contact you again and ask a second time for your decision. 

Weather as a cause is only a factor to the extent that if it had been something avoidable there would have been compensation involved as well, but if weather or something else unavoidable caused the significant change then the details above are correct.

 

 

I doubt if Celebrity knew 14 days in advance of the storm was going to impact the cruise or not.  

Edited November 7, 2019 by PTC DAWG

[critterchick]

6 hours ago, rhblake said:

The total price you paid includes commissions to the TA. The basic fare is what the cruise line gets to keep of the total amount you paid (excluding taxes and fees). You should not expect to get back any portion of the commissions that the cruise line paid to your TA. You should also get refunded the port charges for the ports you missed but then charged for any new port which was substituted.

OP should expect to get back the full two days of fare less port fees and taxes. The fact that Celebrity paid a commission to a third party was their choice, and he shouldn’t be penalized for that. That transaction isn’t even visible to the consumer.

[Turtles06]

3 minutes ago, critterchick said:

OP should expect to get back the full two days of fare less port fees and taxes. The fact that Celebrity paid a commission to a third party was their choice, and he shouldn’t be penalized for that. That transaction isn’t even visible to the consumer.

 

I agree with the full two days.   I still would like to know what the OP's TA has to say about all this. 

[Mark_T]

23 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

I doubt if Celebrity knew 14 days in advance of the storm was going to impact the cruise or not.  

The 14 days is just how quickly they have to process the refund, it has nothing to do with the time gap between knowledge and decision.

 

 

[npcl]

3 hours ago, RickT said:

This whole thread is confusing me.  From Miaminice the Celebrity notification clearly states a fully refundable onboard credit in the value of two day's cruise fare.  Would be nice if someone else from that cruise could chime in and advise if it was 100% of the fare or 60% as the OP states?

 

 

Regardless, what this comes down to is what is Celebrity Legally required to do?  What does Celebrities contract require it to do?  And lastly, what will make the OP happy.

 

Given the OP hasn't posted a lot on this forum I originally thought they might not fully grasp how the forum works and that most people will try to help  but need details to do that.   And while most of us may be sympathetic to them, may or may not agree.  I then looked at their earlier post and wonder if the OP simply uses this forum to rant?

 

 

The OP is upset because he says that 100% of cruise fare is 60% of what he actually paid.  Which is because the term cruise fare only include money that the cruise lines actually receives and does not include TA commissions, taxes, fees, etc.

 

However in value in addition to the 100% of the money the cruise line received for those two days, the cruise line is also applying an FCC of 50% of full cruise fare minus the returned two day amount.

[npcl]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:35 AM, Miaminice said:

This was the information sent to passengers prior to the cruise. IMHO it´s fair given the circumstances which were beyond Celebrity´s influence.

 

"Dear Guest,

We look forward to welcoming you aboard Celebrity Millennium® for your 12-Night Japan, Korea, and China Cruise departing from Yokohama, Japan. Before you board, we have some important information to share with you.

As you may be aware, typhoon Hagibis is forecasted to affect southern Japan this weekend. Because the safety of our guests and staff is our number one priority, we are delaying embarkation for your sailing by two days until Monday, October 14th.

For your convenience, here’s the new itinerary for the 12-Night Japan, Korea, and China Cruise.

Date Port Arrive Depart
Monday, October 14 Tokyo (Yokohama), Japan 11:00pm
Tuesday, October 15 Shimizu, Japan 8:00am 4:00pm
Wednesday, October 16 Kochi, Japan 10:00am 5:30pm
Thursday, October 17 Hiroshima, Japan 9:00am 8:00pm
Friday, October 18 Beppu, Japan 8:00am 6:00pm
Saturday, October 19 Kagoshima, Japan Noon
Sunday, October 20 Kagoshima, Japan 5:00pm
Monday, October 21 Fukuoka, Japan 10:30am 8:30pm
Tuesday, October 22 Busan, South Korea 7:00am 6:00pm
Wednesday, October 23 Cheju City, South Korea 7:00am 4:00pm
Thursday, October 24 Seoul, South Korea 9:00am 7:00pm
Friday, October 25 At Sea
Saturday, October 26 Shanghai, China 6:00am

If you made your travel arrangements through Celebrity, your flights and hotel stay will be adjusted automatically for you. If you’ve arranged your travel needs independently, you’ll need to contact your travel providers to make the necessary changes to your travel plans. Please be aware that there are two international sports events taking place in Tokyo at this time—the Rugby World Cup and the Grand Prix.

