Safety Drill

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, TAD2005 said:

As is totally obvious by my other posts on this topic, I DO think about my own safety and my DW's.  Because of the muster drill, I know exactly how to get there, and in most cases, it is to the actual boat boarding station.  I also am aware of different routes to that station because I walk the promenade deck regularly.   In all of my many year history with HAL, I have never sailed on the 2 newest, larger ships that have muster stations in lounges.   So, if there's any doubt, I am in favor of the muster drills held on the promenade deck next to the boat boarding station.   

While there are benefits to the muster stations being under the boats, and this is the preferred location per IMO, there are also some severe drawbacks on passenger ships, and there is nothing inherently unsafe or less safe about indoor muster locations, and in many scenarios are safer.  As witness the Star Princess fire, the passengers were held at muster for hours, with never any consideration that they would board the boats.  The fire raged directly above the starboard side lifeboats, so not sure you would have wanted to be standing there for hours.  Again, and again, the muster is not about the boats.  If I have to divert a fire team to search for a missing passenger, who may be in the fire zone, but instead is stupidly standing at the boat embarkation point, and not being accounted for at muster, that means that it will take that much longer to deal with the emergency, and likely cause more damage to the ship.

 

And if you feel that all the available routes from anywhere on the ship to a boat station can be seen by walking the promenade deck, well that's where I sign off.

[TAD2005]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While there are benefits to the muster stations being under the boats, and this is the preferred location per IMO, there are also some severe drawbacks on passenger ships, and there is nothing inherently unsafe or less safe about indoor muster locations, and in many scenarios are safer.  As witness the Star Princess fire, the passengers were held at muster for hours, with never any consideration that they would board the boats.  The fire raged directly above the starboard side lifeboats, so not sure you would have wanted to be standing there for hours.  Again, and again, the muster is not about the boats.  If I have to divert a fire team to search for a missing passenger, who may be in the fire zone, but instead is stupidly standing at the boat embarkation point, and not being accounted for at muster, that means that it will take that much longer to deal with the emergency, and likely cause more damage to the ship.

 

And if you feel that all the available routes from anywhere on the ship to a boat station can be seen by walking the promenade deck, well that's where I sign off.

Case closed, we have differing opinions, and I will leave it at that.

[kazu]

On 12/1/2019 at 8:27 PM, TAD2005 said:

I compare the indoor muster drills to the old days in grade school (1950's) when we were told to get under our desks and "duck and cover" as a protection from a nuclear blast.   As we quickly learned, that 'duck & cover" farce was just to placate people and allow them to feel safe and protected.   In an actual nuclear blast, you and the desk you are under would be toast.  The indoor muster drills fulfill the USCG requirements, but tells you nothing about the location or route of where your lifeboat boarding station is.   In a real emergency, all civility and order will be quickly abandoned.  When that happens, it sure would be nice to know which lifeboat I am assigned to, where it is located, and the fastest way to get there.

 

I’ve only done one indoor muster drill and that was on Oceania.

 

It was in the showroom and it was packed.  You could barely breathe (oh, and you did need to wear your life jacket).  I couldn’t fathom being there for a long period of time.

 

the muster drill was abysmal in my opinion.  And we would slowly leave one persona at a  time in an emergency.  There was no rhyme and reason given as to how it would go?

 

What I did see (without criticism intended) were a lot of people who would move with difficulty and I had visions of the ship sinking while we were trying to get to the life boats.

 

I haven’t done an inside muster on HAL so I can’t comment but I was very uncomfortable on Oceania with the procedure but IMO they didn’t have the same procedure as HAL.  I didn’t have a sense of safety on Oceania at all but that was probably partially due to the crew we had at the time.

 

 

[dag144]

I never thought that my innocent thread would evoke such interest and passion.  If I may sum up what appears to be a consensus  (after much passion) it is the following.  We all agree that passenger drills are of vital importance.  The major takeaway that we should get from the drill if the location of our muster station.  If it is inside rather than at the location of our lifeboat, we should come away understanding that we should get to our muster station where guidance will be provided by the crew (I hope anyway). 

