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News on the Westerdam

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Oh my goodness; this is not good! Though it’d good they took the temp of all onboard, we know that some infected people are asymptomatic. Letting them off the ship without gloves or masks, touching the government officials in Cambodia, and then flying in large groups through other countries has now possibly spread the virus exponentially.  I’m hoping not, but it is certainly a risk now. 

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9 minutes ago, SumoCitrus said:

Terrible news about Westerdam. Can someone post its itinerary so we can see where it has been? Sounds like the incubation period might be longer than 14 days.

or more likely you might have some people that hid symptoms hoping that it was just a cold. that can go well past 14 day limit. lots of desire to go home so incentive to deny symptoms.

 

Story about an elderly couple on Diamond that developed symptoms several says ago, but did not report them to medical. Until it got to the point that they had to according to their daughter, also on board.

Edited by npcl

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"On Feb. 10 all 2,257 passengers and crew on board Westerdam were temperature-tested and not one person had an elevated temperature.”    HAL Official Statement, Feb 15
 

 "We appreciate the interest in preventing the spread of covid-19 but any further discrimination toward our guests based on unfounded concerns is inappropriate and may be illegal” — joint statement from HAL & US CDC in letter to passengers, Feb 15.

 

A few questions/comments:


Doesn't the first statement seem a little odd, I can't remember a single cruise where there weren't at least a few passengers with gastro-intestinal or other common ailments that present with mild fevers. Could one achieve that zero elevated result with the aid of fever reducers supplied or recommended by the ship?   

On the second statement, first before threatening with legal action, I'd like to understand why the US CDC (and the WHO) so quickly accepted the results of the tests under their supervision of the first 20 passengers within hours, something that no other country seems to be able to do that quickly.    With the unfortunate benefit of hindsight, and if the preliminary testing of the US national in Malaysia proves correct, it is now clear that the CDC assessment of risk was in fact critically in error.   Wouldn't it have made sense to at least scan everyone for temperatures on exit, instead of hugging, shaking hands and handing out flowers.   Hard to accept that health/safety and not public relations was the #1 priority on disembarkation day, especially given the concern of neighboring states with first hand knowledge of the virus and its risks.

Will the US Ambassador to Cambodia and his entire family have to enter quarantine since they boarded the ship to greet the disembarking passengers?  (see his unfortunately timed twitter post attached).

I do hope everyone on board can get some peace and return home quickly, such a terrible situation for everyone.      We've gone ahead and changed our next HAL booking in March from a non-verandah outside cabin to a larger one with verandah;   we are only cruising in the Americas, but felt this was needed just in case the ship is quarantined as two weeks in a cabin with no direct fresh air is at least by Princess standards a demonstrated health hazard;   CCL have confirmed that their ships do have recirculated air shared between many cabins, contrary to some reports.      We made this change without upgrade offers, but as expected did get some good pricing and it took 2 minutes to change with a HAL pricing specialist by phone despite it being past the final payment period and a discounted only new-booking fare.

We are still very much pro-cruising but with 2% of the HAL/Princess/Cunard/Costa/Carnival fleet now with confirmed infection and 5% quarantined for some periods, it seemed prudent to us to at least lower the cabin infrastructure risk.   We also know now not to trust any public statement by HAL, which is fine I think if you know that going in.

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-15 at 1.08.37 PM.png

Edited by gphb
Fixed formatting of quotes

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OMG

 

Obviously insufficient testing in disembarkation in Combodia.

Lack of precautionary measures by everyone involved was not smart.

 

If the entire story turns out to be true as rreported then faith in CDC is shaken

(was already surprised by "mistake" of releasing infected patient earlier)

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5 hours ago, Minoushka said:

This is the worsepossible news .People had already boarded planes to gohome ..if they were in contact with the infected pax Godhelp us all ...This thing will spread like wildfire 

Question ....why was it not detected sooner ?

people ...crew left behind will nowneed 14 daysincubation minimum ...

how does one keep track of all thepaxwho left Cambodia ?

i hope airports all over the world quarantines all the incoming pax from CambodiaandWesterdam ....this thinghas to be stopped 

iMO all cruising should be restricted ...i for one plan to stay put until this thing is contained ....i really hope this diagnosis is wrong ...she has a cold 

stay away from Asia 

Staying away from Asia wont matter at this point. Control of this virus is lost. It is only a matter of time until we have a pandemic in my opinion. 

