Long time before cruising resumes

[kitty9]

If cruise lines start deciding who is or is not fit to cruise, you’re getting into violations of the ADA.  Just like cruise lines cannot ask a disabled person what their disability is, courts could decide that cruise lines cannot ask specific questions about one’s health.  It’s all a right to privacy issue.  Also, if cruise lines start restricting passengers based solely on age, that could also bring on lawsuits, based on age discrimination.  Yes, I know cruise lines have rules that ban those under 18, but when you mess with the Boomers and their right to cruise, you’re messing with the wrong people.  I could see AARP getting involved. 

[bitob]

Let's be realists.

Are you all certain that all the cruise lines will survive this?

 

Most people (including most of my friends who like me are frequent cruisers) are against ANY bailout of the cruise lines.  Their entire MO is to avoid paying taxes in the US and to get around US labor laws.  Most of the jobs are not held by US citizens.

 

Having recently made a cruise stop in the Marshall Islands, I guarantee that that poverty-stricken country with the beneficial cruise registration laws is in no position to bail out Oceania.

 

I want bailouts and/or financial assistance to go to entities that pay US taxes and employ US citizens.  We need to save restaurants and small businesses.   We certainly need to make sure the airlines survive as air travel is a necessity.  Cruising is not a necessity.  I am not sure cruising will ever be the same and to what extent it will even exist.

 

.

[B-2-Bs Best!]

All this speculation in this thread is worthless!

[clo]

1 hour ago, B-2-Bs Best! said:

All this speculation in this thread is worthless!

You must not participate in any social media 🙂

[Petoonya]

1 hour ago, kitty9 said:

If cruise lines start deciding who is or is not fit to cruise, you’re getting into violations of the ADA.  Just like cruise lines cannot ask a disabled person what their disability is

3d 641 (5th Cir. 2004), which held that the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to foreign-flag cruise ships serving U.S. ports. That decision stood in stark contrast to the decision of the Eleventh Circuit in Steven v. Premier Cruises, Inc., 215 F.

 

Who knows?

[babysteps]

8 hours ago, Shawnino said:

...

 

The vaccine likely won't be a panacea.

...

If Covid has a somewhat similar success rate, the vaccine will help some, but not how a vaccines cleaned up, say, Smallpox or polio.

 

Although a future vaccine may not be a panacea, it could help flatten the curve so that healthcare systems could handle the annual influx of critical respiratory patients.  I assume several different vaccines will be developed independently -- it will be interesting to see how testing and/or studies proceed, and how effectiveness compares with side-effects.

 

An anti-body test could be useful as well, especially if it allows more people to assist the healthcare effort.

 

I have no idea how long these take to develop, but researchers and regulators mostly seem to be on the same "full steam ahead!" page.

 

Meanwhile, wash your hands everyone 🙂 [I find a hygeine mask emoticon, but not a hand-washing one...]

[clo]

35 minutes ago, babysteps said:

An anti-body test could be useful as well, especially if it allows more people to assist the healthcare effort.

 

It could be super important in future years as a change in titer could show a new infection in someone who'd had it previously whether they knew it or not.

[CintiPam]

3 hours ago, Petoonya said:

3d 641 (5th Cir. 2004), which held that the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to foreign-flag cruise ships serving U.S. ports. That decision stood in stark contrast to the decision of the Eleventh Circuit in Steven v. Premier Cruises, Inc., 215 F.

 

Who knows?

FYI, all cruise ships that sail in US waters, even if foreign-flagged, must comply with ADA per 2015 settlement by the US Department of Justice with Carnival Cruises.  Not clear to me how ADA applies at all to reasonable health inquiries for the purpose of protecting the health of others on a cruise ship. However, I am a “ recovery attorney” and no longer a practicing one! 😁

Edited March 25, 2020 by CintiPam

[Petoonya]

13 minutes ago, CintiPam said:

FYI, all cruise ships that sail in US waters, even if foreign-flagged, must comply with ADA per 2015 settlement by the US Department of Justice with Carnival Cruises.  Not clear to me how ADA applies at all to reasonable health inquiries for the purpose of protecting the health of others on a cruise ship. However, I am a “ recovery attorney” and no longer a practicing one! 😁

Thanks for the info Lyn.

[CintiPam]

7 minutes ago, Petoonya said:

Thanks for the info Lyn.

