Urgent - Ruby Princess 3 people infected - Urgent Tracking of Passengers

[Aus Traveller]

28 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Thank you for your comments, just as I thought.
Also not to be forgotten on the 18th/19th March is the human factor where there were most definitely passengers who KNEW they were sick but didn’t want to notify medical because

1. It costs to see the Doctors on the ship and

2. By that time everyone just wanted to get off and head home

How will they factor this element in to their Criminal inquiry??

Because sure as ships - no one will admit to any symptoms when they debarked. Same as no one is ever sick when they board!!

I agree with your comments about people not going to the medical centre. We don't but we have a reason.

 

When we cruise we take with us antibiotics prescribed by our doctors. They know what strength we (particularly me) require to overcome a secondary infection. We do not take them until we require them. The medical centre doesn't have our medical histories and I can guarantee that they would not start with the strength of antibiotics that we require. I haven't been game to see if they will follow a letter from my doctor. It is simpler to take my own medications. Another plus: I don't have to wait in line for hours at the medical centre. If I decide I need the antibiotics, I can start taking it immediately. My doctor is all for this approach as she knows I won't take the antibiotics unnecessarily.

 

When we were on the Grand Princess in 2013, I estimate that at least one-third of the passengers had a really bad 'wog'. People were lined up at the medical centre. They were prescribing antihistimines !!, then the next day when the passenger returned, they were given 500mg amoxyllin. If I had gone on that route I would have had pneumonia by day two.

[OzKiwiJJ]

25 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I agree with your comments about people not going to the medical centre. We don't but we have a reason.

 

When we cruise we take with us antibiotics prescribed by our doctors. They know what strength we (particularly me) require to overcome a secondary infection. We do not take them until we require them. The medical centre doesn't have our medical histories and I can guarantee that they would not start with the strength of antibiotics that we require. I haven't been game to see if they will follow a letter from my doctor. It is simpler to take my own medications. Another plus: I don't have to wait in line for hours at the medical centre. If I decide I need the antibiotics, I can start taking it immediately. My doctor is all for this approach as she knows I won't take the antibiotics unnecessarily.

 

When we were on the Grand Princess in 2013, I estimate that at least one-third of the passengers had a really bad 'wog'. People were lined up at the medical centre. They were prescribing antihistimines !!, then the next day when the passenger returned, they were given 500mg amoxyllin. If I had gone on that route I would have had pneumonia by day two.

The only time I've been to the Medical Centre on a cruise was when I developed what was thought to be an abcess in a delicate part of my body - it turned out to be a cyst. They put me on IV antibiotics twice a day which, as it turned out, weren't needed.

 

Like you, my GP has prescribed two types of antibiotics to take on cruises. One type is the only type that works when I get bacterial chest infection, the other is more generic. He trusts me to know when to use them but I do err on the cautious side over use of antibiotics and did get told off by him for not using the generic one once.

 

There is always something going around on cruise ships, not surprising given the number of people who move through the relatively small amount of public space each day, and given the number of passengers who have no clue about hygiene. Plus there are accidents, people slipping and breaking a bone or twisting an ankle, and plain old seasickness. If the number quoted for Ruby's previous cruise, 158 people who visited the medical centre which is where I presume they got that info from, then that isn't an outrageous number, in fact it's possibly a bit on the low side given they had four days on the Tasman Sea.

[DiamondFour]

Its clear NSW Health have some serious questions to answer. Why were they not listed as the focus also of the criminal investigation?

 

This is leading to all sorts of speculation and theories which may or may not be true. If the NSW police truly were impartial then they would investigate all government departments as well as the cruise line together. This makes the police look corrupt and incompetent.

 

As I said in my very first post on this forum the blame belongs to china. It is their virus, their fault, their silence, their denials, their negligence, their blame game. I swear on my life and my families life that as long as I live and international travel ever resumes that I will never visit china ever again in my life. It is their fault collectively as a culture for allowing those filthy disgusting markets and wild animal trade to exist despite strong scientific evidence of how dangerous they are and having being linked to previous SARs outbreaks and more. The blame belongs entirely to china.

