Interesting Development Re Service Dogs

[mamkmm2]

6 minutes ago, Coral said:

Thankfully - we were almost always asked where "we" wanted to sit in the restaurant with my Mom's Seeing Eye dog. Most restaurants realized we wanted to be out of high traffic walking areas. I would not have tolerated being told we could only eat outside.

 I understand, but the business is allowed to determine what is a "reasonable accommodation."  Health and safety codes are a huge deal in restaurants.  They can lose their license to operate.  While it is nice that they were able to accommodate you, and you were reasonable with your expectations by being out of traffic, not all people are aware the limitations of the ADA law and make demands they have no right to.  We run into this a lot.  

 

One good example of this is with breeds of animals.  The insurance we have on our properties stipulates that certain breeds are not covered by our policy.  A tenant tried to take us to court because we would not accommodate her breed of service animal.  The court sided with us.  We did not have to put ourselves in jeopardy to accommodate her and her service animal.  A good ADA lawyer will explain "reasonable accommodation" and the laws are quite clear on the subject.  This also comes up a lot with "exotic breeds" of service animals.  Just because a monkey is a service animal does not mean that I, as a landlord, have to accommodate that breed of service animal because our area has codes regarding exotic species.

Edited November 13, 2019 by mamkmm2

[Coral]

14 minutes ago, mamkmm2 said:

 I understand, but the business is allowed to determine what is a "reasonable accommodation."  Health and safety codes are a huge deal in restaurants.  They can lose their license to operate.  While it is nice that they were able to accommodate you, and you were reasonable with your expectations by being out of traffic, not all people are aware the limitations of the ADA law and make demands they have no right to.  We run into this a lot.  

Service dogs are allowed in public places in the US and that means inside. Not outside only. 

 

https://www.fastcasual.com/articles/treatment-of-service-dogs-at-restaurants-and-the-law/ 

 

Fear of dogs, allergies, cultural differences or personal discomfort is not grounds for refusing service of a patron and service dog team. Nor may a restaurant place the team in a separate area or in outside seating (unless requested by the handler). The handler must be treated as any other patron customer.

 

Your information is not accurate.

 

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Obviously I have far more experience than anyone else on this thread in reference to Service dogs (over 20 years of having one in my household and traveling extensively with one). I have shared my experiences on the ship and that is what this thread is about. I am not going to respond anymore. It is not worth my time disagreeing with those who do not understand the law.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Coral

[JimmyVWine]

1 hour ago, cruzysuzy said:

 

or could suffer from medically significant allergies to dogs.  

Far more likely that a person could have a severe allergy to peanuts and there is no one stopping you from bringing peanuts or peanut butter on board. 

[CaribbeanIsland]

32 minutes ago, mamkmm2 said:

 

One good example of this is with breeds of animals.  The insurance we have on our properties stipulates that certain breeds are not covered by our policy.  A tenant tried to take us to court because we would not accommodate her breed of service animal.  The court sided with us.  We did not have to put ourselves in jeopardy to accommodate her and her service animal.  A good ADA lawyer will explain "reasonable accommodation" and the laws are quite clear on the subject.  This also comes up a lot with "exotic breeds" of service animals.  Just because a monkey is a service animal does not mean that I, as a landlord, have to accommodate that breed of service animal because our area has codes regarding exotic species.

Service dogs are allowed at all rental properties-- regardless of breed. I also own rental properties and we can not restrict the type of dog ---

https://www.servicedogcertifications.org/landlords-service-dog/

 

Laws protecting Assistance Animals in No Pet Housing  

There are two types of assistance animals that have special rights regarding housing. The first is service dogs and the second is emotional support animals. If you have a mental or physical disability that requires you to have either a Service Dog or an Emotional Support Animal, you have rights under Federal Law. A few of these rights include:

• 1). Access to “no pets” policy housing
• 2). Exemption from monthly pet fees
• 3). Exemption from a higher pet deposit
• 4). Exemption from breed or weight discrimination

 

We have never had anyone try to use a monkey. Only dogs.

Edited November 13, 2019 by CaribbeanIsland

[TNTLAMB]

14 minutes ago, Coral said:

Service dogs are allowed in public places in the US and that means inside. Not outside only. 

