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16 minutes ago, missalexandra said:

I actually looked this up and learned something

That is a good start.  When you learn a lot you should return here and post facts.

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If you want to kill someone, getting rid of them at sea is still a great choice, especially if your vessel is under the jurisdiction of a country that doesn't have the resources or motivation to care.

 

 

No it isn’t. You are a terrible journalist. A discredit to the craft if you really are a journalist. If the vessel is at sea and the crime is against or by a a US citizen the FBI has jurisdiction. Or if the ship departs or arrives at US port.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, missalexandra said:

Federal over state is true as a general rule but the constitution provides areas where state law dominates and the courts have recognized other exceptions. And in practical terms, it is usually in the interest of both sides to avoid conflict.

 

I actually looked this up and learned something I didn't know: in international waters, laws of the country a ship is flagged under DO apply. So my interpretation of that point was wrong.

 

However, "domestic violence murderers" do indeed toss their spouses overboard. Sometimes they even do it on cruise ships, which are notoriously reluctant to do anything about it.

 

If you want to kill someone, getting rid of them at sea is still a great choice, especially if your vessel is under the jurisdiction of a country that doesn't have the resources or motivation to care.

 

Wow.  Where do I begin with this dumpster fire?

 

If you think cruise lines are so reluctant to do anything about domestic violence murders and you think only the ship's flag has jurisdiction at sea, you might want to look up Ken Manzanares.  Better yet, you might want to call the FBI, US Coast Guard, US Attorney's Office and the country of Bermuda, and tell them we had no jurisdiction in the arrest and subsequent conviction on Mr. Manzanares for killing his wife at sea on the Bermuda flagged Emerald Princess.  

 

And while you're at it, call the Southern District of Florida and tell them they had no jurisdiction to arrest, convict and sentence Mr. Ketut Pujayasa, an Indonesian, for the brutal beating, rape, and attempted murder of a US citizen at sea on the Dutch flagged Nieuw Amsterdam. 

 

And here's another little fun fact for you.  On cruises that start and end in the state of Florida, the state can actually arrest for cases of domestic violence that occurred on the high seas.  So not only is there US federal jurisdiction if it involves US citizens, but the state can charge.  The state piece was challenged and ultimately upheld (state v stepansky). 

 

I have been working with the cruise industry for decades and not once.....NOT ONCE....were they uncooperative, nor were they reluctant to participate in the prosecution of violent assaults, domestic or otherwise.  

 

Do some crimes go un-prosecuted?  Sure.  But that has NOTHING to do with cruise line reluctance.  It's that little thing we call probable cause....you know, the burden of proof.    

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47 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

No it isn’t. You are a terrible journalist. A discredit to the craft if you really are a journalist. If the vessel is at sea and the crime is against or by a a US citizen the FBI has jurisdiction. Or if the ship departs or arrives at US port.

 

 

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Charles,

She may or may not be a terrible journalist. I really do not know or care.

But she makes an excellent point about committing murder at sea.

You are indeed correct that the FBI is technically and legally involved if an American is part of the crime.

You are also correct that the previous or next port being in the USA can also involve them.

Technically and legally, the FBI should be involved in those cases.

Realistically, they often decline to get involved - unless the crime involves a high profile name.

 

In my nearly 40 years managing Cruise Ships, I have unfortunately been in the middle of many deaths at sea. Most were not suspicious, and did not warrant a visit from the Police or FBI. But there were a surprising number that definitely could have used some sort of investigation. In every suspicious case where FBI investigation was a possibility, we contacted them, but they refused to get involved. We heard many excuses; "Too far away, budget cuts, too busy investigating other crimes, call the local police when you get into port (they were not interested either), we will call you back later". In some of those cases, I believe that passengers got away with murder. But we will never know for sure.

 

Her statement: If you want to kill someone, getting rid of them at sea is still a great choice, especially if your vessel is under the jurisdiction of a country that doesn't have the resources or motivation to care.

She was correct.