If a passenger wishes to locate his lifeboat on his own apart from the drill, he is free to do.  However if muster stations are inside than one should not complicate matters by waiting at the lifeboat location.

After reading the discussion I  think that interior muster stations may be preferable to HAL's drill at the lifeboats.  A disaster at sea of bad enough without having passengers getting in the way of the crew who may be attempting to lower the boats.

Thus in addition to being more comfortable, perhaps the many lines that choose interior muster stations, have chosen a safer procedure.  I hope that HAL sees the light.  Amen.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, dag144 said:

I never thought that my innocent thread would evoke such interest and passion.  If I may sum up what appears to be a consensus  (after much passion) it is the following.  We all agree that passenger drills are of vital importance.  The major takeaway that we should get from the drill if the location of our muster station.  If it is inside rather than at the location of our lifeboat, we should come away understanding that we should get to our muster station where guidance will be provided by the crew (I hope anyway). 

If a passenger wishes to locate his lifeboat on his own apart from the drill, he is free to do.  However if muster stations are inside than one should not complicate matters by waiting at the lifeboat location.

After reading the discussion I  think that interior muster stations may be preferable to HAL's drill at the lifeboats.  A disaster at sea of bad enough without having passengers getting in the way of the crew who may be attempting to lower the boats.

Thus in addition to being more comfortable, perhaps the many lines that choose interior muster stations, have chosen a safer procedure.  I hope that HAL sees the light.  Amen.

It is not a choice for a safer procedure, it is really a dollars and cents decision.  If the promenade deck is large enough to hold some or all of the passengers at muster under the boats, that is where the muster stations will be, as determined by the class society based on SOLAS, at time of building.  When the cruise lines reduced the size of the promenade decks (non-revenue generating space) in favor of interior space (revenue generating), there was not enough space outside to have muster stations there, so muster stations were set up indoors.  Ships will not change muster locations over the life of the ship, as this is far too costly in terms of design studies to determine whether spaces meet standards for muster locations.

 

I believe with HAL's three stage emergency stations, the passengers are not to report to their muster locations (whether indoors or out) until the third stage.  During the first two stages, the deck department will start to prepare the boats and get them lowered to the deck.

[*Miss G*]

My first indoor muster was on Cunard and they have huge promenade decks.  The only other inside muster was on Koningsdam.  Much preferred sitting indoors than standing outside.  But if I am standing outside during a real-life emergency muster I don’t think I’m going to be thinking about standing.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

While there are benefits to the muster stations being under the boats, and this is the preferred location per IMO, there are also some severe drawbacks on passenger ships, and there is nothing inherently unsafe or less safe about indoor muster locations, and in many scenarios are safer.  As witness the Star Princess fire, the passengers were held at muster for hours, with never any consideration that they would board the boats.  The fire raged directly above the starboard side lifeboats, so not sure you would have wanted to be standing there for hours.  Again, and again, the muster is not about the boats.  If I have to divert a fire team to search for a missing passenger, who may be in the fire zone, but instead is stupidly standing at the boat embarkation point, and not being accounted for at muster, that means that it will take that much longer to deal with the emergency, and likely cause more damage to the ship.

 

And if you feel that all the available routes from anywhere on the ship to a boat station can be seen by walking the promenade deck, well that's where I sign off.

 

I've got 26 years with the USCG and I totally agree with this post. 

[catl331]

13 hours ago, kazu said:

I've only done one indoor muster drill and that was on Oceania.

 

I haven’t done an inside muster on HAL so I can’t comment but I was very uncomfortable on Oceania with the procedure but IMO they didn’t have the same procedure as HAL.  I didn’t have a sense of safety on Oceania at all but that was probably partially due to the crew we had at the time.

We've had two inside, one on K'dam and one on Disney Dream. The one on K'dam was far better. We were in the MDR, upper level, and there most people sat and listened, although some talking could be heard.

 

On the Dream it was a total joke where we were in the main showroom. There were at least four (and possibly as many as six) groups, two on the upper level where we were two or more on the lower level. Each boat captain (?) had a bull horn and all were talking at the same time!  Added to that noise were many passengers talking loudly. We left feeling that in a real emergency there would be pure chaos! 

[rafinmd]

And the Viking Sky.