 

 

[MicCanberra]

Are you saying the Chinese are controlling the NSW Government?

[Porky55]

Interesting counter point to the often quoted 🤔

From Traveller.com.au -

“The phrase "petri dish" became an instant cliché associated with cruise ships as the infection rate, and death toll, mounted - even though a ski resort in Austria has also proved as effective an incubator, with as many as 2500 cases reported from it.”

https://www.traveller.com.au/cruise-ships-and-coronavirus-how-cruising-can-navigate-out-of-its-sea-of-pain-h1n40t

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Porky55

[MicCanberra]

1 hour ago, Porky55 said:

Interesting counter point to the often quoted 🤔

From Traveller.com.au -

“The phrase "petri dish" became an instant cliché associated with cruise ships as the infection rate, and death toll, mounted - even though a ski resort in Austria has also proved as effective an incubator, with as many as 2500 cases reported from it.”

https://www.traveller.com.au/cruise-ships-and-coronavirus-how-cruising-can-navigate-out-of-its-sea-of-pain-h1n40t

 

 

Yes, agreed.

[Pushka]

I cannot believe, on the Princess Board, that people are asking whether a May Alaska cruise on Ruby will proceed. Many seem obvious to the fact that Alaskan ports are closed until July, let alone the awfulness of what is happening currently. 

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

I cannot believe, on the Princess Board, that people are asking whether a May Alaska cruise on Ruby will proceed. Many seem obvious to the fact that Alaskan ports are closed until July, let alone the awfulness of what is happening currently. 

What rock are they living under???

[Pushka]

1 minute ago, Aus Traveller said:

What rock are they living under???

 

I dont think they even know what is happening outside their own county! Well, I clicked funny but to think this Country is a first world power, its scarey. I was going to say if USA sneezes we catch the flu, well, not the right quote just yet, is it. 🤔

Edited April 7, 2020 by Pushka

[Vader1111]

4 hours ago, Porky55 said:

Interesting counter point to the often quoted 🤔

From Traveller.com.au -

“The phrase "petri dish" became an instant cliché associated with cruise ships as the infection rate, and death toll, mounted - even though a ski resort in Austria has also proved as effective an incubator, with as many as 2500 cases reported from it.”

https://www.traveller.com.au/cruise-ships-and-coronavirus-how-cruising-can-navigate-out-of-its-sea-of-pain-h1n40t

 

 

Meh... I refer to them as big white virus incubators.

[MicCanberra]

11 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

Meh... I refer to them as big white virus incubators.

I don't think the ski chalets are white, they would be very hard to see in a blizzard.

[nnps]

14 hours ago, DiamondFour said:

Its clear NSW Health have some serious questions to answer. Why were they not listed as the focus also of the criminal investigation?

 

This is leading to all sorts of speculation and theories which may or may not be true. If the NSW police truly were impartial then they would investigate all government departments as well as the cruise line together. This makes the police look corrupt and incompetent.

 

As I said in my very first post on this forum the blame belongs to china. It is their virus, their fault, their silence, their denials, their negligence, their blame game. I swear on my life and my families life that as long as I live and international travel ever resumes that I will never visit china ever again in my life. It is their fault collectively as a culture for allowing those filthy disgusting markets and wild animal trade to exist despite strong scientific evidence of how dangerous they are and having being linked to previous SARs outbreaks and more. The blame belongs entirely to china.

 

 

When you make claims like those above that I have made bold, you lose all credibility. This virus belongs to no one person or nation, it belongs to all of us.

[Aus Traveller]

Here is a report from the NSW Health Department dated 3rd April. It is a much more balanced view compared with the Minister for Health's interviews where he is trying to blame the ship. (I am posting the report rather than a link because it is easier for people to read and sometimes links don't work properly.)

 

Ruby Princess update

03 April 2020

To date there have been 342 confirmed cases of COVID-19 diagnosed in NSW in passengers who all acquired their infection while on, or in some cases, possibly before boarding the Ruby Princess cruise.