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2 minutes ago, Donald said:

 

She was correct.


But she said it was the cruise ships who are reluctant to act, not the authorities. As a manager of cruise ships, you agree with her?

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Okay, even though Paul is trying his hardest to get through, I'll wade in to help.

 

As you have found out, yes, when a ship is in international waters, the laws of the flag state apply.  However, what you have not researched is "port state jurisdiction" where the term "port state" does not refer to a state of the US, but the nation (state) where the port is located.  When a ship is in a port in a country that is not the country where the ship is flagged (i.e., in a port "foreign" to the ship, or a US port for a Bahamian flag ship), there is overlap of jurisdiction between the flag state and the port state.  This is a very gray area, and a continually evolving area, of maritime law, which takes precedence over US state or federal law, since it involves two nations ("port state" and "flag state").  The most common guiding principal of port state jurisdiction is that whatever happens internally on the ship is under the jurisdiction of the flag state, regardless of what the laws are in the port the ship is in.  If something happens that affects the safety or "good harmony" of the port, then the port state can impose it's laws on the ship.  This is things like charging taxes (as this is international commerce), pollution, and criminal offenses.  An exception to the flag state laws applying in international waters, comes when the US has claimed "extraterritorial jurisdiction" over certain crimes against US citizens, if they happen in international waters, and not in the jurisdiction of another nation (i.e. not in the territorial waters of another country).  If a crime against a US citizen happens on a cruise ship while it is docked in the Bahamas, the US can request to be a party to the investigation, but cannot conduct their own investigation, and only the port state where the crime happened can prosecute the case.

 

A foreign flag cruise ship that enters the US from a foreign port is subject to federal customs inspection and customs/DEA searches as they want.  Once docked, the Captain can request outside assistance from a US local, state, or federal law enforcement agency to search for drugs, and then the Captain will decide whether to turn the case over to those local, state, or federal agencies for prosecution.

 

Now, is there zero tolerance for CBD products onboard?  Yes.  Why? One main reason is that all crew are subject to random drug testing, and it has been found that casual use of CBD products can trigger a positive drug test.  But, you say, CBD does not contain any THC, the label says so.  Well, since CBD products are not approved by the FDA, there is no testing or inspection to ensure the quality of the product, and even minute quantities of THC can trigger a positive drug test.  A positive drug test results in immediate dismissal of the crew, and typically at least a suspension of their merchant mariner document.  What does this have to do with passengers?  The ships don't want any possibility of "cross contamination" between passengers and crew.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, even though Paul is trying his hardest to get through, I'll wade in to help.

 

As you have found out, yes, when a ship is in international waters, the laws of the flag state apply.  However, what you have not researched is "port state jurisdiction" where the term "port state" does not refer to a state of the US, but the nation (state) where the port is located.  When a ship is in a port in a country that is not the country where the ship is flagged (i.e., in a port "foreign" to the ship, or a US port for a Bahamian flag ship), there is overlap of jurisdiction between the flag state and the port state.  This is a very gray area, and a continually evolving area, of maritime law, which takes precedence over US state or federal law, since it involves two nations ("port state" and "flag state").  The most common guiding principal of port state jurisdiction is that whatever happens internally on the ship is under the jurisdiction of the flag state, regardless of what the laws are in the port the ship is in.  If something happens that affects the safety or "good harmony" of the port, then the port state can impose it's laws on the ship.  This is things like charging taxes (as this is international commerce), pollution, and criminal offenses.  An exception to the flag state laws applying in international waters, comes when the US has claimed "extraterritorial jurisdiction" over certain crimes against US citizens, if they happen in international waters, and not in the jurisdiction of another nation (i.e. not in the territorial waters of another country).  If a crime against a US citizen happens on a cruise ship while it is docked in the Bahamas, the US can request to be a party to the investigation, but cannot conduct their own investigation, and only the port state where the crime happened can prosecute the case.

