I heard a real quick discussion of whether the government should save the cruise industry

[navybankerteacher]

Back on topic: saving the cruise industry.  The cruise industry will have to sink or swim on its own.  

1)The “cruise industry” is composed of foreign corporate entities which have contributed virtually nothing in tax revenues, so the US govt. owes it nothing.

2) The “cruise industry” provides a service which, while enjoyable, is hardly necessary.

3) There are, and will be, far more pressing demands for assistance:  individual US citizens who have lost their incomes and legitimate (and essential) businesses large and small whose revenue streams have been seriously disrupted.

4) Most obvious is the fact that, if and when there is a resurgent demand for cruises, the ships will be there. They will be put to use. The only variable is who will profit from the activity: the current equity owners or new investors who will by them from the current equity owners.

5) Better that some stockholders might lose their equity than that the wider population not be helped.  Any stockholder who was too heavily invested could be wiped out - but that is part of equity ownership.

 

It is absurd to consider US government expenditure of any amount to “save” the current equity owners - as the “industry” will survive (if at all needed) on its own.

[drsel]

All valid points, but we really wish them to survive this crisis

[pacruise804]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:46 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have zero interest in domestic travel. I have not spent money on it in the last decade and would not if cruising were available or not. 

 

I assume domestic travel means US (I didn't see a location on your avatar).  Are there truly no historical or architectural interests for you in this country?  It's fine if there aren't, I just would have thought there might be some appeal to New Orleans (or similar) or possibly DC.  I'm curious, but nunya (non of your business 😉 ) is a totally acceptable answer too 🙂 

 

There are certainly areas of the country many deem "must do's" that I have little to no interest in visiting. There are probably enough areas domestically that do appeal I doubt I could see them all in my lifetime - very few of them have the ocean appeal of cruising though.

[cruisemom42]

1 minute ago, pacruise804 said:

 

I assume domestic travel means US (I didn't see a location on your avatar).  Are there truly no historical or architectural interests for you in this country?  It's fine if there aren't, I just would have thought there might be some appeal to New Orleans (or similar) or possibly DC.  I'm curious, but nunya (non of your business 😉 ) is a totally acceptable answer too 🙂 

 

There are certainly areas of the country many deem "must do's" that I have little to no interest in visiting. There are probably enough areas domestically that do appeal I doubt I could see them all in my lifetime - very few of them have the ocean appeal of cruising though.

 

Yeah, after I posted, I realized I could have worded that better.  I'm from the US but prefer not to list my location.

 

Let's just say I have spent a fair amount of time traveling the US in younger years and for work. I have my favorite cities (New Orleans would be one for sure, NYC, Boston, Seattle...) but I don't really consider myself a 'tourist' there.

 

Not for lack of trying, but natural wonders hold no real draw for me. I am drawn to human history, art, achievements, and not natural history or beauty. 

 

And I've been heavily focused for years on the great ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean -- Egyptian, Greek, Hellenic, Roman, even Phoenician & Hittite. It's not my job, just my "armchair hobby".  I'm not terribly interested in any history that happened after approximately 400 AD, give or take, except for a few odd little pockets here and there...

 

So I guess you could say I'm a very focused individual, if being kind, or blindered, if not being so kind. 

 

[ed01106]

17 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yeah, after I posted, I realized I could have worded that better.  I'm from the US but prefer not to list my location.

 

Let's just say I have spent a fair amount of time traveling the US in younger years and for work. I have my favorite cities (New Orleans would be one for sure, NYC, Boston, Seattle...) but I don't really consider myself a 'tourist' there.

 

Not for lack of trying, but natural wonders hold no real draw for me. I am drawn to human history, art, achievements, and not natural history or beauty. 

 

And I've been heavily focused for years on the great ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean -- Egyptian, Greek, Hellenic, Roman, even Phoenician & Hittite. It's not my job, just my "armchair hobby".  I'm not terribly interested in any history that happened after approximately 400 AD, give or take, except for a few odd little pockets here and there...

 

So I guess you could say I'm a very focused individual, if being kind, or blindered, if not being so kind. 

 

So you switching from med cruises to land based europe tours will have zero impact on the US economy.

[donaldsc]

On 3/21/2020 at 1:30 PM, navybankerteacher said:

Back on topic: saving the cruise industry.  The cruise industry will have to sink or swim on its own.  

1)The “cruise industry” is composed of foreign corporate entities which have contributed virtually nothing in tax revenues, so the US govt. owes it nothing.

2) The “cruise industry” provides a service which, while enjoyable, is hardly necessary.

3) There are, and will be, far more pressing demands for assistance:  individual US citizens who have lost their incomes and legitimate (and essential) businesses large and small whose revenue streams have been seriously disrupted.

4) Most obvious is the fact that, if and when there is a resurgent demand for cruises, the ships will be there. They will be put to use. The only variable is who will profit from the activity: the current equity owners or new investors who will by them from the current equity owners.

5) Better that some stockholders might lose their equity than that the wider population not be helped.  Any stockholder who was too heavily invested could be wiped out - but that is part of equity ownership.

 

It is absurd to consider US government expenditure of any amount to “save” the current equity owners - as the “industry” will survive (if at all needed) on its own.

 

Well said.  Add to that 2 things.

 

1) Most of the employees of the cruise lines are not Americans who do not pay any taxes to the US.  .  While I certainly feel sorry for them, their economic status is basically not my problem.  We don't have to spend American money to save foreign jobs.  

 

2) Suppose that the cruise lines go bankrupt.  That is the chance you take when you buy stocks.   As you say, they ships will still be there and will be sold to the highest bidders.  The new owners of the ships will get the ships at discounted prices which just might reduce the cruise costs for all of us.

