Prepaid Gratuities

[RocketMan275]

6 minutes ago, pacruise804 said:

For a cruise I can pay a cruise fare plus gratuity or I can pay a cruise fare which includes gratuity.  The cruise line will pass the difference on to passengers, so either way I am paying a portion of their wage.

Agreed. What difference does it make how the compensation system is funded as long as the crew finds it acceptable? Gratuities or increased wages, it all comes from the passengers.

 

I'm suspicious that many who moan about the tipping culture believe they won't pay more if auto-gratuities are done away with, that the cruise line will just up the wages of the crew, at no expense to passengers.  Most of the time, they just say they think the cruise line should pay the crew wage.  After all, the cruise line is just a profit hungry corporation that has sufficient funds to pay the crew without the gratuities.

Edited February 11, 2020 by RocketMan275

[red zebra]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

I doubt that very much.  In my experience workers always prefer the system that provides the highest compensation.

Ok so clearly you know what I really think and also the thoughts of my colleagues. So all my posts were totally pointless and I should have just asked you for my opinion from the start.

I pity you, so indoctrinated, so (allegedly) superior, helping out the little guy, wow, the way you throw your money around I might just get myself a job on a cruise ship.

Thank the lord for America and its citizens for showing the rest of the world the way forward.

p.s. you really need to start considering what is really important to your workers, it's not all about cash you know, ever heard of work/life balance, or perhaps you are one of the fat cats I referred to earlier?

No need to reply guys, you have made your thoughts clear, you do it your way, we will do it ours.

[pacruise804]

1 minute ago, red zebra said:

Ok so clearly you know what I really think and also the thoughts of my colleagues. So all my posts were totally pointless and I should have just asked you for my opinion from the start.

I pity you, so indoctrinated, so (allegedly) superior, helping out the little guy, wow, the way you throw your money around I might just get myself a job on a cruise ship.

Thank the lord for America and its citizens for showing the rest of the world the way forward.

p.s. you really need to start considering what is really important to your workers, it's not all about cash you know, ever heard of work/life balance, or perhaps you are one of the fat cats I referred to earlier?

No need to reply guys, you have made your thoughts clear, you do it your way, we will do it ours.

 

I apparently didn't make my thoughts clear.  I'm fine with doing it your way, I just don't see a net difference in what I am paying🤷‍♀️

[RocketMan275]

21 minutes ago, red zebra said:

Ok so clearly you know what I really think and also the thoughts of my colleagues. So all my posts were totally pointless and I should have just asked you for my opinion from the start.

I pity you, so indoctrinated, so (allegedly) superior, helping out the little guy, wow, the way you throw your money around I might just get myself a job on a cruise ship.

Thank the lord for America and its citizens for showing the rest of the world the way forward.

p.s. you really need to start considering what is really important to your workers, it's not all about cash you know, ever heard of work/life balance, or perhaps you are one of the fat cats I referred to earlier?

No need to reply guys, you have made your thoughts clear, you do it your way, we will do it ours.

So, I'm a terrible person because I want the system that maximizes income for 'the little guy'?  Really?

[Canmilitarywife]

On 2/10/2020 at 3:23 PM, Mikiejag said:

I think the OP was referring more to pre-pay vs paying at the end of the trip.  As far as that goes, I prefer to prepay for everything from Gratuities to the Excursions. I know what it costs, get it out of the way and then usually leave with a zero balance.

 

Helps in my planning for the trip, prepaying, for me is the only way to go. 

I’m with you! Prepay is the only way I go! All costs up front and no surprise bills at the end.

[sparks1093]

13 hours ago, red zebra said:

Ok so clearly you know what I really think and also the thoughts of my colleagues. So all my posts were totally pointless and I should have just asked you for my opinion from the start.

I pity you, so indoctrinated, so (allegedly) superior, helping out the little guy, wow, the way you throw your money around I might just get myself a job on a cruise ship.

Thank the lord for America and its citizens for showing the rest of the world the way forward.

p.s. you really need to start considering what is really important to your workers, it's not all about cash you know, ever heard of work/life balance, or perhaps you are one of the fat cats I referred to earlier?

No need to reply guys, you have made your thoughts clear, you do it your way, we will do it ours.