 

Roy

[Copper10-8]

The mandatory passenger emergency drill, just some observations:

 

30 minutes prior to the drill taking place, the CD comes on the ship's P/A system and gives the first heads up to all pax. 15 minutes prior to the drill commencing, he/she makes another announcement to "stand by to stand by, it's coming and btw, if you fail to participate, you'll find yourself standing on the dock with a perfect view of the ship's stern as she moves away because you ain't sailing with us." 

 

Then the first alarm sounds which includes the C/D coming on that "Hey listen y'all, it's coming however, no action by our pax is - yet - required." A short time later the 2nd (crew) alarm is activated with the announcement that "passengers should now head for their cabins and stay there until further notice and that all service in public lounges will be halted so put away your tropical drink with little umbrella until further notice."  It isn't until the third alarm which follows that pax are instructed to head for their muster stations so a mandatory muster (roll call) can be taken.

 

That's a total of four notifications that a mandatory passenger emergency drill will take place at a designated time. If you've been on just a single prior cruise vacation, you know (or should know) it's coming! The drill is also listed in the daily program, and those smart room stewards will have ensured that your fancy flat screen cabin television is turned on when you arrive for the first time in your stateroom playing, guess what, The Big Bang Theory? Young Sheldon? Modern Family? Nope, footage of a similar mandatory passenger emergency drill, yet another hint. They even have made life easier for you because you don't have to wear those silly bulky orange life vests anymore because too many folks, despite instructions not to do so, felt the need to take them off post-drill enroute back to their floating abode, wound up dragging the vest straps behind them in corridors and stair wells, causing tripping and falling accidents to others, which have included serious injuries, and a trip to the hospital prior to their cruise even starting.   

 

Yet after all these notifications, some fine folks still display the uncanny ability to show up late for the drill, some as late as ten minutes after it commencing, some after having been instructed by the sweep teams they have encountered to go forthwith to their muster stations without passing Go and collecting two hundred green backs, others happily carrying adult beverages in one hand, with the end result being the delay of the drill already in progress, while holding up all those who were responsible, were obviously able to follow directions given, and were present and accounted for at their respective muster stations and at the designated time.

 

I've seen drills conclude in twenty minutes when people did pay attention, were quiet/not taking the entire procedure as a joke, and listened to the instructions from captain and crew. Drills that ended in applause from those same pax. I've seen other drills take over thirty minutes because crew members were forced to scour the entire ship in an attempt to locate missing guests who were engaged in activities deemed more important, including cutting zzzzs in their stateroom, having no clue that a safety drill that they were obligated to attend, was in progress

 

What is a mother to do........................

[3rdGenCunarder]

35 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

The mandatory passenger emergency drill, just some observations:

 

30 minutes prior to the drill taking place, the CD comes on the ship's P/A system and gives the first heads up to all pax. 15 minutes prior to the drill commencing, he/she makes another announcement to "stand by to stand by, it's coming and btw, if you fail to participate, you'll find yourself standing on the dock with a perfect view of the ship's stern as she moves away because you ain't sailing with us." 

 

Then the first alarm sounds which includes the C/D coming on that "Hey listen y'all, it's coming however, no action by our pax is - yet - required." A short time later the 2nd (crew) alarm is activated with the announcement that "passengers should now head for their cabins and stay there until further notice and that all service in public lounges will be halted so put away your tropical drink with little umbrella until further notice."  It isn't until the third alarm which follows that pax are instructed to head for their muster stations so a mandatory muster (roll call) can be taken.

 

That's a total of four notifications that a mandatory passenger emergency drill will take place at a designated time. If you've been on just a single prior cruise vacation, you know (or should know) it's coming! The drill is also listed in the daily program, and those smart room stewards will have ensured that your fancy flat screen cabin television is turned on when you arrive for the first time in your stateroom playing, guess what, The Big Bang Theory? Young Sheldon? Modern Family? Nope, footage of a similar mandatory passenger emergency drill, yet another hint. They even have made life easier for you because you don't have to wear those silly bulky orange life vests anymore because too many folks, despite instructions not to do so, felt the need to take them off post-drill enroute back to their floating abode, wound up dragging the vest straps behind them in corridors and stair wells, causing tripping and falling accidents to others, which have included serious injuries, and a trip to the hospital prior to their cruise even starting.   