Pam!  But I was fortunate to sail once with Lyn in the Caribbean several years ago.  She kindly arranged a lovely tour of an artisanal chocolate factory in Bridgetown, Barbados which husband and I, both chocoholics, enjoyed immensely.

[pingpong1]

2 hours ago, CintiPam said:

FYI, all cruise ships that sail in US waters, even if foreign-flagged, must comply with ADA per 2015 settlement by the US Department of Justice with Carnival Cruises.  Not clear to me how ADA applies at all to reasonable health inquiries for the purpose of protecting the health of others on a cruise ship. However, I am a “ recovery attorney” and no longer a practicing one! 😁

Is it "reasonable" to ask someone if they have diabetes or HIV?  How does remotely impact the health of other passengers on the ship?

[drkitkat123]

my main point was for those that are looking at all the special deals (on any lines), forget it. You will not be sailing before at least the end of the year and probably only mid late next year

[GICNJC]

On the issue of age and cruising:  what measurement tool will be used to evaluate ability to cruise.  We all know aged individuals who are very healthy at 80 and others who not at 40.  Using a specific age is not acceptable.   Not to mention legal angle of age discrimination in fotce in many countries. 

[bitob]

I agree with drkitkat123.  We are a LONG way from cruising anywhere.  As you all know, a cruise ship is a very large petrie dish.  The medical professionals do not fully understand this virus.  Assume we flatten here in the US.  Are you willing risk your health to explore another part of the world where the virus could re establish itself?

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by bitob

[Shawnino]

10 hours ago, CintiPam said:

FYI, all cruise ships that sail in US waters, even if foreign-flagged, must comply with ADA per 2015 settlement by the US Department of Justice with Carnival Cruises.  Not clear to me how ADA applies at all to reasonable health inquiries for the purpose of protecting the health of others on a cruise ship. However, I am a “ recovery attorney” and no longer a practicing one! 😁

 

Solid info.

 

I'm not a practicing attorney either, but merely a constitutional theorist.

 

While the ADA applies here, we mustn't forget that HIPAA likely applies as well--specifically, the privacy bits. If someone presents himself (say with a doctor's note to get that out of the way) as fit for travel, there would seem to be little in my mind that a cruise line could do. 

 

You could make the argument fore a forehead temperature scan or similarly non-invasive stuff, that such an ailment would have emerged post-doctor's-note. But I would expect that examination of underlying conditions, even if they were obviously apparent, would be a harder go. 

 

***This is not legal advice. If it were legal advice, it would be followed by a bill.***

[CintiPam]

19 minutes ago, Shawnino said:

You could make the argument fore a forehead temperature scan or similarly non-invasive stuff, that such an ailment would have emerged post-doctor's-note. But I would expect that examination of underlying conditions, even if they were obviously apparent, would be a harder go. 

 

***This is not legal advice. If it were legal advice, it would be followed by a bill.***

We were informed before our February 26-March 11 Southern Caribbean cruise that temperatures would be taken (at least at embarkation in Miami) but that did not occur, only a very thorough passport examination to vet that we had not recently visited certain foreign countries in the previous few weeks.  
 

Of course I just found out on this Oceania board last weekend that the 87-year-old man who was evacuated by helicopter to Puerto Rico two days before we disembarked in Miami had COVID-19.  He had shortness of breath symptoms six days Into the cruise, waited three days to seek medical help and suffered from five preexisting medical conditions before boarding the cruise, including emphysema, neuropathy, arrhythmia and heart disease.  He survived and headed home to San Diego a couple of days ago.

Edited March 25, 2020 by CintiPam

[LHT28]

10 hours ago, CintiPam said:

Pam!  But I was fortunate to sail once with Lyn in the Caribbean several years ago.  She kindly arranged a lovely tour of an artisanal chocolate factory in Bridgetown, Barbados which husband and I, both chocoholics, enjoyed immensely.

it was a fun tour  Pam

 he now has the workshop/store in town and makes ice cream also YUMMM

have not been  but another person I told to go enjoyed the tour there

[LHT28]

8 hours ago, drkitkat123 said:

my main point was for those that are looking at all the special deals (on any lines), forget it. You will not be sailing before at least the end of the year and probably only mid late next year

Time will tell

no one has a Crystal ball

[FolsomMike]

As I said on my Roll Call, I think it is very foolish for any Senior or any other high risk individual to fly (much less cruise) before a vaccine is widely available which all the experts agree is at least a year away. I’m a healthy 68 year old and, like most folks here, I love cruising but I seriously wonder if I’d ever be comfortable on a cruise ship again. 