First of all as I pointed out earlier there are many cruise lines that pay their crew better wages and do not impose automatic gratuities and you may of course choose to sail with them. You will pay substantially more of course but you won't have to worry about the crew at all and you may tip them or not as you choose. I know many people who work for tips and they do quite well for themselves, much better than they would if they were paid a full hourly wage. It's not for everyone but working for tips is a viable way of making a living. (And you mention work/life balance when discussing folks who spend 9 months or more away from their families every year.)

[trajan]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:21 AM, MizBlueyez said:

Is there anyone else who would rather not pay the prepaid gratuities?  

I hate prepaid gratuities. Defeats the whole purpose imho. It’s gone from a tip to a few.
Cruise ship gratuities have become like hotel resort fees; a way to make the upfront price look lower.

I typically opt out right away and tip out of hand. If service is good I end up tipping more than the fee would have been. If it’s truly excellent I’ve tipped directly very generously and then also had the fee put back to my account. If service was poor then I hang on to my money if nobody cared to earn it. But paying it upfront or by default, no thanks.

[em-sk]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:42 PM, trajan said:

I hate prepaid gratuities. Defeats the whole purpose imho. It’s gone from a tip to a few.
Cruise ship gratuities have become like hotel resort fees; a way to make the upfront price look lower.

I typically opt out right away and tip out of hand. If service is good I end up tipping more than the fee would have been. If it’s truly excellent I’ve tipped directly very generously and then also had the fee put back to my account. If service was poor then I hang on to my money if nobody cared to earn it. But paying it upfront or by default, no thanks.

 

I live in North America. Tipping is the norm for restaurants so I do it.  But I don't like it.  I would be happier if the prices went up and there were no tips.  Same goes for cruise charges, what the cruise lines do today is no different that resort fees at many hotels these days.

 

The main reason is as a customer I am not and do not want to be responsible for doing the performance review of the staff.  If the service is slow, I get the wrong meal, the glass is dirty, my order is screwed up as the customer why am I expected to judge if this is the fault of the waiter, the place is under staffed or there is some other problem.   Either the restaurant has great customer service  because the staff are working as a team or not.  

 

In Europe and many other parts of the world tips don't exist and for good reason. 

 

I think in North America we are going to hit an inflection point soon.   Restaurants are doing more and more business through things like uberEats.  The tip goes to the driver that works for a delivery company, not the team that prepared the food.   Restaurants are going to have deal with the fact they need to pay their staff livable wages.  

 

I agree as others have posted today for Cruise ships they might as well call it a resort fee.  That is what it is.

 

 

 

[sparks1093]

4 hours ago, em-sk said:

 

I live in North America. Tipping is the norm for restaurants so I do it.  But I don't like it.  I would be happier if the prices went up and there were no tips.  Same goes for cruise charges, what the cruise lines do today is no different that resort fees at many hotels these days.

 

The main reason is as a customer I am not and do not want to be responsible for doing the performance review of the staff.  If the service is slow, I get the wrong meal, the glass is dirty, my order is screwed up as the customer why am I expected to judge if this is the fault of the waiter, the place is under staffed or there is some other problem.   Either the restaurant has great customer service  because the staff are working as a team or not.  

 

In Europe and many other parts of the world tips don't exist and for good reason. 

 

I think in North America we are going to hit an inflection point soon.   Restaurants are doing more and more business through things like uberEats.  The tip goes to the driver that works for a delivery company, not the team that prepared the food.   Restaurants are going to have deal with the fact they need to pay their staff livable wages.  

 

I agree as others have posted today for Cruise ships they might as well call it a resort fee.  That is what it is.

I appreciate that you would be willing to pay higher prices to not have to worry about tips but in the restaurants that have tried it their business evaporated. Our last trip out we ate with a party of 5 and our bill was $190. The waiter received a tip of $38. We were his customer for about an hour and a half or so. If you figure that he worked 5 other tables in that time (and the place was packed) and if he made half of what he made at our table than he made about $88 an hour. For a 4 hour shift that's $352. I would call that a livable wage almost anywhere (and I shudder to think how much prices would have to go up in order to provide that hourly wage consistently). (And for many servers their complaint isn't that they don't make enough in tips to live off of, it's that they don't have enough hours, which coincidentally is the same complaint I hear from many wage earners.) 