 

Yet after all these notifications, some fine folks still display the uncanny ability to show up late for the drill, some as late as ten minutes after it commencing, some after having been instructed by the sweep teams they have encountered to go forthwith to their muster stations without passing Go and collecting two hundred green backs, others happily carrying adult beverages in one hand, with the end result being the delay of the drill already in progress, while holding up all those who were responsible, were obviously able to follow directions given, and were present and accounted for at their respective muster stations and at the designated time.

 

I've seen drills conclude in twenty minutes when people did pay attention, were quiet/not taking the entire procedure as a joke, and listened to the instructions from captain and crew. Drills that ended in applause from those same pax. I've seen other drills take over thirty minutes because crew members were forced to scour the entire ship in an attempt to locate missing guests who were engaged in activities deemed more important, including cutting zzzzs in their stateroom, having no clue that a safety drill that they were obligated to attend, was in progress

 

What is a mother to do........................

 

I love your "script" for the announcements!

 

Sadly, as my SIL is fond of saying, you can't cure stupid.

 

[*Miss G*]

Everyone at my last muster station drill was prompt, attentive, and uncomplaining.  These are the kind of people I wish to share a lifeboat with.  Thank you fellow muster-peeps.

Edited December 3, 2019 by *Miss G*
Grammar (horrors!)

[bennybear]

On the Koningsdam, we had one of the best quickest most efficient drills inside.  Princess and Cunard also  have inside drills.  They are far preferable to our last outside on Zuiderdam,  complete with blazing heat,  drunk passengers who kept talking so no one could hear.  

Though I am amazed at times by passengers.   When we were adrift in the Mediterranean and the captain was speaking many people at the mariners luncheon just spoke louder!  

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, bennybear said:

On the Koningsdam, we had one of the best quickest most efficient drills inside.  Princess and Cunard also  have inside drills.  They are far preferable to our last outside on Zuiderdam,  complete with blazing heat,  drunk passengers who kept talking so no one could hear.  

Though I am amazed at times by passengers.   When we were adrift in the Mediterranean and the captain was speaking many people at the mariners luncheon just spoke louder!  

 

Really, don't you know that some people are Important and Speshul????

 

But to be serious, another thing to add to the list of problems with the outside muster is the noise from below. If your station is on the side facing the port, there's a lot of hustle and bustle on the pier as the last of the luggage and supplies are loaded. Even if everyone is being quiet, it's difficult to hear announcements. 

[rafinmd]

One thing HAL could do better. When stage 3 is called there are about 30 seconds of instructions to go to your muster station.  At the end of those 30 seconds comes "Do not proceed until the end of this announcement.  By that time I have been at least at the stairs and possibly moving down the stairs.

 

Roy

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, rafinmd said:

One thing HAL could do better. When stage 3 is called there are about 30 seconds of instructions to go to your muster station.  At the end of those 30 seconds comes "Do not proceed until the end of this announcement.  By that time I have been at least at the stairs and possibly moving down the stairs.

 

Roy

They say that in order to allow for announcements regarding muster stations that may be unusable, and where folks should muster instead.

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

They say that in order to allow for announcements regarding muster stations that may be unusable, and where folks should muster instead.

 

I think the point was that the "do not proceed until the end of this message..." should come FIRST.

 

Another serious (in our opinion) problem (this is our first cruise with HAL) is that there apparently is *NO* way to get the announcements in your cabin/suite, other than the actual emergency ones.  So there are quite a few announcements, but not so many to be annoying, that are broadcast in the hallway, and we have no clue what is said.

They say that they don't want to "bother" the passengers except for true emergencies.

Okay... have ONE channel of the TV that is set for such announcements.  Those who do not want to be "bothered"... choose another TV channel.

Some of the announcements are important, even if it's not a full emergency.

 

GC

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

I think the point was that the "do not proceed until the end of this message..." should come FIRST.

