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The politics of the cruise industry during COVID19

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11 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Do you even read these articles you are posting?  Not one shred of evidence that the RNA material found on this cruise ship after nearly 3 weeks could be infectious; and for the record Wikipedia is a terrible source of information.

 

This article from NEJM, states quite clearly that RNA found outside a host for this amount of time is completely inert.

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=featured_home

I've read the NEJM article twice and I'm missing something obviously. From what I read they were dealing with the live virus. I don't see any mention of RNA. Please copy that. I don't doubt you: I just don't see it.

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7 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I used to think people will forget but now I am not so sure. Talk of COVID 19 is 24/7 on the news cycle and it is a constantly trending search on the internet and if you are in a country that is locked down for six months after being so long conditioned to social distancing it might be an effort to convince people that cruises are safe🤔.


I would like to believe that that’s true but I’m not sure. In 2008 the housing market crashed due to irresponsible loans being made. Which led to a recession that took 2 years to recover from. And 10 years later I sold a house to a buyer that financed 97% of the loan and in fact got a check back at closing due to a grant she received that covered more than 3%. You would think we would have learned not to finance 100% of a home but apparently not.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I would like to believe that that’s true but I’m not sure. In 2008 the housing market crashed due to irresponsible loans being made. Which led to a recession that took 2 years to recover from. And 10 years later I sold a house to a buyer that financed 97% of the loan and in fact got a check back at closing due to a grant she received that covered more than 3%. You would think we would have learned not to finance 100% of a home but apparently not.

 

I'm not sure that is the best comaprison. Most people are not aware or understand the details of what happened in the Housing Market Crash. A lot of people find that narrative too complicated to commit to memory but with COVID 19 the narrative is very simple (virus spreads around the world creating death and sickness leading to countries lockdown and restricting movement) and simple narratives tend to be harder to forget.

Edited by ilikeanswers

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People will not forget Covid-19, it is affecting all corners of the earth and killing 10,000 to date and getting worse. 

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1 hour ago, yorkshirephil said:

People will not forget Covid-19, it is affecting all corners of the earth and killing 10,000 to date and getting worse. 


people will remember the 2020 as the covid year. But I don’t think it will have a lasting impact on people behavior. We are in it right now. How many posters do you still see asking if they will still be able to take their April cruise or if it’s safe to book for May (I’ve seen many). Their logic being,  yes, I understand the virus and all, but this is a vacation that I’ve been saving for and looking forward to for a long time. Or people boasting about how cheap they could get airfare in April/May. The reason businesses were closed is because most people are concerned about society problems but will still put themselves and their problems first. If bars and restaurants were still open. People would still be going. Yes. Once the government entities decide its ‘safe’ for things to reopen, it will get back to normal quickly.

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4 minutes ago, sanger727 said:


people will remember the 2020 as the covid year. But I don’t think it will have a lasting impact on people behavior. We are in it right now. How many posters do you still see asking if they will still be able to take their April cruise or if it’s safe to book for May (I’ve seen many). Their logic being,  yes, I understand the virus and all, but this is a vacation that I’ve been saving for and looking forward to for a long time. Or people boasting about how cheap they could get airfare in April/May. The reason businesses were closed is because most people are concerned about society problems but will still put themselves and their problems first. If bars and restaurants were still open. People would still be going. Yes. Once the government entities decide its ‘safe’ for things to reopen, it will get back to normal quickly.