Edited February 22, 2020 by sparks1093

[em-sk]

11 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I appreciate that you would be willing to pay higher prices to not have to worry about tips but in the restaurants that have tried it their business evaporated. Our last trip out we ate with a party of 5 and our bill was $190. The waiter received a tip of $38. We were his customer for about an hour and a half or so. If you figure that he worked 5 other tables in that time (and the place was packed) and if he made half of what he made at our table than he made about $88 an hour. For a 4 hour shift that's $352. I would call that a livable wage almost anywhere (and I shudder to think how much prices would have to go up in order to provide that hourly wage consistently). (And for many servers their complaint isn't that they don't make enough in tips to live off of, it's that they don't have enough hours, which coincidentally is the same complaint I hear from many wage earners.) 

 

The no tipping model works in Europe and Australia.  In many parts of Asia the wait staff would view leaving them a tip and insulting.  Very different reaction.  Different countries have different customs.  I am not surprised that the restaurants in the US that have tried to charge have failed.  This method of compensation is so embedded in US culture that it is not going to be easy to change.    

 

In some restaurants the wait is expect to share his tip with the back of the house.  That and the problem with hours make it a complex problem.   I expect as the volume of delivery jumps up for many restaurants and the push in many part for a living minimum wage this entire system is going to see a lot of disruption over the coming years. 

[sparks1093]

11 hours ago, em-sk said:

 

The no tipping model works in Europe and Australia.  In many parts of Asia the wait staff would view leaving them a tip and insulting.  Very different reaction.  Different countries have different customs.  I am not surprised that the restaurants in the US that have tried to charge have failed.  This method of compensation is so embedded in US culture that it is not going to be easy to change.    

 

In some restaurants the wait is expect to share his tip with the back of the house.  That and the problem with hours make it a complex problem.   I expect as the volume of delivery jumps up for many restaurants and the push in many part for a living minimum wage this entire system is going to see a lot of disruption over the coming years. 

Well, I've participated in a lot of tipping threads on here and the "no tipping" model in some cases is a straw man. Tipping is done, it's just done differently. In one thread that I participated in a poster from the UK said that a tip of 5 to 10% is expected. As for the push for a living minimum wage (which is a straw man because my living wage with 5 kids was much higher than a single person with no kids and why should my employer give a single hoot how many kids I have in order to pay me a living wage?) the provisions for tipped employees mandate that they have to earn at least minimum wage for the week, so even if the minimum wage is raised they are still guaranteed to make that. The bottom line is that we as the customer always pay the staff of every establishment we frequent. I think of tips as a commission on sales paid directly to the employee.

[RocketMan275]

12 hours ago, em-sk said:

I expect as the volume of delivery jumps up for many restaurants and the push in many part for a living minimum wage this entire system is going to see a lot of disruption over the coming years. 

Please explain how one determines a 'living wage'?  Particularly with an international crew.  Should the wages paid be a function of the country of the crew member?  Should a bartender from the Philippines be paid a different wage than one from Holland?  Or, how many dependents the crew member has?

[em-sk]

4 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Well, I've participated in a lot of tipping threads on here and the "no tipping" model in some cases is a straw man. Tipping is done, it's just done differently. In one thread that I participated in a poster from the UK said that a tip of 5 to 10% is expected. As for the push for a living minimum wage (which is a straw man because my living wage with 5 kids was much higher than a single person with no kids and why should my employer give a single hoot how many kids I have in order to pay me a living wage?) the provisions for tipped employees mandate that they have to earn at least minimum wage for the week, so even if the minimum wage is raised they are still guaranteed to make that. The bottom line is that we as the customer always pay the staff of every establishment we frequent. I think of tips as a commission on sales paid directly to the employee.

 

Should have said continental Europe, Australia and Asia.  

 

I view it differently.  It is the silly way we in North America compensate people who work in certain jobs.  Sometimes it is the customary compensation.  

 

Not certain about the US, in Canada the "push for a living wage", simply amounts to raising the minimum wage so the average family can service on it above the poverty line.   In the US are they actually trying to tie it to specific family setup of each individual?  That would be unworkable.  In the Canadian context the delta between minimum varies, in BC (the province where I am), it is $14.60/h for most people and $13.95/h for servers in establishments with liquor licenses.  The reason for the lower minimum wage for servers in licensed establishments is here minimum wage applies before adding tips.         