[susiesan]

11 hours ago, drkitkat123 said:

my main point was for those that are looking at all the special deals (on any lines), forget it. You will not be sailing before at least the end of the year and probably only mid late next year

I disagree. If all the hundreds of ships sit idle for a year to 18 months with no revenue coming into the companies, they will all default on their debt and declare bankruptcy. The will do what Renaissance did, walk away. Shareholders and baks who leant them money will take the loss. Not even Carnival Corp can afford to stay in business with zero revenue, no company can. Your point of view is from the medical profession, mine is from being a business owner.

[pinotlover]

41 minutes ago, susiesan said:

I disagree. If all the hundreds of ships sit idle for a year to 18 months with no revenue coming into the companies, they will all default on their debt and declare bankruptcy. The will do what Renaissance did, walk away. Shareholders and baks who leant them money will take the loss. Not even Carnival Corp can afford to stay in business with zero revenue, no company can. Your point of view is from the medical profession, mine is from being a business owner.

I agree with susiean! Do you really believe that all those FL beaches are going to stay closed all summer, and that Disney and other Parks will stay shut down during their prime tourist season? If so, you must also believe that those local municipalities and the State are  going to do a HUGE tax increase on its residents to make up for the $$$$ they are losing? Who’ll go bankrupt faster Disney or the City of Orlando? Most States have Constitutional requirements for balanced budgets, and they don’t have rainy day funds large enough for long term shutdowns. Those governors will be opening things back up by 5/1, if not before. State and local governments need money to survive just like companies do. They can’t print money, like the Fed is doing.

Edited March 25, 2020 by pinotlover

[Paulchili]

31 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Who’ll go bankrupt faster Disney or the City of Orlando? Most States have Constitutional requirements for balanced budgets, and they don’t have rainy day funds large enough for long term shutdowns. Those governors will be opening things back up by 5/1, if not before.

The price they may have to pay for the consequences of a massive increase in their local epidemic in moneys and lives will make the losses of park closures look like chump change if they are foolish enough to open up too soon.

Just look at what New Orleans is dealing with after Mardi Gras with thousands of people crowding the streets..

Edited March 25, 2020 by Paulchili

[clo]

5 hours ago, FolsomMike said:

As I said on my Roll Call, I think it is very foolish for any Senior or any other high risk individual to fly (much less cruise) before a vaccine is widely available which all the experts agree is at least a year away. I’m a healthy 68 year old and, like most folks here, I love cruising but I seriously wonder if I’d ever be comfortable on a cruise ship again. 

I was gladly corrected that it was not the live virus but rather viral RNA that was found on a ship 17 days after disembarkation. But that could/might infect someone. I can't imagine there being any cleaning process that would be thorough enough. Mike, I think I'm with you.

[drkitkat123]

6 hours ago, susiesan said:

I disagree. If all the hundreds of ships sit idle for a year to 18 months with no revenue coming into the companies, they will all default on their debt and declare bankruptcy. The will do what Renaissance did, walk away. Shareholders and baks who leant them money will take the loss. Not even Carnival Corp can afford to stay in business with zero revenue, no company can. Your point of view is from the medical profession, mine is from being a business owner.

Susie - hope you are keeping well. I think you are not actually disagreeing with me 🤨just making a slightly different point which I do agree with

[drkitkat123]

6 hours ago, pinotlover said:

I agree with susiean! Do you really believe that all those FL beaches are going to stay closed all summer, and that Disney and other Parks will stay shut down during their prime tourist season? If so, you must also believe that those local municipalities and the State are  going to do a HUGE tax increase on its residents to make up for the $$$$ they are losing? Who’ll go bankrupt faster Disney or the City of Orlando? Most States have Constitutional requirements for balanced budgets, and they don’t have rainy day funds large enough for long term shutdowns. Those governors will be opening things back up by 5/1, if not before. State and local governments need money to survive just like companies do. They can’t print money, like the Fed is doing.

Form Australia, I have no real idea about Florida beaches or Disney/Orlando but IMO facilities around the world will be closed for many months. I think 5/1 means May 1 in your language but not in a million years will things be up and running by then...