 

https://www.fastcasual.com/articles/treatment-of-service-dogs-at-restaurants-and-the-law/ 

 

Fear of dogs, allergies, cultural differences or personal discomfort is not grounds for refusing service of a patron and service dog team. Nor may a restaurant place the team in a separate area or in outside seating (unless requested by the handler). The handler must be treated as any other patron customer.

 

Your information is not accurate.

 

----------

 

Obviously I have far more experience than anyone else on this thread in reference to Service dogs (over 20 years of having one in my household and traveling extensively with one). I have shared my experiences on the ship and that is what this thread is about. I am not going to respond anymore. It is not worth my time disagreeing with those who do not understand the law.

It's not about bonafide service animals. It's about some lady who lied her poorly trained dog on to a cruise. This same lady was called on her dogs behavior by very elderly gentleman.  The lady either bat chit crazy, drunk  or both threatened to sic the dog on the 90 year old man. The OP who wasn't  there wanted know if she should send screen shots of the event to the cruise line assuming the cruise staff and several hundred cruisers who there (it was the captains circle party) had no clue what happened. Other versions said the dog was also drunk having been served champagne. Apparently  service dogs and/or ESA s are not allowed to drink while on duty. BTW the law only applies to Bonafide Service animals who can go anywhere the owner can. I am as director of a very large international patient advocacy agency very  very familiar with the law as is coral. I must admit I do not know how much champagne an on duty dog can consume though it appears the owner should have cut him off as well as herself as clearly both are mean drunks.

[richstowe]

12 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

 While we can debate all we want about the differences between service dogs and support dogs (the publication seems to limit its discussion to dogs), if the person in possession of the dog lies, there is little that can be done.

So it would go like this

Q:  Is that a service dog?

A: Yes.

Q:  What tasks does the dog perform.

A:  It detects physical changes to my body that require immediate medical attention.

 

End of discussion.  There is no ability to follow up with: "Prove it", or "What type of physical changes to your body?"  So if the person lies, that is the end of the story.

 

This ! Anything else is bull . People like to pretend there is a difference between service and support dogs . There should be but there is nothing to stop someone from claiming whatever they want for their pet . Until this changes there is no effective difference .

[CaribbeanIsland]

9 minutes ago, TNTLAMB said:

It's not about bonafide service animals. It's about some lady who lied her poorly trained dog on to a cruise. This same lady was called on her dogs behavior by very elderly gentleman.  The lady either bat chit crazy, drunk  or both threatened to sic the dog on the 90 year old man. The OP who wasn't  there wanted know if she should send screen shots of the event to the cruise line assuming the cruise staff and several hundred cruisers who there (it was the captains circle party) had no clue what happened. Other versions said the dog was also drunk having been served champagne. Apparently  service dogs and/or ESA s are not allowed to drink while on duty. BTW the law only applies to Bonafide Service animals who can go anywhere the owner can. I am as director of a very large international patient advocacy agency very  very familiar with the law as is coral. I must admit I do not know how much champagne an on duty dog can consume though it appears the owner should have cut him off as well as herself as clearly both are mean drunks.

This thread definitely got off course. The answer to your question is zero as far as champaigne. Alcohol can kill animals.

[RMMariner]

If anyone watches the Jim Jeffries show, he managed to get papers for an emotional support camel. I think that pretty much sums up the ridiculousness of the emotional support animal argument. 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by RMMariner

[Knickearth]

15 hours ago, kywildcatfanone said:

Big difference between a service dog and an emotional support animal.  

 

I think the emotional support animal issue is way out of control.  I would love to take my dogs with me wherever I go, but I am not going to take them somewhere it might infringe on someone else. 

Thank you for being so rational.  It is appreciated.

ii live in a retirement community and the level of support dogs is ridiculous.  So even with the fake or real certification our former mgr. required a doctor to certify about mental condition.  The seniors did not like that

[Mavis and Me]

5 hours ago, CZEE said:

As a side note, a friend of mine's son has a medically necessary dog for seizures.  He had to get another dog after his dog was attacked by another dog while traveling.  Apparently, once these dogs fight, they are not useful for their intended purpose.  I didn't know that.  