I dont know Sanger.. I think the world wont be the same again. When the whole thing will be over people will look on life under a totally different angle. I can see it now and I am sure it will last forever this way. The way people communicate, go shopping, travel/cruising, taking care of themselves.. the way stores and restaurant work and etc. This virus destroyed our casual way of life ( I mean all the people of Earth). I wont eleborate on it right now but I am sure everyone is aware of things that became parts of our everyday life. Sometimes I think that I would better be off alone. Too much to care about.. family,friends.. If you live alone and by yourself I am sure you will manage such problems easier and faster imho 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roger88 said:

I dont know Sanger.. I think the world wont be the same again. When the whole thing will be over people will look on life under a totally different angle. I can see it now and I am sure it will last forever this way. The way people communicate, go shopping, travel/cruising, taking care of themselves.. the way stores and restaurant work and etc. This virus destroyed our casual way of life ( I mean all the people of Earth). I wont eleborate on it right now but I am sure everyone is aware of things that became parts of our everyday life. Sometimes I think that I would better be off alone. Too much to care about.. family,friends.. If you live alone and by yourself I am sure you will manage such problems easier and faster imho 

 

1 hour ago, Roger88 said:

I dont know Sanger.. I think the world wont be the same again. When the whole thing will be over people will look on life under a totally different angle. I can see it now and I am sure it will last forever this way. The way people communicate, go shopping, travel/cruising, taking care of themselves.. the way stores and restaurant work and etc. This virus destroyed our casual way of life ( I mean all the people of Earth). I wont eleborate on it right now but I am sure everyone is aware of things that became parts of our everyday life. Sometimes I think that I would better be off alone. Too much to care about.. family,friends.. If you live alone and by yourself I am sure you will manage such problems easier and faster imho 


maybe it’s a regional issue. Where I live everything is closed and everyone is ordered to stay home outside OBC ‘essential business’. It has made zero difference in the way people are living their lives where I live. Many people still go to work (me included), tons of businesses that aren’t in the food/pharmacy industry are still open and people are frequenting them. Every time I leave the house there are still tons of people out going about their Day and no one is ‘social distancing’ unless they are forced to. Outside of the businesses that were ordered closed like bars, restaurants, salons, etc; it is relatively business as usual here. Shoot, a close friend of mine just took her daughter prom dress shopping because she’s convinced that schools will open back up soon and prom will be on. I think the perception originally was that this was a China problem, then that it was a europe problem, now it’s a New York problem - but it’s certainly not a cincinnati problem... 

Edited by sanger727

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

maybe it’s a regional issue. Where I live everything is closed and everyone is ordered to stay home outside OBC ‘essential business’. It has made zero difference in the way people are living their lives where I live. Many people still go to work (me included), tons of businesses that aren’t in the food/pharmacy industry are still open and people are frequenting them. Every time I leave the house there are still tons of people out going about their Day and no one is ‘social distancing’ unless they are forced to. Outside of the businesses that were ordered closed like bars, restaurants, salons, etc; it is relatively business as usual here. Shoot, a close friend of mine just took her daughter prom dress shopping because she’s convinced that schools will open back up soon and prom will be on. I think the perception originally was that this was a China problem, then that it was a europe problem, now it’s a New York problem - but it’s certainly not a cincinnati problem... 

 

Let's hope your neck of the woods doesn't get a problem. In Australia Sydney things are different. Nearly every shop is closed, the streets are quiet because a lot of people are working from home so the traffic has basically disappeared (I suppose the one benefit of this lock down😆). Mask and gloves are everywhere and people are keeping their distance. You can't be in a group of more than two unless you all live in the same house. Shelves in the supermarket have been running out of pantry items, banks will only allow a small number of people to enter at a time so you have line outside just waiting to get in and someone is monitering to make sure they are spaced apart right. They say this will continue for six months so I can't imagine that people will forget this anytime soon.

Edited by ilikeanswers

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2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Let's hope your neck of the woods doesn't get a problem. In Australia Sydney things are different. Nearly every shop is closed, the streets are quiet because a lot of people are working from home so the traffic has basically disappeared (I suppose the one benefit of this lock down😆). Mask and gloves are everywhere and people are keeping their distance. You can't be in a group of more than two unless you all live in the same house. Shelves in the supermarket have been running out of pantry items, banks will only allow a small number of people to enter at a time so you have line outside just waiting to get in and someone is monitering to make sure they are spaced apart right. They say this will continue for six months so I can't imagine that people will forget this anytime soon.