We’ve arranged a late departure, 11:00 p.m., from Yokohama on Monday, October 14th, which will allow time for guests with late flights to join the ship. We will then set sail for Shimizu, Japan, for an 8:00 a.m. arrival. Shimizu is approximately one hour by train from Yokohama. Guests who were not able to join the ship in Yokohama will be able to join the ship in Shimizu.

Due to the weather circumstances that have shortened your sailing, we’ll provide a fully refundable onboard credit in the value of two day’s cruise fare. We’re also happy to provide you a Future Cruise Credit in the amount of 50% of the revised sailing to use toward a future Celebrity Cruises vacation.

If you choose not to sail on this revised itinerary, you’ll receive a Future Cruise Credit in the amount of 100% of the original cruise fare. You can use this credit toward any future Celebrity Cruises vacation.

All Future Cruise Credits will be emailed to the email address we have listed on your account.

We continue to monitor the weather conditions relating to the typhoon, and should we need to make any further changes to this itinerary, we’ll let you know as soon as we can.

We’re truly sorry for the storm’s impact on your vacation. The safety of our guests and crew is our number one priority. We look forward to welcoming you aboard Celebrity Millennium, where we’ll do everything possible to provide you an unforgettable vacation.

Sincerely,

Celebrity Cruises

If you were on this cruise how did your OBC amount compare to your prorated cruise fare?

[Mark_T]

21 minutes ago, npcl said:

If you were on this cruise how did your OBC amount compare to your prorated cruise fare?

 

Just keep in mind that while that letter may have been perfectly in order for a US based customer, it does not meet the legal standard for a UK customer so I would expect the email the OP received to be different...

[Fouremco]

3 hours ago, sfaaa said:

What? Did you shop around or simply refuse to be flexible? Many hotels in Tokyo charge less than your quoted price.

The F1 Japanese Grand Prix and the Rugby World Cup were being held at that time, either one of which would have put a strain on hotel accommodations. With both events taking place, the OP was lucky to get a room at all. Try arriving in Miami next February on Super Bowl weekend and see how easily you can secure last minute, inexpensive hotel accommodation!

Edited November 7, 2019 by Fouremco

[richstowe]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:00 AM, SC_Floaters said:

The cruise was delayed, not cancelled. You are actually not entitled to any compensation...

 

The Standard Cruise Contract says in Para 6

 

6. CANCELLATION, DEVIATION OR SUBSTITUTION BY CARRIER:

a) Carrier may for any reason at any time and without prior notice, cancel, advance, postpone or deviate from any scheduled sailing, port of call, destination, lodging or any activity on or off the Vessel, or substitute another vessel or port of call, destination, lodging or activity and blah blah blah

I believe the OP got a reasonable offer IF they plan to cruise Celebrity again . If not, not great .

 

As to the comment above , the response above is silly . These contracts are abusive and have often been found to be nonenforceable . Whether they come from a car rental , a software company , social media or cruise line , they put all the onus on the consumer and all the power with the corp . Why not make a much shorter contract which says . " We can do whatever we want . Tough luck !" Reading this document is not the issue . Consumer abuse is . 

Edited November 8, 2019 by richstowe

[phoenix_dream]

15 hours ago, cobre5 said:

We have sailed with many cruise likes including RCL and Princess and the cabins and particularly bathroom on Millenium are very small

Just for the record, AQ cabins on Millennium are 191 square feet.  The largest standard balcony on Royal Caribbean is 193 square feet, and many are smaller. Don’t have bathroom measurements.  Its a shame that 2 square feet is all it takes to make this the worst cruise ever.  Perhaps your frustration with the typhoon situation colored your opinion of the entire cruise.  That’s too bad as looking at the remaining itinerary and having sailed happily on Celebrity many times including on Millennium, I would guess there are many who would have loved to take your place, problems included. I honestly think there is likely just a misunderstanding of how the refund was calculated. Did you ever get an answer from Celebrity as to how they calculated the amount?