 

 

[em-sk]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Please explain how one determines a 'living wage'?  Particularly with an international crew.  Should the wages paid be a function of the country of the crew member?  Should a bartender from the Philippines be paid a different wage than one from Holland?  Or, how many dependents the crew member has?

 

The definition of a living wage is if your making that wage you should be able to pay for shelter, food and medical care in an average family.  It is not about paying people different for the same work based on their specific personal conditions.  

 

Most of the bartenders are going to be from the Philippines or other countries with a similar standard of living.  The Philippines is also a culture where tipping was historically not very common.  Someone from Holland is probably going to pass on that job if the salary is to low.  Holland is also a country were tipping is nothing more than rounding up the bill.  

 

I go back to I view the daily service charge on a ship in the same way as a resort fee.  It is a mandatory charge by the employer.  The employee behind the scenes figures out to how to spend it.  

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, em-sk said:

 

Should have said continental Europe, Australia and Asia.  

 

I view it differently.  It is the silly way we in North America compensate people who work in certain jobs.  Sometimes it is the customary compensation.  

 

Not certain about the US, in Canada the "push for a living wage", simply amounts to raising the minimum wage so the average family can service on it above the poverty line.   In the US are they actually trying to tie it to specific family setup of each individual?  That would be unworkable.  In the Canadian context the delta between minimum varies, in BC (the province where I am), it is $14.60/h for most people and $13.95/h for servers in establishments with liquor licenses.  The reason for the lower minimum wage for servers in licensed establishments is here minimum wage applies before adding tips.         

So living conditions in Saskatchewan are the same in Ontario? Vancouver is the same as Montreal? I know that the living expense here in Enosburg Falls is much different than it is in Los Angeles. Minimum wage is entry level at best and is not designed to be more than that. Raising minimum wage may help short term but eventually things will level out and at the end of the day a person working for minimum wage is still working for minimum wage. Maybe setting up job training opportunities might be a better way of addressing the issue. The other thing is if the minimum is raised too high it will make it cheaper for employers to replace some employees with automation and it will certainly result in cut hours and staffing. The government should regulate business, it shouldn't try to run it (because it has a difficult time running itself) and local governments should be responsible for addressing local issues.

[em-sk]

15 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

So living conditions in Saskatchewan are the same in Ontario? Vancouver is the same as Montreal? I know that the living expense here in Enosburg Falls is much different than it is in Los Angeles. Minimum wage is entry level at best and is not designed to be more than that. Raising minimum wage may help short term but eventually things will level out and at the end of the day a person working for minimum wage is still working for minimum wage. Maybe setting up job training opportunities might be a better way of addressing the issue. The other thing is if the minimum is raised too high it will make it cheaper for employers to replace some employees with automation and it will certainly result in cut hours and staffing. The government should regulate business, it shouldn't try to run it (because it has a difficult time running itself) and local governments should be responsible for addressing local issues.

 

The job market in Canada is tight and most employers are finding it hard to find people.  Employers are usually paying more than minimum wage.  Automation that eliminates jobs is a positive.  

 

In Canada each province sets its own minimum wage.  So Saskatchewan is $11.32/h and min $45/per call out/shift.   

 

The goal is to ensure there is a safety net and that people who are the "working poor" at least have some minimum level of pay that ensures they can put food on the table and have a roof over their head.   There is something wrong if someone who is working full time needs to live in a car as an example. 

 

I appreciate the US has a very different approach to all of this. For the working poor they have these food stamp programs that is paid directly to grocery stores and can only be used on food products the federal government has approved.   We don't have anything like that.  

 

I would also agree that training is a good way of moving people above that minimum.  

[sparks1093]

12 minutes ago, em-sk said:

 

The job market in Canada is tight and most employers are finding it hard to find people.  Employers are usually paying more than minimum wage.  Automation that eliminates jobs is a positive.  

 

In Canada each province sets its own minimum wage.  So Saskatchewan is $11.32/h and min $45/per call out/shift.   

 

The goal is to ensure there is a safety net and that people who are the "working poor" at least have some minimum level of pay that ensures they can put food on the table and have a roof over their head.   There is something wrong if someone who is working full time needs to live in a car as an example. 

 

I appreciate the US has a very different approach to all of this. For the working poor they have these food stamp programs that is paid directly to grocery stores and can only be used on food products the federal government has approved.   We don't have anything like that.  