 

DON

[cruisemom42]

22 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

So you switching from med cruises to land based europe tours will have zero impact on the US economy.

 

Correct. And I have always done both tours and cruises. I like both. Land tours allow more depth, but there is something grand about setting out on a voyage (especially since that is how so much of travel took place in ancient times....)

 

[donaldsc]

On 3/21/2020 at 1:54 AM, drsel said:

By car or taxi. So less human to human proximity or contact

 

Although I have no data to support this, I would suspect that many people who drive taxis and especially uber cars are not doing it now because they are afraid of getting affected by their passengers.

 

DON

[ed01106]

38 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

Although I have no data to support this, I would suspect that many people who drive taxis and especially uber cars are not doing it now because they are afraid of getting affected by their passengers.

 

DON

I don’t have any data, but antidotal conversation with two friends that lost their bartending jobs and are now doing uber to make up lost income suggests it might be the opposite on the supply side.  Although both are doing mostly delivering food from restaurants rather than transporting people.  (And they prefer it that way, less contact)

[chipmaster]

1 hour ago, donaldsc said:

 

Although I have no data to support this, I would suspect that many people who drive taxis and especially uber cars are not doing it now because they are afraid of getting affected by their passengers.

 

DON

 

No, there are a few articles already about the many uber/lyft drivers in places like bay area, with shelter at home, nobody is taking them to work/errands etc.   Yes you could get infected, but more relevant and real is the plummeting demand.

[babs135]

Or does the writer have a point? Have the cruise lines behaved badly?

 

https://slate.com/business/2020/03/cruise-industry-bailout-no-way.html

[clo]

Doesn't sound like bashing to me. Sounds like the truth.

[ducklite]

On 3/21/2020 at 4:54 AM, drsel said:

By car or taxi. So less human to human proximity or contact

Most people who live in major metro areas don’t own a car.  A taxi could eat up half of the days take home pay for the cleaners and carer staff. Not a viable solution. 

[ducklite]

3 hours ago, ed01106 said:

So you switching from med cruises to land based europe tours will have zero impact on the US economy.

Some of us have traveled extensively in the US and have very little left that we care to see.  

[ducklite]

On 3/21/2020 at 11:19 AM, ed01106 said:

Okay.  

 

However, a few individuals don’t matter.  

 

Are you someone who spends the night before in a hotel before sailing from a US port?
 

if yes, then for you and 6 other people just like you we need one person to switch from a cruise to a one week land based vacation for no net loss or gain.

 

If no,  you cruise internationally, there absolutely no loss to the US economy.

 

If no, you fly in the day of the cruise than there will be a minuscule economic loss.

 

OTOH, if you choose to stay home than that will be a small economic boost to your hometown economy. 

Like 

 

On 3/21/2020 at 4:55 AM, drsel said:

Other office goers have to work from home

not an option for many. People who work in banks restocking ATM’s or cashing paychecks, people who work in law enforcement. How about the people who work in facilities and security at large buildings.  They are essential even if the only thing they do is sit in a security office watching videos the entire time. 

[clo]

2 hours ago, ducklite said:

Some of us have traveled extensively in the US and have very little left that we care to see.  

Not understanding what you're saying here.

[sonomaphil]

I've taken many cruises, but the US should not bailout this industry.  Let them sink or swim alone.  They picked their business model. 

[sparks1093]

9 hours ago, clo said:

Not understanding what you're saying here.

Sounds like she's saying that she's traveled the US and doesn't have the need for such travel as she has seen all that she wishes to see. As @cruisemom42 makes clear everyone has different tastes when it comes to what they want to see while on vacation. Some people are enthralled by large balls of string, some are enthralled by art, others by a large hole in the ground, etc. 

[drsel]

14 hours ago, babs135 said:

Or does the writer have a point? Have the cruise lines behaved badly?

 

https://slate.com/business/2020/03/cruise-industry-bailout-no-way.html

It's realistic

[drsel]

11 hours ago, sonomaphil said:

I've taken many cruises, but the US should not bailout this industry.  Let them sink or swim alone.  They picked their business model. 

I don't think anyone will bail out The Cruise industry.

Did it happen after 911 or after the 2008 recession?

[ducklite]

11 hours ago, clo said:

Not understanding what you're saying here.

I'm saying that I have traveled throughout the US, the biggest cities and the smallest backwaters.  There isn't much more that I really want to see that I haven't in the US, which is why I have been working my way through the European countries, and plan on continuing to do so as soon as it's safe to.  

[drsel]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the ocean

[navybankerteacher]

8 minutes ago, drsel said:

I don't think anyone will bail out The Cruise industry.

Did it happen after 911 or after the 2008 recession?

Not really relevant - cruise companies went through hard times - along with many other enterprises, but came out OK.

 

 A better comparison is airlines - American Airlines, Delta, United and others which many CC’er fly are all post-bankruptcy.  They went through the tank - no bail out for the equity owners.  GM and Chrysler went through bankruptcy - assisted by US funding — but nothing for the equity owners (or much for bond holders) - we still have airlines and auto makers - both industries are more vital to US economy than cruising.

 

 

[drsel]

Agreed, cruises are not essential.

What actually happened to the airlines and Cruises after 9/11 and 2008?

Which particular Airlines and cruise lines went bankrupt?

How much did airfares and Cruise fares crash

 

[clo]

2 hours ago, ducklite said:

I'm saying that I have traveled throughout the US, the biggest cities and the smallest backwaters.  There isn't much more that I really want to see that I haven't in the US, which is why I have been working my way through the European countries, and plan on continuing to do so as soon as it's safe to.  

But that has nothing really to do with cruising but rather travel in general, right? And one certainly can't see all or even much of Europe on a cruise. So is that what you're saying?