It is pretty much the same here, I think now that more people have died, and not just old people it is driving home the fact that this is serious and government advice should be heeded. We do still get some idiots who don't think the rules apply to them.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

It is pretty much the same here, I think now that more people have died, and not just old people it is driving home the fact that this is serious and government advice should be heeded. We do still get some idiots who don't think the rules apply to them.

 

That may be part of our issue. We have only had 30 deaths so far in our state and none locally. It hasn't really hit in here yet that this is going to be bad. 

Edited by sanger727

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On 3/28/2020 at 10:01 AM, rtazz17 said:

Just like every virus you will get it and recover. You will have immunity after recovering. its not a death sentence... its just too many getting it at once over whelming hospitals. On top of that its still flu season and then the people panicking with a sniffle running to the hospital. Media has done a number in fear mongering the heck out of this. I work in emergency medicine treating patients and people are petrified from watching the tabloid media hype. There will be another virus that comes along and hopefully we have learned from this experience. Common sense is still your best defense. Wash your hands,dont lick your fingers,etc... its nothing new..most viruses are all transferred the same route. Dont panic. If you get it treat your symptoms and recover. Of course if you are immune compromised you are more susceptible. But that goes for every virus.

 

Eventually this will pass and fun will resume!   


That’s just flat out wrong based on what is known and not known at this time. It is not a media hoax. 

People get the virus and all too many die, they don’t al get over it and recover. For many more than those that die treatment involves long stays in ICUs.
Don’t believe it leads to death? Look at the medical professionals that got it and died. Look at the reefer trucks hospitals are using to store dead bodies because their morgues are overwhelmed. 
Continuing immunity  following infection has yet to be established. 

 

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On 3/28/2020 at 3:49 AM, compman9 said:

The world is waiting for two things:

1. An effective treatment

2. A vaccine

 

Once the first one is achieved things will start getting back to normal. Until then, we will be in lockdown

Actually.....

 

1. A plentiful quick test

2. Effective treatment 

3. Vaccine

 

And treatment can even be omitted.

 

With adequate testing things can get back to normal.  If we can test every person, we can isolate the sick and allow the healthy to go about their lives. 

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2 hours ago, ed01106 said:

And treatment can even be omitted.

 

There's no vaccine for HIV/AIDS but treatment so it is frequently not a lethal disease.

 

2 hours ago, ed01106 said:

 If we can test every person, we can isolate the sick and allow the healthy to go about their lives. 

If they test negative, they might not YET test positive but have the virus.  

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1 hour ago, clo said:

If they test negative, they might not YET test positive but have the virus.  

 

South Korea pumped out the tests but most importantly they contact traced all the people who were postive therefore identifying victims before they got to hospitalisation stage. Tests might not be 100% proof but it seems they are good enough that countries who test frequently either flatten the curve quicker, lessen death rates like Germany or have less infections to begin with like Taiwan.

How South Korea Flattened the Curve

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On 3/28/2020 at 3:17 PM, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Maybe.  But the relief bill that just passed will give the cruiselines nothing since they chose to NOT be American companies, a decision the cruiselines made that has saved them a lot in taxes over the years but which may prove, in the end, economically fatal.

 

Cruise lines do not choose to be foreign entities.   US laws going back to the early 1900s makes it practically impossible for ships to be flagged in the US or owned by US companies.  Why do you think there is only one ship, an NCL ship in Hawaii that is flagged in the US.   What scares me more than cruise ships is that similar laws around the same time also put the same prohibitions on cargo.    Just a point to bring up, I don't believe we should bail out the cruise lines but perhaps like our pharmaceuticals, perhaps this should be revisited on the other side of this mess.  

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There's many of us who have little to no fear of the virus. Call me crazy, but I would cruise right now if it weren't for two things: the risk of being quarantined in the room for 14 days and spreading it to others (besides the obvious no sailings). Even by our worst-case estimates of about 200,000 dying from this, that is .06% of the US population. Really think about that number. How often you would base your life decisions around such a percentage? Nobody even acknowledged the 80,000 flu deaths from the 2017-2018 flu season. No one tracked how many cases there were, there was no hysteria, we didn't shut down the world.