 

I would also agree that training is a good way of moving people above that minimum.  

And much the same is happening here in the US, employers are paying more than minimum wage to attract workers given our low unemployment rate. I've found that in real life if someone is living in their car it's possibly because of choices that they've made along the way that came back to bite them. That may or may not apply in every case but it still does apply. Yes, we do have safety net programs that help people on the lower spectrum make ends meet and I support those more than I support raising the minimum wage. Of course none of this has anything to do with most tipped employees as they have to make at least minimum wage and in many cases make much more. (To keep this in cruise line perspective that Philippine crew member can earn 2 to 4 times onboard ship what he or she can make at home doing similar work. This is enhanced by the fact that their tips are not subject to income tax (as I understand it). 

 

Personally, if the people doing the work are happy with the system far be it from me, an outsider, to force them to change.

[drsel]

I always pay gratuities at the end of the cruise because my money grows in time, so it doesn't make sense to spend it before required.
Also, Costa gives 2 points per euro, based on the gratituties paid at the end.

[drsel]

And much the same is happening here in the US, employers are paying more than minimum wage to attract workers given our low unemployment rate. I've found that in real life if someone is living in their car it's possibly because of choices that they've made along the way that came back to bite them. That may or may not apply in every case but it still does apply. Yes, we do have safety net programs that help people on the lower spectrum make ends meet and I support those more than I support raising the minimum wage. Of course none of this has anything to do with most tipped employees as they have to make at least minimum wage and in many cases make much more. (To keep this in cruise line perspective that Philippine crew member can earn 2 to 4 times onboard ship what he or she can make at home doing similar work. This is enhanced by the fact that their tips are not subject to income tax (as I understand it). 
 
Personally, if the people doing the work are happy with the system far be it from me, an outsider, to force them to change.

I think the bartenders earn 10 times more than the would for the exact same work at home.
In 2017, Carnival bartenders told me that they earn an average of US $4,000 per month.

They have even reached $8000 a month during the booze Cruise months.

[RocketMan275]

7 hours ago, drsel said:

I think the bartenders earn 10 times more than the would for the exact same work at home.
In 2017, Carnival bartenders told me that they earn an average of US $4,000 per month.

They have even reached $8000 a month during the booze Cruise months.

One of the bartenders on Freedom of the Seas told us he would make enough money in four cruises to pay for his dream home in Croatia.

[Incognito1]

What is the benefit to prepaying months in advance rather than paying onboard?  Now, if the cruise lines offered a discount to prepay, I'd feel differently.

[sparks1093]

12 hours ago, Incognito1 said:

What is the benefit to prepaying months in advance rather than paying onboard?  Now, if the cruise lines offered a discount to prepay, I'd feel differently.

If there is no benefit to you then obviously it isn't something that you do, if there is a perceived benefit to someone else and they decide to pre-pay then good for them. What one person sees as a benefit isn't necessarily perceived as a benefit by another. (And I haven't seen many people actually pre-paying months in advance since most choose to pre-pay some time within the final payment window.)

[Incognito1]

Sparks, that is what I was asking.  I don't care whether someone prepays or not; just wanting to know the psychology behind it.

 

My partner likes to pay in full for cruises so there's no future worry about it.  Wondering if that was the same driver.  Sure would be nice (and I think beneficial for the cruise lines) to offer some sort of incentive to do so.

[sparks1093]

On 3/26/2021 at 2:21 PM, Incognito1 said:

Sparks, that is what I was asking.  I don't care whether someone prepays or not; just wanting to know the psychology behind it.

 

My partner likes to pay in full for cruises so there's no future worry about it.  Wondering if that was the same driver.  Sure would be nice (and I think beneficial for the cruise lines) to offer some sort of incentive to do so.

When the topic is debated many people fall into your partner's category- they like to pay in full so they don't have to worry. I don't think that enough people are paying substantially early enough for it to pay the cruise line to offer an incentive.

[trtog7]

On 2/10/2020 at 2:03 PM, RocketMan275 said:

I appreciate  your opinion.  When in Scotland, don't tip.  When you're on an American cruise line, you're expected to tip.  When in Rome and all that.

You are expected to tip on all cruises unless they are included and then you have paid them ahead of time