It's not because they fought, per se.  Retiring a service dog early due to a dog attack is because the service dog is unable to work due to the stress of having been attacked.  Often times the service dog is more concerned about the sound of toenails clicking on the floor, tags jangling on a collar, or panting/growling/barking sounds, and they can no longer focus on helping their person.  It's a HUGE waste of time and money when this happens.  My own service dog has been jumped 3 times in her career of 2.5 years.  She becomes concerned if she thinks another dog is in a store with her (oddly she's fine outside with dogs around her).  My disability can tolerate this short lapse in her focus, and her behavior is still impeccable.  However, if I were blind, it would be a WHOLE other issue!  Aggressive pets and poorly trained ESAs have the potential to quickly ruin a very expensive service dog, and in doing so, really disrupt a disabled person's life!

[MJSailors]

JimmyVWine

      I read your post about emotional support dogs providing a service for people with anxiety issues. 

May I respond with a flip side to that idea?

What if a person had a negative experience with a dog that caused them physical harm and subsequently developed a fear of dogs. They become anxious in the presence of a dog. What if that person was told by an owner of a “support animal” that they owner would set the dog on anyone on the ship ? Certainly the level of anxiety for the person  who had a fear of dogs would rise. How could that person deal with the anxiety ? How could they enjoy there cruise?

   The number of  people

 bringing their pets,not service dogs, onto planes,trains,cruise ships and into stores and restaurants have escalated over the past number of years. People take advantage of situations where service dogs are allowed and push boundaries to satisfy their wants.

       Royal Caribbean has taken steps to eliminate emotional support animals on their ships. Southwest limits the amount of cats/dogs allowed in their planes.More travel related entities should step up and take steps to stop the abuse of the policy of allowing support dogs to accompanying their humans by those who feel their pets must accompany them 24/7.

 

[caribill]

20 hours ago, pms4104 said:

In the U.S., and for entities held to U.S. laws, only two laws protect emotional support animals ... the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986 and the Federal Fair Housing Act.

 

If only cruise ships could fly it would apply to them also.

[caribill]

 

18 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

I'm not ready to concede that "emotional support" and "comfort" are "nothing" or "not a service".  Mental health is a huge, developing field and we are only now just getting our heads around it. (Pun intended).  There are millions of people who go to therapists to talk about issues and they receive little more than emotional support. 

 

What you say is true, but I suspect a large number of people who take "comfort" animals with them are not in need of comfort, but just want their pet from home to be on a vacation trip with them.

[caribill]

11 hours ago, whitecap said:

So, I decided to get the information regarding "comfort companions" straight from the horse's mouth.  I called Princess and spoke to a customer service representative and explained to her that I suffer from anxiety and need my "comfort companion" with me. I asked for the restrictions and what I needed to do to ensure a pleasant experience.  She explained that I just needed to make sure I could control my "comfort companion" so as not to disturb other passengers.  There are no additional fees or charges so long as there is no damage to the room.  I asked her to hold for a moment and called out to my wife, "hey honey, Princess said that you travel for free so long as I can control you".  I booked the cruise with notification of having my "comfort companion".  Man the wife is really happy!  

 

Do the airlines allow you to take your comfort companion on board for free?

 

Here are Delta's rules:

On Delta flights, service and support animals are expected to be seated in the floor space below a passenger’s seat or seated in a passenger’s lap. Service and support animals and their associated items travel for free. The size of the animal must not exceed the “footprint” of the passenger’s seat.

 

Items include a kennel, blanket, food or similar item

 

Passengers traveling with emotional support or psychiatric service animals must complete and submit the required paperwork at least 48 hours before a flight

[JimmyVWine]

5 hours ago, caribill said:

What you say is true, but I suspect a large number of people who take "comfort" animals with them are not in need of comfort, but just want their pet from home to be on a vacation trip with them.