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5 hours ago, Fredric22 said:

 

There is no need for these kinds of panicked posts.   500+ people have died of the seasonal flu today alone and 30,000+ people have died so far this season.  There will always be viruses, diseases, etc. around us.  Unless we wrap ourselves up in plastic wrap and stay inside our house, there will always be a risk of catching something.  

Seasonal flu is not even close to this virus. Comparing them is dangerous. Period.

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17 minutes ago, freetalkfreelaugh said:

I am sure Holland will contact all the passengers and ask to self quarantine for 14 days upon arrival.

 

...meanwhile having potentially exposed how many other passengers/staff in airports & hotels? 

 

What a disaster.

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2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

80% of infected are said to show minor symptoms. These minor discomforts can be disguised by cold/flu medication. So, clinical (visual) inspections will only catch the seriously ill.

 

 

 

 

Yeah but 25% of those hospitalized need intensive care. And it still kills 2% of those it infects. 

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2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Yeah but 25% of those hospitalized need intensive care. And it still kills 2% of those it infects. 

The 2% figure is likely very low and misleading.  I understand that is the current death rate divided by the number of new cases on the same day.   With exponential growth, one should divide by the number in the same cohort infected (e.g, 14 days prior).  

 

See latest peer reviewed report Report 4  from WHO Collaborating Centre for Infectious Disease Modelling/MRC/Imperial College London (list of reports at https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/news--wuhan-coronavirus/

They estimate death rate to be 18% (with 95% confidence that it is higher than 11% and less than 81%) in Hubei, and between 1.2 and 5.6% in travelers worldwide outside of mainland China.    I am not an epidemiologist so please do not rely on this interpretation and form your own viewpoint,.

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Not good news but it is hardly unexpected given the timeframe for the virus to show up.

 

self quarantine at home.  Fine, but when we return home it typically involves two or three flights.  Just think about the fellow passengers on those flights who may show similar signs in 10-14 days.  And flights going all over the world.  It could be a disaster.

Edited by iancal

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Since when has China been upfront about anything?  They lie about their economic numbers. Everything is to save face for the communist party.  This virus though not getting much press in United States, this is not the run of the run of the mill flu.  Jennifer lives in New York but has sources in China, things are not as we are being told by officials there in China. 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/jenniferatntd

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, iancal said:

Not good news but it is hardly unexpected given the timeframe for the virus to show up.

 

self quarantine at home.  Fine, but when we return home it typically involves two or three flights.  Just think about the fellow passengers on those flights who may show similar signs in 10-14 days.

After seeing pictures and reading posts from people on the ship self quarantine will not work as some  people don't have the sense they were born with.  All the things below I have seen photos on or people on the ship have discussed themself on their facebook or own twitter accounts

1. passing a banana to an unconnected balcony 

2. Hugging people on deck during deck time (same family different cabin posted the pictures on their facebook)

3. swapping food between cabins (wine swapped for ready made noodle carton- again same family but different cabins)

4. Crew smoking on deck right next to each other.

5. from another thread an on the news CBC (I have removed the names as this point as I cant verify this story other 4 points I can)*****&********* get banned from all Carnival Corp ships for the rest of their lives. They were sick for days before advising the Diamond Princess staff according to their daughter in this article on CBC: "The elderly couple, both 75, had been dealing with symptoms over the last week, daughter *******, told Radio-Canada Saturday morning. 

After a few days dealing with a fever and cough, they contacted the medical centre where they were tested. 

"The worst symptom was definitely weakness. Over the past two days, they were just sleeping,"*****said.

Edited by fragilek

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I can only hope these passengers have been identified and tracked as they make their way home to around the world.  

I read that some flights have been cancelled.  

Does anyone know how many are left in Cambodia or if all flew out to wherever they live?  

This is a nightmare scenario for all involved and perhaps to  communities around the world where these potential carriers live.   

We went on a Transpacific cruise from Shanghai to Vancouver a few years ago.   Most of the passengers had a respiratory illness by the time we got off in Vancouver.  DH commented at the time we were were transporting that virus (thank God not this one) back all over North America.   

Edited by HokiePoq

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I was supposed to be on this cruise, but decided not to go to HK after all the news came out  (CDC and WHO announcements...Also, the 500,000 people from Wuhan for went to HK before quarantine on the 28th of Jan.) I just decided to lose my money and not go, so I have followed this closely.

 

About 800 passengers got on in HK on FEB 1.  Passengers already onboard were allowed to leave the ship and visit HK.  They probably took tours, used public transport and ate while there.  The incubation period is said to be about 14 days(some say up to 24 days).  They would only be reaching the 14 day yesterday.  