 

Could I die from it? It's possible. I could die from a lot of other things too. However, many of us choose not the live in fear of the world around it. That is no way to live. You could still even take reasonable precautions to protect yourself from all of the "risks". Over a million people die each year in car accidents. Should I be afraid to be on the road?

 

We will continue to do what we can for the time being. The question is, how long will the world be willing to shut itself down for a small percentage of maybes?

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9 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

There's many of us who have little to no fear of the virus. Call me crazy, but I would cruise right now if it weren't for two things: the risk of being quarantined in the room for 14 days and spreading it to others (besides the obvious no sailings). Even by our worst-case estimates of about 200,000 dying from this, that is .06% of the US population. Really think about that number. How often you would base your life decisions around such a percentage? Nobody even acknowledged the 80,000 flu deaths from the 2017-2018 flu season. No one tracked how many cases there were, there was no hysteria, we didn't shut down the world.

 

Could I die from it? It's possible. I could die from a lot of other things too. However, many of us choose not the live in fear of the world around it. That is no way to live. You could still even take reasonable precautions to protect yourself from all of the "risks". Over a million people die each year in car accidents. Should I be afraid to be on the road?

 

We will continue to do what we can for the time being. The question is, how long will the world be willing to shut itself down for a small percentage of maybes?

No offense but this is beyond ignorant. Wow, just wow. Now 200,000 people are expendable I guess? Everyone go out, do whatever you want, infect people and oh well 200,000 people could die. This is F-ing callous, impressively callous. 

THIS IS NOT THE DAM FLU FOR THE LAST DAM TIME! This is spread almost 4 times more. This is not a car accident. You don't catch a car accident from someone breathing on you or sneezing near you, or coughing near you. This country is in sad shape if we believe 200,000 people are expendable.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

There's many of us who have little to no fear of the virus. Call me crazy, but I would cruise right now if it weren't for two things: the risk of being quarantined in the room for 14 days and spreading it to others (besides the obvious no sailings). Even by our worst-case estimates of about 200,000 dying from this, that is .06% of the US population. Really think about that number. How often you would base your life decisions around such a percentage? Nobody even acknowledged the 80,000 flu deaths from the 2017-2018 flu season. No one tracked how many cases there were, there was no hysteria, we didn't shut down the world.

 

Could I die from it? It's possible. I could die from a lot of other things too. However, many of us choose not the live in fear of the world around it. That is no way to live. You could still even take reasonable precautions to protect yourself from all of the "risks". Over a million people die each year in car accidents. Should I be afraid to be on the road?

 

We will continue to do what we can for the time being. The question is, how long will the world be willing to shut itself down for a small percentage of maybes?

200,000 dead is the “worse case (95%)” estimate by an optimistic model that assumes everybody is practicing stringent social distancing thru June.  

 

The model gets much much worse if we end social distancing early.

 

 

The true worst case is everyone dies.  The model (assuming social distancing) says there is a 5% chance it will be worse than 200,000.  

 

This is only one of many models....some with much worse predictions.  It is not surprising that the White House picked a relatively optimistic model.   

Edited by ed01106

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On 3/28/2020 at 10:49 AM, bobmacliberty said:

No matter the reality, Princess Cruise Lines will have a harder time recovering than other cruise lines.  Their reputation took a huge hit.

Honestly I wouldn't;t be surprise if they went bankrupt. they are the worst at containing virus. they always seem to have issues with norovirus breaking out. on a cruise this past summer i went on with them they had a flu type outbreak. i was not surprised.  they seem to always miss the mark because the other cruise lines don't seem to have as many outbreaks as princess does. they seem to always be in the news for norovirus. is it the ships? demographic? the ports? i just don't understand why. they aren't doing something right here.