We obviously have no way of knowing, though I suspect that most of the "purse dogs" fit into this category.  But given how inconvenient it is to take a larger dog on a cruise ship, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is traveling with a lab who never makes a peep, is well-behaved and sits at the feet of its owner at all times.  Remember that whatever rules, laws or accommodations we are discussing here that arise from U.S. standards do not apply in foreign countries.  Cruising, by definition, involves foreign travel.  You can't just put your pet dog on a plane to Rome, hop on a Princess ship and take that dog to Greece, Montenegro and Croatia.  It is really, really, really hard to take a cruise with a dog and have that dog accompany you throughout the voyage.  While the effort might make sense for someone who truly needs the service of the dog, (and the paperwork that would accompany that need), I suspect that the red tape (and risk) involved is far too great  for someone to try to take Fifi along for the ride.  Once again, a Cruise Critic thread has run on and on addressing a problem that doesn't really exist.  Go ahead and start a thread called "Post Pictures of Dogs You Have Seen on Your Cruise Here!" and see what happens.  Crickets.  Honestly, I am "0 for cruising" in that category.  Have never seen a one.  Maybe a seeing eye dog once.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JimmyVWine

[PrincessLuver]

9 hours ago, Mavis and Me said:

It's not because they fought, per se.  Retiring a service dog early due to a dog attack is because the service dog is unable to work due to the stress of having been attacked.  Often times the service dog is more concerned about the sound of toenails clicking on the floor, tags jangling on a collar, or panting/growling/barking sounds, and they can no longer focus on helping their person.  It's a HUGE waste of time and money when this happens.  My own service dog has been jumped 3 times in her career of 2.5 years.  She becomes concerned if she thinks another dog is in a store with her (oddly she's fine outside with dogs around her).  My disability can tolerate this short lapse in her focus, and her behavior is still impeccable.  However, if I were blind, it would be a WHOLE other issue!  Aggressive pets and poorly trained ESAs have the potential to quickly ruin a very expensive service dog, and in doing so, really disrupt a disabled person's life!

 

Are we now saying that stressed out ESA's may need an ESA of their own???

[PrincessLuver]

11 hours ago, Coral said:

Service dogs are allowed in public places in the US and that means inside. Not outside only. 

 

https://www.fastcasual.com/articles/treatment-of-service-dogs-at-restaurants-and-the-law/ 

 

Fear of dogs, allergies, cultural differences or personal discomfort is not grounds for refusing service of a patron and service dog team. Nor may a restaurant place the team in a separate area or in outside seating (unless requested by the handler). The handler must be treated as any other patron customer.

 

Your information is not accurate.

 

----------

 

Obviously I have far more experience than anyone else on this thread in reference to Service dogs (over 20 years of having one in my household and traveling extensively with one). I have shared my experiences on the ship and that is what this thread is about. I am not going to respond anymore. It is not worth my time disagreeing with those who do not understand the law.

 

I think  the issues is that most people find that others bring their pets traveling with them and like to call them "fake ESA's." and that the laws really need to be tightened up because of this wide spread abuse.  It is not that hard to really tell a well trained animal from one that is not.

 

They are making it difficult for those who truly have, need and use true service animals.  

 

Let's just be honest about the fact that people are hiding behind the laws to have their pets fly free, get fake  ESA certifications at bogus websites and then put the rest of us at risk of attack, disease, discomfort, allergies, etc. because they so feel entitled!!!

Edited November 13, 2019 by PrincessLuver

[SargassoPirate]

17 hours ago, voljeep said:

and you're paying double as a 'solo' traveler in a cabin ... but hey, maybe you saved on the port taxes, fees, and the auto-grats ...

 

not sure how you'll handle any travel insurance, huh??

 

And you would only need to buy one beverage package. Could be quite a savings. 😆

 

 

[mamkmm2]

12 hours ago, Coral said:

Service dogs are allowed in public places in the US and that means inside. Not outside only. 

 

https://www.fastcasual.com/articles/treatment-of-service-dogs-at-restaurants-and-the-law/ 

 

Fear of dogs, allergies, cultural differences or personal discomfort is not grounds for refusing service of a patron and service dog team. Nor may a restaurant place the team in a separate area or in outside seating (unless requested by the handler). The handler must be treated as any other patron customer.

 

Your information is not accurate.

 

----------

 

Obviously I have far more experience than anyone else on this thread in reference to Service dogs (over 20 years of having one in my household and traveling extensively with one). I have shared my experiences on the ship and that is what this thread is about. I am not going to respond anymore. It is not worth my time disagreeing with those who do not understand the law.