Transmission of COVID-19 amongst these passengers could not have been prevented by NSW Health staff. No cases of COVID-19 were identified on board the ship before it docked.

The vast majority of these passengers reported they did not develop symptoms until after leaving the Ruby Princess.

All passengers were advised to self-isolate for 14 days following disembarkation, which NSW Health has confirmed was provided by the Federal Department of Agriculture, Water and Environment.

Probable secondary transmission has been limited to 11 confirmed cases as of 3 April.

International experience shows COVID-19 can rapidly spread among passengers if left on board, so self-isolation at home is a much safer option than leaving passengers on board.

NSW Health had prepared plans in the event COVID-19 being identified on a cruise ship.

On this particular voyage, it was known that influenza activity had been identified on the ship.

The Ruby Princess was assessed as low risk, based on the level of illness on board, the negative COVID-19 tests done on passengers while in New Zealand, and the positive influenza tests done on a large proportion of the passengers with influenza like illness.

The risk assessment process recognised that there is no “no risk” setting for COVID-19, but balanced the level of risk against the benefit of removing passengers from a cruise ship on which the virus could be circulating.

Rapid influenza tests identify only a proportion of people who actually have the infection, meaning some people return a negative result even though they are infected with the flu. The illness and test results identified on board was consistent with influenza.

This is reflected in email correspondence between NSW Health and the ship’s doctor on the Ruby Princess who confirmed influenza was circulating on the cruise. However, in two sick patients referenced in the email, although they had tested negative to influenza, the cause of their respiratory infection was consistent with influenza for which they were receiving treatment.

The reasons for ambulance transport requested by the treating doctor to NSW Health’s assessment panel, were, one passenger had a heart condition likely caused by an infection which was responding to influenza treatment, and the second passenger was suffering severe lower back pain but was also receiving treatment for flu.

Under the Commonwealth Department of Health cruise protocols, an ILI outbreak is defined when ‘more than one per cent of the ships total passengers and crew have an influenza like illness’.

The Ruby Princess had 2647 passengers and 1148 crew. The ship reported to NSW Health there were 104 acute respiratory infections of which 36 people had presented to the ship’s clinic with influenza like illness during the cruise and its numbers fell short of the definition of an ‘outbreak’.

The Commonwealth Department of Health protocol on managing novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19 risk from cruise ship) states “provided there are no concerns about the COVID-19 risk profile of the ship or suspected COVID-19 cases reported …the ship may be allowed to continue voyage while samples are tested”.

[NSWP]

39 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Here is a report from the NSW Health Department dated 3rd April. It is a much more balanced view compared with the Minister for Health's interviews where he is trying to blame the ship. (I am posting the report rather than a link because it is easier for people to read and sometimes links don't work properly.)

 

Ruby Princess update

03 April 2020

To date there have been 342 confirmed cases of COVID-19 diagnosed in NSW in passengers who all acquired their infection while on, or in some cases, possibly before boarding the Ruby Princess cruise.

Transmission of COVID-19 amongst these passengers could not have been prevented by NSW Health staff. No cases of COVID-19 were identified on board the ship before it docked.

The vast majority of these passengers reported they did not develop symptoms until after leaving the Ruby Princess.

All passengers were advised to self-isolate for 14 days following disembarkation, which NSW Health has confirmed was provided by the Federal Department of Agriculture, Water and Environment.

Probable secondary transmission has been limited to 11 confirmed cases as of 3 April.

International experience shows COVID-19 can rapidly spread among passengers if left on board, so self-isolation at home is a much safer option than leaving passengers on board.

NSW Health had prepared plans in the event COVID-19 being identified on a cruise ship.

On this particular voyage, it was known that influenza activity had been identified on the ship.

The Ruby Princess was assessed as low risk, based on the level of illness on board, the negative COVID-19 tests done on passengers while in New Zealand, and the positive influenza tests done on a large proportion of the passengers with influenza like illness.

The risk assessment process recognised that there is no “no risk” setting for COVID-19, but balanced the level of risk against the benefit of removing passengers from a cruise ship on which the virus could be circulating.