 

They first had a sea day, then Manila would not let them port.  They went onto Kaohsiung Taiwan and were able to port for one day and then told to leave.  Since then they have been at sea.  Unable to port anywhere until Cambodia allowed them to.

 

There was no way to test for the virus onboard that I know of while they were at sea.  Maybe temperatures were taken, but as we see with the Diamond Princess, the temperature and the tests themselves need to be confirmed with a second test.  

 

Considering the incubation period is 14 days, they are just now getting the symptoms.  

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I'd forgotten the part about the people already onboard having been allowed to get off for the day in Hong Kong, as @Level six posted upthread.  So many injudicious decisions!

 

In any case, take care of yourselves, CCers.  Time to start eating the colorful foods, taking the vitamins, and all the rest of it that a quick search will suggest as ways to boost immunity.  If it's coming, it's coming; gotta be ready to be well.  

 

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Agree completely.  Sending those cruisers home on public transportation  without any sort of quarantine is shockingly poor judgement.

 

My guess is that HAL wanted to be shot of a huge looming problem ASAP.

Edited by iancal

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Based on what my parents are saying the flights from Cambodia to Malaysia were all chartered flights. Multiple of them got canceled yesterday leaving some on the ship and some in hotels in Phnom Penh. Passengers were kept in a holding area even until Kula Lumpur so there hasn’t been nearly the chance to spread the virus that some are suggesting. 

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1 minute ago, Moparop said:

Based on what my parents are saying the flights from Cambodia to Malaysia were all chartered flights. Multiple of them got canceled yesterday leaving some on the ship and some in hotels in Phnom Penh. Passengers were kept in a holding area even until Kula Lumpur so there hasn’t been nearly the chance to spread the virus that some are suggesting. 

 

Thank you for your report 🙂 

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2 minutes ago, Moparop said:

Based on what my parents are saying the flights from Cambodia to Malaysia were all chartered flights. Multiple of them got canceled yesterday leaving some on the ship and some in hotels in Phnom Penh. Passengers were kept in a holding area even until Kula Lumpur so there hasn’t been nearly the chance to spread the virus that some are suggesting. 

Thank you for that info-  If your parents are caught up in this I hope that they can be safely transported home soon. Does that mean no-one has got any further than Kula Lumpur, are you aware if any further measures are being taken to keep them and those around them as safe as possible until results are confirmed one way or the other.  for example masks issued, told to stay in hotel  room etc.

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Just two thoughts:

- 14 days doesn't matter much if the first person has no symptoms and then passes virus on (let's say) 11th day to another person.

It's 25 days then.

 

- we can actually compare influenza to covid. Imagine that there is a huge number of non-identified cases going on.

I was reading some reports of 100.000 - 200.000 cases last week. 

So it might be not so deadly after all.

I hope.

 

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6 minutes ago, fragilek said:

Thank you for that info-  If your parents are caught up in this I hope that they can be safely transported home soon. Does that mean no-one has got any further than Kula Lumpur, are you aware if any further measures are being taken to keep them and those around them as safe as possible until results are confirmed one way or the other.  for example masks issued, told to stay in hotel  room etc.


Ive been following the Westerdam hashtag pretty closely on Twitter. There’s definitely a group that has flown commercial out of Kula Lumpur on the 14th and perhaps early on the 15th.
 

My parents got to Phnom Penh around 10am and spent the day trying to get on a charter flight or even a commercial flight on their own money and were turned down at every corner. Their statement was that there were “lots of people still at the hotel”.  I’m betting there are even more still sitting in Kula Lumpur. 

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3 minutes ago, dado123456 said:

Just two thoughts:

- 14 days doesn't matter much if the first person has no symptoms and then passes virus on (let's say) 11th day to another person.

It's 25 days then.

 

 

 Exactly 14 days  clock can only start after quarantine measures in place.  Initial infected person may never become symptomatic.

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5 hours ago, Viv0828 said:

 

if that is so and it's old news, what is going to happen with the feb 29 cruise of the westerdam that was going to primarily japanese ports? if the cruise happens, where will it go?

HAL had already cancelled the 14 (or 15) cruise.

 

That is TBD.  HAL has not made any announcements yet.  They probably were waiting to see if Japan would lift the ban.  With this latest news, I imagine HAL will be cancelling the 29 Feb cruise, soon.  I don't think Japan will lifting their ban anytime soon.

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