 

Another serious (in our opinion) problem (this is our first cruise with HAL) is that there apparently is *NO* way to get the announcements in your cabin/suite, other than the actual emergency ones.  So there are quite a few announcements, but not so many to be annoying, that are broadcast in the hallway, and we have no clue what is said.

They say that they don't want to "bother" the passengers except for true emergencies.

Okay... have ONE channel of the TV that is set for such announcements.  Those who do not want to be "bothered"... choose another TV channel.

Some of the announcements are important, even if it's not a full emergency.

 

GC

There is, actually.  Depending on which switches are thrown on the bridge, the PA goes to various sub-sets of speakers.  Emergency goes to all, or they can choose public areas only, cabins and public, crew only, etc. It's corporate policy as to where the announcements go.

Edited December 4, 2019 by chengkp75

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

There is, actually.  Depending on which switches are thrown on the bridge, the PA goes to various sub-sets of speakers.  Emergency goes to all, or they can choose public areas only, cabins and public, crew only, etc. It's corporate policy as to where the announcements go.

 

I meant there is NO way now for a *passenger* to make the choice.

But why not!?

 

GC

[*Miss G*]

9 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

I meant there is NO way now for a *passenger* to make the choice.

But why not!?

 

GC

 

If you tune to the forward camera on your TV it broadcasts all the announcements and any sail away commentary.  It’s handy for the Captain’s daily address at noon.

Edited December 4, 2019 by *Miss G*

[GeezerCouple]

2 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

If you tune to the forward camera on your TV it broadcasts all the announcements and any sail away commentary.  It’s handy for the Captain’s daily address at noon.

 

No, apparently it does not, unfortunately.

 

We were initially told this. 

Then we were told that "there is a problem with the button [on a mike!?]" but that will be fixed.

 

And since then, when we again complained (including why "the button" seems to work sometimes and not others?) we have have been told repeatedly that it is not possible to hear it in room. 

Guest services state that they have repeatedly passed along the request about this, and thus refused to do it "again".  We thought they should still have "taken the request and passed it along", or how does mgmt (here or there) know what is wanted, or by how many.

 

The bow camera sound is of lovely (and I do mean that!) mostly classical music, which then competes with any broadcasts in the hallway.  (We initially tended to keep that music on all the time, except at night, and sometimes also then, but it was the same cycling of pieces, so we stopped keeping it on all the time.)

 

Sigh.

GC

[kazu]

15 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

No, apparently it does not, unfortunately.

 

We were initially told this. 

Then we were told that "there is a problem with the button [on a mike!?]" but that will be fixed.

 

And since then, when we again complained (including why "the button" seems to work sometimes and not others?) we have have been told repeatedly that it is not possible to hear it in room. 

Guest services state that they have repeatedly passed along the request about this, and thus refused to do it "again".  We thought they should still have "taken the request and passed it along", or how does mgmt (here or there) know what is wanted, or by how many.

 

The bow camera sound is of lovely (and I do mean that!) mostly classical music, which then competes with any broadcasts in the hallway.  (We initially tended to keep that music on all the time, except at night, and sometimes also then, but it was the same cycling of pieces, so we stopped keeping it on all the time.)

 

Sigh.

GC

 

 

I noticed you said you talked to guest services?  They won’t do it “again”??  WTH????

 

See your concierge and if it can be fixed ask them to escalate it or tell them you want to talk to someone who can fix it nicely but firmly.  

 

Just a suggestion.

[GeezerCouple]

1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

 

I noticed you said you talked to guest services?  They won’t do it “again”??  WTH????

 

See your concierge and if it can be fixed ask them to escalate it or tell them you want to talk to someone who can fix it nicely but firmly.  

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Yup, that "again" bit stuck in our craw, big time!

And we had *started* with our Concierges, so that went no where pretty fast.

(They also messed up on our dinner reservations 2 out of 3 times. After the second time, the Maitre d' finally asked us a few questions, and then figured out the problem.  WE then had to tell the Concierges "how to get it right", and then... it seemed to work, although DH tends now to stop by and tell them/reconfirm any changes due to our schedule, etc.  They also failed to inform us of something else, but we managed to inquire in time...  Not ideal, ahem.  We had heard - thanks to CC - that the few NS's on 6 [almost all are onn 7] are sometimes "forgotten" when handouts are distributed, etc., and this fit right in with that.)