 

I understand the law because we've worked with the ADA and their lawyers many times over the years.  I did not say that service animals are not allowed inside.  I am saying that service animals and their handlers receive reasonable accommodations and only reasonable accommodations.  And with regard to restaurants, a restaurant does not have to violate health codes to make the accommodation.  If codes prevent animals from being within so many feet of food prep, open food stations, etc. then that is the way it is going to be.  A business does not have to put their license in jeopardy to accommodate someone with a service animal, that is not reasonable accommodations.

 

And yes, most restaurants accommodate service animals by having specific tables or areas of the restaurant so that their accommodation does not violate health codes or OSHA laws.  Just like with housing ADA regs, a restaurant does not have to change the way tables, etc. are set up to prevent the animal from being stepped on or being a tripping hazard for employees. 

 

What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that just because you fall under the ADA does not mean that you don't have some accommodating to do and having reasonable expectations is one of them.  

 

One of the best examples that I've been given by a lawyer is the one with regard to public bathrooms.  Businesses are required to have at least one stall in their bathrooms that is ADA compliant … usually called the handicap stall even if that isn't the best description.  They are not required to have every stall ADA compliant.  A reasonable accommodation would be to ask people to not use the handicap stall unless they need it.  But if there is a line in the ladies room, everyone has to wait their turn.  The person covered by ADA doesn't automatically get to jump to the head of the line though most people would try and do this out of courtesy, not because of requirement.  

 

A restaurant can accommodate someone covered by ADA by having a specific seating location that conforms to health and safety regs but they can't treat the customer discourteously, nor can the customer be unreasonable with regard to other customers and the business.  

[mamkmm2]

1 hour ago, PrincessLuver said:

 

I think  the issues is that most people find that others bring their pets traveling with them and like to call them "fake ESA's." and that the laws really need to be tightened up because of this wide spread abuse.  It is not that hard to really tell a well trained animal from one that is not.

 

They are making it difficult for those who truly have, need and use true service animals.  

 

Let's just be honest about the fact that people are hiding behind the laws to have their pets fly free, get fake  ESA certifications at bogus websites and then put the rest of us at risk of attack, disease, discomfort, allergies, etc. because they so feel entitled!!!

 With regard to animals in restaurants, emotional support animals are specifically excluded.  And yes, even the ADA - though resistant - agree that the laws need to be made more specific at the federal level.  In some states the laws state that a service animal must not only be individually trained but must wear a designation while they are working and it is only while they are working that ADA applies.  Federal cases have upheld those requirements to be recognized as a working service dog.

[mamkmm2]

13 hours ago, CaribbeanIsland said:

Service dogs are allowed at all rental properties-- regardless of breed. I also own rental properties and we can not restrict the type of dog ---

https://www.servicedogcertifications.org/landlords-service-dog/

 

Laws protecting Assistance Animals in No Pet Housing  

There are two types of assistance animals that have special rights regarding housing. The first is service dogs and the second is emotional support animals. If you have a mental or physical disability that requires you to have either a Service Dog or an Emotional Support Animal, you have rights under Federal Law. A few of these rights include:

• 1). Access to “no pets” policy housing
• 2). Exemption from monthly pet fees
• 3). Exemption from a higher pet deposit
• 4). Exemption from breed or weight discrimination

 

We have never had anyone try to use a monkey. Only dogs.

 

Well the civil jury disagreed and we won the case.  A particular breed of dog does make a difference because we were willing to make reasonable accommodation.  

 

The pertinent ADA stances are:

*Individuals who have service animals are not exempt from local animal control or public health requirements.

*Service animals are subject to local dog licensing and registration requirements.

*Under the “direct threat” provisions of the ADA, local jurisdictions need to determine, on a case-by-case basis, whether a particular service animal can be excluded based on that particular animal.

 

It is not nearly as cut and dry as people assume.

[lolabarola]

Yesterday, on board Coral the dog and owner were introduced on stage during the port of call talk for Cabo San Lucas, relevance for this being that he is a Mexican hairless dog breed Xolo? I think. He was introduced as a ‘service or support’ dog and received muted applause ; he is a beautiful chap and behaved perfectly. His owner said a few words about the breed and she too seemed a charming person. Maybe the way forward is for the ship to be licenced to carry a specific quota of service or support animals....