Rapid influenza tests identify only a proportion of people who actually have the infection, meaning some people return a negative result even though they are infected with the flu. The illness and test results identified on board was consistent with influenza.

This is reflected in email correspondence between NSW Health and the ship’s doctor on the Ruby Princess who confirmed influenza was circulating on the cruise. However, in two sick patients referenced in the email, although they had tested negative to influenza, the cause of their respiratory infection was consistent with influenza for which they were receiving treatment.

The reasons for ambulance transport requested by the treating doctor to NSW Health’s assessment panel, were, one passenger had a heart condition likely caused by an infection which was responding to influenza treatment, and the second passenger was suffering severe lower back pain but was also receiving treatment for flu.

Under the Commonwealth Department of Health cruise protocols, an ILI outbreak is defined when ‘more than one per cent of the ships total passengers and crew have an influenza like illness’.

The Ruby Princess had 2647 passengers and 1148 crew. The ship reported to NSW Health there were 104 acute respiratory infections of which 36 people had presented to the ship’s clinic with influenza like illness during the cruise and its numbers fell short of the definition of an ‘outbreak’.

The Commonwealth Department of Health protocol on managing novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19 risk from cruise ship) states “provided there are no concerns about the COVID-19 risk profile of the ship or suspected COVID-19 cases reported …the ship may be allowed to continue voyage while samples are tested”.

I have perused the above document, thanks for posting.  As it turned out a pretty poor 'risk assessment.'   Whoever did that should get a grilling.  Incompetence from several agencies, give them the 'hamburger with the lot'  if they are found responsible for this mess after the investigation and coronial enquiry. I am still not convinced Princess - Carnival Australia is off the hook, even though I am a long term Princess devotee.

Edited April 7, 2020 by NSWP

[DiamondFour]

26 minutes ago, NSWP said:

I have perused the above document, thanks for posting.  As it turned out a pretty poor 'risk assessment.'   Whoever did that should get a grilling.  Incompetence from several agencies, give them the 'hamburger with the lot'  if they are found responsible for this mess after the investigation and coronial enquiry. I am still not convinced Princess - Carnival Australia is off the hook, even though I am a long term Princess devotee.

I have perused some of your posts and it appears you have been on ships with elderly and on some long voyages. Surely on some voyages you have become aware of bronchitis type infections or deep chest infections that spread throughout the passengers. These are hard to contain. There are passengers who claim the "air conditioning" causes them breathing problems among a long list of excuses.

 

What more could the ships staff have done? They had passengers sitting on the wharf until 5pm. Did NSW Health not take swabs or examine the ship? What was going on? Were the suitcases loaded and what cost would it have been to the government and port services to take all the stores and luggage back off the ship on a Sunday night?

 

There is more to this than meets the eye. I cannot see how Ruby Princess should be the sole focus of a police investigation when it is clear government ministers and departments have serious questions to answer.

[NSWP]

11 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

I have perused some of your posts and it appears you have been on ships with elderly and on some long voyages. Surely on some voyages you have become aware of bronchitis type infections or deep chest infections that spread throughout the passengers. These are hard to contain. There are passengers who claim the "air conditioning" causes them breathing problems among a long list of excuses.

 

What more could the ships staff have done? They had passengers sitting on the wharf until 5pm. Did NSW Health not take swabs or examine the ship? What was going on? Were the suitcases loaded and what cost would it have been to the government and port services to take all the stores and luggage back off the ship on a Sunday night?

 

There is more to this than meets the eye. I cannot see how Ruby Princess should be the sole focus of a police investigation when it is clear government ministers and departments have serious questions to answer.

Heh Heh, I was on a cruise with you once, Golden Princess, Buenos Aires to Los Angeles, 2014.

 

Sure I have been on several 30 and 40 day cruises where many have got infections,  noro etc including myself as I am a Coeliac with a frail immune system.  Been down to the ships doctors many a time and spent dollars and been quarantined in cabin.