 

Please understand that although we've had a few complaints (how else can one try to fix - or change - things?), we are having a WONDERFUL time, and we are enjoying this first HAL cruise far more than we expected.  We do plan to return.

But it would be *VERY NICE* if we could have the option of hearing all messages in cabins/suites.  We fail to see the harm in that, if it is a choice.

 

I asked DH to insist that an engineer stop by, and he was told not to bother; it cannot be done!

 

Odd.

 

GC

 

 

[kazu]

9 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

And we had *started* with our Concierges, so that went no where pretty fast.

(They also messed up on our dinner reservations 2 out of 3 times. After the second time, the Maitre d' finally asked us a few questions, and then figured out the problem.  WE then had to tell the Concierges "how to get it right", and then... it seemed to work, although DH tends now to stop by and tell them/reconfirm any changes due to our schedule, etc.  They also failed to inform us of something else, but we managed to inquire in time...  Not ideal, ahem.  We had heard - thanks to CC - that the few NS's on 6 [almost all are onn 7] are sometimes "forgotten" when handouts are distributed, etc., and this fit right in with that.)

 

Sounds like your concierges are falling a bit flat, to put it mildly 😞 

If it were something that was really bothering me, and I mean seriously then I’d ask to speak to someone who can do something about it - HD, etc.

 

If you want to go with the flow and If it is bothering you or you want your voice heard, you should have the “Tell us what you think” cards in your cabin (come with the evening stuff folded under the 2nd half of the folder).  If you don’t tell them, they can’t fix it.  The written word is a powerful thing.

Fill it out with your cabin number.  At the very least your complaint will be registered.  Those things are kept track of for compliments and complaints.

 

I suspect you will have a call at the very least to your cabin 😉 
 

Glad you are still having a good time. 😄 
 

[Copper10-8]

6 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

Yup, that "again" bit stuck in our craw, big time!

And we had *started* with our Concierges, so that went no where pretty fast.

(They also messed up on our dinner reservations 2 out of 3 times. After the second time, the Maitre d' finally asked us a few questions, and then figured out the problem.  WE then had to tell the Concierges "how to get it right", and then... it seemed to work, although DH tends now to stop by and tell them/reconfirm any changes due to our schedule, etc.  They also failed to inform us of something else, but we managed to inquire in time...  Not ideal, ahem.  We had heard - thanks to CC - that the few NS's on 6 [almost all are onn 7] are sometimes "forgotten" when handouts are distributed, etc., and this fit right in with that.)

 

Please understand that although we've had a few complaints (how else can one try to fix - or change - things?), we are having a WONDERFUL time, and we are enjoying this first HAL cruise far more than we expected.  We do plan to return.

But it would be *VERY NICE* if we could have the option of hearing all messages in cabins/suites.  We fail to see the harm in that, if it is a choice.

 

I asked DH to insist that an engineer stop by, and he was told not to bother; it cannot be done!

 

Odd.

 

GC

 

 

 

A suggestion; ask to speak to the guest relations manager re: this issue and ask her/him to have the Assistant I.T. Officer pay you a visit in your cabin to have a look at your TV. This individual, among other things, is responsible for ensuring that cabin TVs work properly. I say this because the info others have mentioned here is correct; the TV channel that carries the fwd web cam, has an audio option that allows for all P/A announcements to be heard inside your stateroom.

 

Our resident engineering expert, chengkp75, is, as always, also correct by stating that P/A announcements are made from a panel on the bridge and that this panel has an option to broadcast these announcements via ship "zones," either all at the same time, and/or selected others, one at a time, and/or several simultaneously. This includes all public lounges, corridors, outside decks, crew areas, and/or yes, pax staterooms. 

 

Believe it or not, but the reason only emergency calls, i.e. fire alarms, emergency medical responses (the former "Bright Light"), etc. are broadcast to all zones (incl. pax cabins) during all hours of the day/night has to do with a multitude of complaints from pax who did not want to hear the "non-emergency" P/A announcements inside their cabins.

 

Good luck with this and enjoy the remainder of your cruise (not sure which ship you are currently on)