 

A foreign flag cruise ship that enters the US from a foreign port is subject to federal customs inspection and customs/DEA searches as they want.  Once docked, the Captain can request outside assistance from a US local, state, or federal law enforcement agency to search for drugs, and then the Captain will decide whether to turn the case over to those local, state, or federal agencies for prosecution.

 

Now, is there zero tolerance for CBD products onboard?  Yes.  Why? One main reason is that all crew are subject to random drug testing, and it has been found that casual use of CBD products can trigger a positive drug test.  But, you say, CBD does not contain any THC, the label says so.  Well, since CBD products are not approved by the FDA, there is no testing or inspection to ensure the quality of the product, and even minute quantities of THC can trigger a positive drug test.  A positive drug test results in immediate dismissal of the crew, and typically at least a suspension of their merchant mariner document.  What does this have to do with passengers?  The ships don't want any possibility of "cross contamination" between passengers and crew.

 

An exceptional summation.

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, even though Paul is trying his hardest to get through, I'll wade in to help.

 

As you have found out, yes, when a ship is in international waters, the laws of the flag state apply.  However, what you have not researched is "port state jurisdiction" where the term "port state" does not refer to a state of the US, but the nation (state) where the port is located.  When a ship is in a port in a country that is not the country where the ship is flagged (i.e., in a port "foreign" to the ship, or a US port for a Bahamian flag ship), there is overlap of jurisdiction between the flag state and the port state.  This is a very gray area, and a continually evolving area, of maritime law, which takes precedence over US state or federal law, since it involves two nations ("port state" and "flag state").  The most common guiding principal of port state jurisdiction is that whatever happens internally on the ship is under the jurisdiction of the flag state, regardless of what the laws are in the port the ship is in.  If something happens that affects the safety or "good harmony" of the port, then the port state can impose it's laws on the ship.  This is things like charging taxes (as this is international commerce), pollution, and criminal offenses.  An exception to the flag state laws applying in international waters, comes when the US has claimed "extraterritorial jurisdiction" over certain crimes against US citizens, if they happen in international waters, and not in the jurisdiction of another nation (i.e. not in the territorial waters of another country).  If a crime against a US citizen happens on a cruise ship while it is docked in the Bahamas, the US can request to be a party to the investigation, but cannot conduct their own investigation, and only the port state where the crime happened can prosecute the case.

 

A foreign flag cruise ship that enters the US from a foreign port is subject to federal customs inspection and customs/DEA searches as they want.  Once docked, the Captain can request outside assistance from a US local, state, or federal law enforcement agency to search for drugs, and then the Captain will decide whether to turn the case over to those local, state, or federal agencies for prosecution.

 

Now, is there zero tolerance for CBD products onboard?  Yes.  Why? One main reason is that all crew are subject to random drug testing, and it has been found that casual use of CBD products can trigger a positive drug test.  But, you say, CBD does not contain any THC, the label says so.  Well, since CBD products are not approved by the FDA, there is no testing or inspection to ensure the quality of the product, and even minute quantities of THC can trigger a positive drug test.  A positive drug test results in immediate dismissal of the crew, and typically at least a suspension of their merchant mariner document.  What does this have to do with passengers?  The ships don't want any possibility of "cross contamination" between passengers and crew.

Again, you raise the bar in these threads ...

CBD products in my state can contain THC since marijuana and its by products are completely legal...  

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, even though Paul is trying his hardest to get through, I'll wade in to help.

 

.  An exception to the flag state laws applying in international waters, comes when the US has claimed "extraterritorial jurisdiction" over certain crimes against US citizens, if they happen in international waters, and not in the jurisdiction of another nation (i.e. not in the territorial waters of another country). 

 

Thanks Chief.  I actually typed SMTJ (18USC7) into my last post but then deleted it.  I figured if layman's terms have been lost thus far, the statute would be totally lost.   

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40 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Thanks Chief.  I actually typed SMTJ (18USC7) into my last post but then deleted it.  I figured if layman's terms have been lost thus far, the statute would be totally lost.   