 

Anyway, I hope the 'investigation looks at other agencies beside NSW Health to get the big picture and perhaps even come up with a brief to the NSW Depart of Public Proescution (DPP) for possible criminal charges.  It is a wonder the wolves are not baying for a Royal Commission.

Edited April 7, 2020 by NSWP

[OzKiwiJJ]

12 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

I have perused some of your posts and it appears you have been on ships with elderly and on some long voyages. Surely on some voyages you have become aware of bronchitis type infections or deep chest infections that spread throughout the passengers. These are hard to contain. There are passengers who claim the "air conditioning" causes them breathing problems among a long list of excuses.

 

What more could the ships staff have done? They had passengers sitting on the wharf until 5pm. Did NSW Health not take swabs or examine the ship? What was going on? Were the suitcases loaded and what cost would it have been to the government and port services to take all the stores and luggage back off the ship on a Sunday night?

 

There is more to this than meets the eye. I cannot see how Ruby Princess should be the sole focus of a police investigation when it is clear government ministers and departments have serious questions to answer.

I think you've confused two different cruises. That document refers to the cruise that arrived back in Sydney on March 19th. It was the cruise that was in progress when Princess cancelled all cruises for a while across the fleet so there were no passengers sitting on the wharf waiting to embark the next cruise - it was the embarkation on March 8th that was delayed by deep cleansing which Princess had announced would be done on all ships some time earlier. At that time there was no reason to cancel that cruise as there was, and still isn't, and confirmed Covid-19 cases from the cruise that ended on March 8th.

 

To me it sounds like the police investigation is the NSW government trying to find a scapegoat to cover up it's incompetence.

 

[DiamondFour]

22 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I think you've confused two different cruises. That document refers to the cruise that arrived back in Sydney on March 19th. It was the cruise that was in progress when Princess cancelled all cruises for a while across the fleet so there were no passengers sitting on the wharf waiting to embark the next cruise - it was the embarkation on March 8th that was delayed by deep cleansing which Princess had announced would be done on all ships some time earlier. At that time there was no reason to cancel that cruise as there was, and still isn't, and confirmed Covid-19 cases from the cruise that ended on March 8th.

 

To me it sounds like the police investigation is the NSW government trying to find a scapegoat to cover up it's incompetence.

 

I feel the same way about what the police are doing. 

 

I am aware about the 24th February cruise and the alleged sick passengers on that cruise. From what I am aware the ship was in no position to declare they had that virus on board as they could not test for it and we do not know who was sick from what. If it was sea sickness people were reporting should that be grounds to prevent it from docking?

 

There would be no reason the ship would hide sick passengers or fail to declare them if they suspected the virus was on board. They saw what happened with the Diamond Princess and there is no way the Captain or Doctor (who would understand the virus more than us) would risk their life with that particular virus and take on more passengers.

 

They have sick passengers on every cruise, people who need oxygen and ventilators and declare them prior to boarding.

 

Do you honestly believe that the crew on the Ruby Princess if they suspected the virus from china was on the ship would 1) cover it up, 2) invite more passengers on and 3) run the risk of a mass outbreak and death of passengers and crew?

 

I do not believe they would.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Given the sailing of the 24th Feb, which preceeded the 8th March cruise, was also an NZ cruise and therefore spent four days on the Tasman Sea - two days each way, I'd happily bet that a fair proportion of those 258 people that reported to the medical centre during that cruise had seasickness. On two out of three of the Tasman crossing we've done so far we've had 5+ metre seas. 