[npcl]

3 hours ago, Mark_T said:

 

Just keep in mind that while that letter may have been perfectly in order for a US based customer, it does not meet the legal standard for a UK customer so I would expect the email the OP received to be different...

If the OP is a UK resident and purchased from a UK sourced, then if he  feels that the compensation is unjust then he should file a claim under the PTR (I believe 2018 is the current version, updated from the original 1992 version).

 

However, even with that regulation the section dealing with price reduction and compensation, section 16.  paragraph 4 c.

 

(4) The traveller is not entitled to compensation for damages under paragraph (3) if the organiser proves that the lack of conformity is—

 

    (c)due to unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances.

 

I believe that most would consider the storm would meet that requirement of being unavoidable and extraordinary. Even then the company did notify the passengers within a reasonable time frame related to such a storm since they by nature not prone to long term certainty.. They did provide an option for cancellation (though we don't have the actual letter received by the OP nor do we know if they would have allowed for full refund or only full value FCC as indicated in the posted letter), they also did provide compensation in the form of the OBC and FCC beyond the value of the missing two days even with the unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances.

 

But by all means if one feels that they have a valid claim then filing one under the PTR would be the way to go.  I doubt that such a claim would be successful.

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by npcl

[Mark_T]

I made the same point in an earlier post, compensation is not due, but... he was entitled to be given the option of cancellation for a full refund, not cancellation for FCC and that is why I would hope that the letter the OP received was different to the USA one.

 

As long as he was given the option of cancellation for a refund or continuing under the stated terms then the UK regulation were met.

 

We just don't know what he was actually offered as alternatives.

 

There certainly wouldn't be grounds for compensation but I'd guess that he has good grounds for getting the proportion of the full fare he paid refunded as their letter certainly doesn't make it clear that some other lesser number would be used as a basis for the refunded portion.

 

In the end though we may never know unless the OP decides to share the actual notification which he received...

[critterchick]

4 hours ago, npcl said:

The OP is upset because he says that 100% of cruise fare is 60% of what he actually paid.  Which is because the term cruise fare only include money that the cruise lines actually receives and does not include TA commissions, taxes, fees, etc.

 

However in value in addition to the 100% of the money the cruise line received for those two days, the cruise line is also applying an FCC of 50% of full cruise fare minus the returned two day amount.

The TA commission has nothing to do with the calculation of the refund amount. We’ve gotten some refunds and FCCs based on the fare we paid and the amount has ALWAYS been the gross (less taxes and fees). ALWAYS.

2 hours ago, richstowe said:

I believe the OP got a reasonable offer IF they plan to cruise Celebrity again . If not, not great .

 

As to the comment above , the response above is silly . These contracts are abusive and have often been found to be nonenforceable . Whether they come from a car rental , a software company , social media or cruise line , they put all the onus on the consumer and all the power with the corp . Why not make a much shorter contract which says . " We can do whatever we want . Tough luck !" Reading this document is not the issue . Consumer abuse is . 

 

25 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

I made the same point in an earlier post, compensation is not due, but... he was entitled to be given the option of cancellation for a full refund, not cancellation for FCC and that is why I would hope that the letter the OP received was different to the USA one.

 

As long as he was given the option of cancellation for a refund or continuing under the stated terms then the UK regulation were met.

 

We just don't know what he was actually offered as alternatives.

 

There certainly wouldn't be grounds for compensation but I'd guess that he has good grounds for getting the proportion of the full fare he paid refunded as their letter certainly doesn't make it clear that some other lesser number would be used as a basis for the refunded portion.

 

In the end though we may never know unless the OP decides to share the actual notification which he received...

 

I assume that the same people who write the letters for Royal and Azamara wrote this one. They aren’t great about remembering that laws differ from one country to the next. Royal recently shortened a TA and eliminated all of the ports of call along the way because the ship’s arrival in Southampton was delayed by bad weather. They initially only offered FCC, but eventually had to cave and offer a refund as well after it was pointed out to them that they were violating EU law. So it would not surprise me if OP got the same letter and eventually gets a modified one.