 

 

[Reader0108598]

1 hour ago, lolabarola said:

Yesterday, on board Coral the dog and owner were introduced on stage during the port of call talk for Cabo San Lucas, relevance for this being that he is a Mexican hairless dog breed Xolo? I think. He was introduced as a ‘service or support’ dog and received muted applause ; he is a beautiful chap and behaved perfectly. His owner said a few words about the breed and she too seemed a charming person. Maybe the way forward is for the ship to be licenced to carry a specific quota of service or support animals....

 

 

I am sure she was lovely sat next to a lady on Jetblue she spoke very little English but was perfectly lovely ! She had a dog in a carrier at her feet who whined the whole flight then she tried to share my foot space . Ya that was not happening! I really would like to know where My rights begin ? A true service dog can sit on my lap no problem ! Not that they would, but bringing fluffy with you just because you do not want to leave him home ...not ok! Flight attendant had the nerve to tell my husband to push a small backpack under the seat but it was Ok for fluffy and its carrier to sit right out in the open! Before I get attacked I have anxiety issues myself among others! See Misophonia a little know disorder just starting to gain recognition I am 61 ! I try not to visit them on others!  I do not hate sounds but a dog wimpering next to me for three hours almost broke me!  It is called a trigger! I did crank my earbuds but the TV did not work.. 😞  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Reader0108598

[voljeep]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 12:16 AM, CZEE said:

I was perusing a private forum on another platform when I came upon a post from a woman, currently on a Princess ship with some sort of emotional support/service animal.  From previous posts, she claims to have some disability.  An elderly man, 90s according to her, accosted her about having the dog.  I guess he was surprised by its presence and may not have handled it well.  My filters may be gone if I get to reach that age.  LOL 

 

According to her post, she escalated the confrontation and the dog got involved. She then threatened to turn her dog loose on anyone at any time (present or future cruises) who dared question her right to have a dog on the ship.  It appears there may have been drinking involved as it was after the Captains Circle Party. From the scene she claims to have made, security has likely dealt with the situation.  I took a screenshot of the interchange before it was taken down but will not post it here. Not sure if I should send it to Princess or even how to.  It might just be a drunken post.

 

Guess Princess is going to have to address proper use of emotional support/service animals if other passengers are going to be threatened by the owner.  If I was on that particular ship and saw the post.  I'd take it right down to security.   

 

 

had to go back and see what this thread was about ... thought I had stumbled into a ADA classroom of experts ... instead of a cruise forum ...

[nattie]

5 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

We obviously have no way of knowing, though I suspect that most of the "purse dogs" fit into this category.  But given how inconvenient it is to take a larger dog on a cruise ship, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is traveling with a lab who never makes a peep, is well-behaved and sits at the feet of its owner at all times.  Remember that whatever rules, laws or accommodations we are discussing here that arise from U.S. standards do not apply in foreign countries.  Cruising, by definition, involves foreign travel.  You can't just put your pet dog on a plane to Rome, hop on a Princess ship and take that dog to Greece, Montenegro and Croatia.  It is really, really, really hard to take a cruise with a dog and have that dog accompany you throughout the voyage.  While the effort might make sense for someone who truly needs the service of the dog, (and the paperwork that would accompany that need), I suspect that the red tape (and risk) involved is far too great  for someone to try to take Fifi along for the ride.  Once again, a Cruise Critic thread has run on and on addressing a problem that doesn't really exist.  Go ahead and start a thread called "Post Pictures of Dogs You Have Seen on Your Cruise Here!" and see what happens.  Crickets.  Honestly, I am "0 for cruising" in that category.  Have never seen a one.  Maybe a seeing eye dog once.

I think it really depends on WHERE you cruise. As you have said, Med cruises or Asia cruises probably wouldn't have any pets. However, Caribbean cruises originating from FL or NY are different story. On my last four cruises in Caribbean I have seen five dogs (one had an "attention" dog that barked at everyone around him and a service dog that was superbly behaved). None were seen on the Baltic cruise we just did.

It is super easy for resident of FL for example to just drive to the port with Fifi in tow.

Edited November 13, 2019 by nattie
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