[rickays]

I still think that there is no BLAME for Princess Cruises, ships doctor, NSW Health, Border Control or anyone else that has been included in this witch hunt.  As I see it the facts are - there were people on board who had flu like symptoms.  Swabs were taken in Wellington NZ that showed of those tested, they had negative test for covid19 but had tested positive for flu, so at that time the thought was no covid19 onboard but flu was circulating.  They then continued their voyage until their return to Sydney where Ruby Princess advised they had positive test for flu, but 2 test were negative for flu in people displaying flu like symptoms.  NSW Health decided the risk that the ship had covid19 onboard was small due to the fact that the ship had travelled to NZ (who had very few cases) and that there had been 2 separate tests (one NZ and one lot onboard) that showed flu except for 2 results that were negative using a testing method that was not 100% accurate on positive flu results.  Therefore most likely passengers were suffering flu not covid19.  Also all passengers by law had to go home and self isolate.  On that same day at Sydney airport many more people were arriving from countries known to have a lot more cases than Aus or NZ and they also were allowed to leave and go home and self isolate, some of which later tested positive.  Where is the difference?  Is Qantas or any other airline or Border security and anyone else blamed for letting them disembark a plane.

[NSWP]

6 minutes ago, rickays said:

I still think that there is no BLAME for Princess Cruises, ships doctor, NSW Health, Border Control or anyone else that has been included in this witch hunt.  As I see it the facts are - there were people on board who had flu like symptoms.  Swabs were taken in Wellington NZ that showed of those tested, they had negative test for covid19 but had tested positive for flu, so at that time the thought was no covid19 onboard but flu was circulating.  They then continued their voyage until their return to Sydney where Ruby Princess advised they had positive test for flu, but 2 test were negative for flu in people displaying flu like symptoms.  NSW Health decided the risk that the ship had covid19 onboard was small due to the fact that the ship had travelled to NZ (who had very few cases) and that there had been 2 separate tests (one NZ and one lot onboard) that showed flu except for 2 results that were negative using a testing method that was not 100% accurate on positive flu results.  Therefore most likely passengers were suffering flu not covid19.  Also all passengers by law had to go home and self isolate.  On that same day at Sydney airport many more people were arriving from countries known to have a lot more cases than Aus or NZ and they also were allowed to leave and go home and self isolate, some of which later tested positive.  Where is the difference?  Is Qantas or any other airline or Border security and anyone else blamed for letting them disembark a plane.

Good points there.   So can we now be assured that the North Korea or Chinese Governments caused it all? 

[The_Big_M]

8 hours ago, Porky55 said:

Interesting counter point to the often quoted 🤔

From Traveller.com.au -

“The phrase "petri dish" became an instant cliché associated with cruise ships as the infection rate, and death toll, mounted - even though a ski resort in Austria has also proved as effective an incubator, with as many as 2500 cases reported from it.”

https://www.traveller.com.au/cruise-ships-and-coronavirus-how-cruising-can-navigate-out-of-its-sea-of-pain-h1n40t

 

 

 

Exactly. The  same thing could be said about an aged care home amongst others, just cruise ships have a larger number of people (usually).

[MicCanberra]

1 minute ago, The_Big_M said:

 

Exactly. The  same thing could be said about an aged care home amongst others, just cruise ships have a larger number of people (usually).

And they are not white either.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, rickays said:

I still think that there is no BLAME for Princess Cruises, ships doctor, NSW Health, Border Control or anyone else that has been included in this witch hunt.  As I see it the facts are - there were people on board who had flu like symptoms.  Swabs were taken in Wellington NZ that showed of those tested, they had negative test for covid19 but had tested positive for flu, so at that time the thought was no covid19 onboard but flu was circulating.  They then continued their voyage until their return to Sydney where Ruby Princess advised they had positive test for flu, but 2 test were negative for flu in people displaying flu like symptoms.  NSW Health decided the risk that the ship had covid19 onboard was small due to the fact that the ship had travelled to NZ (who had very few cases) and that there had been 2 separate tests (one NZ and one lot onboard) that showed flu except for 2 results that were negative using a testing method that was not 100% accurate on positive flu results.  Therefore most likely passengers were suffering flu not covid19.  Also all passengers by law had to go home and self isolate.  On that same day at Sydney airport many more people were arriving from countries known to have a lot more cases than Aus or NZ and they also were allowed to leave and go home and self isolate, some of which later tested positive.  Where is the difference?  Is Qantas or any other airline or Border security and anyone else blamed for letting them disembark a plane.

Very well expressed👍.

[OzKiwiJJ]

40 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Very well expressed👍.

I agree.