 

pokerguy90"How are we to believe it is really safe even after the ships are back to revenue cruising? Ah, thats where the politics comes in.  Do we have blind faith? Do we wear hazmat suites for 7 days in the carib. Will buffets only be served by gloved staff?  Oh, and WHEN that first case of Noro I mentioned before rears its ugly head. Will that be the end of cruising? Or will we just forgo better judgement and roll the dice when they are giving cruises away, just to get people back."

 

if you didnt stop cruising due to the norovirus outbreak, i don't feel you should stop cruising now. cruise lines will always have an issue because no matter how many/much standards they have in place, the passengers will always be the fact here. someone will always lie on those forms and bring their sickness onboard. i think the real question is how/if will they be able to prevent sick passengers from coming onboard. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Sailorgrl7392 said:

Honestly I wouldn't;t be surprise if they went bankrupt. they are the worst at containing virus. they always seem to have issues with norovirus breaking out. on a cruise this past summer i went on with them they had a flu type outbreak. i was not surprised.  they seem to always miss the mark because the other cruise lines don't seem to have as many outbreaks as princess does. they seem to always be in the news for norovirus. is it the ships? demographic? the ports? i just don't understand why. they aren't doing something right here.

 

pokerguy90"How are we to believe it is really safe even after the ships are back to revenue cruising? Ah, thats where the politics comes in.  Do we have blind faith? Do we wear hazmat suites for 7 days in the carib. Will buffets only be served by gloved staff?  Oh, and WHEN that first case of Noro I mentioned before rears its ugly head. Will that be the end of cruising? Or will we just forgo better judgement and roll the dice when they are giving cruises away, just to get people back."

 

if you didnt stop cruising due to the norovirus outbreak, i don't feel you should stop cruising now. cruise lines will always have an issue because no matter how many/much standards they have in place, the passengers will always be the fact here. someone will always lie on those forms and bring their sickness onboard. i think the real question is how/if will they be able to prevent sick passengers from coming onboard. 

 

 

 

Perspective, according to the CDC about 35 million people in the US get norovirus, 5000 of them on cruise ships. 

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My 2 cents...

 

People will choose what's best for them...and should take responsibility for their actions.

Those who love to cruise will continue to cruise...the non cruising public will say cruisers are crazy.

There will be a decline in cruising, a decline in number of ships, a decline in ports, a decline in the trend of bigger and bigger ships.

People are unemployed, people are sick,...people are dying...the last thing people need to hear is someone going on a cruise.

 

Politics?  Place your anger towards CHINA...yes CHINA.

China knew about the virus back in November.

Thousands upon thousands FLED Wuhan knowing they are going to be quarantined...where did they all go?

Let me be clear...it's the communist chinese government responsible for lying and it's propaganda...not the people.

 

That's my 2 cents...

 

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Perspective, yesterday more Americans died of Covid-19 than die of Norovirus in a year.

 

Note: not “as of  yesterday” but the one day death rate of Covid-19 is greater than Norovirus in a year.

 

Perspective, the death toll of Covid-19 in the US has surpassed the death toll of 9/11.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

 

 

Perspective, the death toll of Covid-19 in the US has surpassed the death toll of 9/11.

 

 

And all of Desert Storm/Shield included.

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30 minutes ago, bonsai3s said:

Politics?  Place your anger towards CHINA...yes CHINA.

China knew about the virus back in November.

 

The US (and the whole world) knew about the virus back in mid-Jan, within a very short time of China narrowing down its genetic sequence. 

 

The US opted to pretend it wasn't a big deal until just a few weeks ago.

 

I will continue to place my anger towards all the world governments who decided to underreact. 

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Just now, AdoraBelle said:

 

The US (and the whole world) knew about the virus back in mid-Jan, within a very short time of China narrowing down its genetic sequence. 

 

The US opted to pretend it wasn't a big deal until just a few weeks ago.

 

I will continue to place my anger towards all the world governments who decided to underreact. 

Agreed.  Also, as a US citizen I am in no position to hold the leaders of China responsible for their actions.  But I can hold my elected officials accountable for their actions or inactions.

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