No, worries, Paul.  I know the USCG has issued warnings that mariners have failed drug tests after using CBD products, and all of the unions have forwarded these to us, so not worth the hassle.  Though come Aug 15, 2021, I won't have to worry about DOT drug testing anymore  😮

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

No, worries, Paul.  I know the USCG has issued warnings that mariners have failed drug tests after using CBD products, and all of the unions have forwarded these to us, so not worth the hassle.  Though come Aug 15, 2021, I won't have to worry about DOT drug testing anymore  😮

Congrats!  Plan on taking up  pleasure cruising?  Most of us owe you a beer

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2 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Congrats!  Plan on taking up  pleasure cruising?  Most of us owe you a beer

I cruise on occasion, but I don't tend to advertise myself, as I don't want the calls in the middle of the night to fix a toilet  😁

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4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I cruise on occasion, but I don't tend to advertise myself, as I don't want the calls in the middle of the night to fix a toilet  😁

Those are the calls I get.....!

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 5:34 PM, chengkp75 said:

I cruise on occasion, but I don't tend to advertise myself, as I don't want the calls in the middle of the night to fix a toilet  😁

 

If we ever end up in the same place at the same time, I would love to buy you a drink or three, and just chat.

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On 5/28/2020 at 2:34 PM, chengkp75 said:

I cruise on occasion, but I don't tend to advertise myself, as I don't want the calls in the middle of the night to fix a toilet  😁

I would so love to meet you on a cruise one day.

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 2:34 PM, chengkp75 said:

I cruise on occasion, but I don't tend to advertise myself, as I don't want the calls in the middle of the night to fix a toilet  😁

 

....due to someone having to flush their CBD because they relied on some tabloid article for legality.  :classic_tongue:

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8 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

....due to someone having to flush their CBD because they relied on some tabloid article for legality.  :classic_tongue:

That would be a whole lotta gummies  😮

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Great info discussed on this thread.  Thanks to all who have contributed;  My take away from reading this forum.  Do not bring CBD on your next cruise.  Have a great day everyone.  Cheers

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6 hours ago, AF-1 said:

Great info discussed on this thread.  Thanks to all who have contributed;  My take away from reading this forum.  Do not bring CBD on your next cruise.  Have a great day everyone.  Cheers

 

Winner winner, chicken dinner.  The issue is not how unlikely you are to be caught, it is what happens to your life if you are.  I bet the Molotov cocktail throwing lawyers thought they would never be caught, but they were - and now between felony charges, prison, and disbarment their lives are destroyed.

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take your stuff .. roll the dice .....

 

I've experienced the courts outside of the US ... as an arresting officer and/or witness (USCG often works as an agent of the flag state of the vessel) .....

 

Wanna go to court out of the US for a drug issue?  Have a nice day!  You might get lucky ..... and you might be screwed.  

 

In my first experience I went to a Bahama trial (arresting officer) .... the 'defendants' spoke only spanish ... they met their court appointed defense lawyer in the courtroom ... who did not speak spanish.  The judge did not think this was a problem and the trial continued ...

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21 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

Wanna go to court out of the US for a drug issue?  Have a nice day!  You might get lucky ..... and you might be screwed.  

 

I worked with a guy years ago, that spent time on an American commune in Turkey.  They had some things stolen, so they called the police.  They expected at some point, one officer would show up, take a report, and that would be it.  Like in the US.

 

About 45 minutes later, a bus shows up with a number of officers.  After they explain the situation to the officer in charge, he said something to the others.  And they took off to search the area.  A while later they come back, with this person and some items.

 

They showed the items to the Americans, who identified their things.

 

The lead officer says something to the others, and the began to beat the man.  The Americans protested, and the officer explained.  That in Turkey, when they caught someone with proof of the crime, they beat them.  WHEN they went to prison, they would be beaten.  And the last thing before they were released from prison, they were beaten.

 

Yeap, you really want to be arrested outside the US.

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