NSW Police has ordered Pacific Explorer to leave Sydney!!

[The_Big_M]

7 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

It does seem this pandemic has highlighted a bit of an issue when it comes to who is responsible for a cruise ship. The ship is registered in one country, the company's headquarters are in another country but the ship's tour route is in a completely different part of the world. This makes it easy for countries to say your ship is not our problem. This is another issue cruise lines will need to sort out before they can get business running again. 

 

It's the same issue with any ship though (or even cars for that matter). No country is really responsible e.g. those yachties who are locally registered don't have a claim either. That's why they have to pay for an expensive berth, or be out of the way or on their own private property.

 

But convention lets them be there, after paying the necessary berthing/docking fee. This phobia is just an overreaction.

[The_Big_M]

6 hours ago, Pushka said:

We must have freight. They carry oil, medicines, supplies. We don't need cruise ships at the moment. 

 

So it's all just what we want? Who cares about the crews and sensible operations? 

 

Pretty poor ethics there. Don't think people would be happy if those businesses treated us the same way.

 

 

[The_Big_M]

5 hours ago, ivanp91 said:

 

Qantas has no aircraft "based" outside of Australia. They have a foreign crew base in the UK, but they don't have actual aircraft attached to it. All are VH (Australian) registered, and ultimately home-based out of Mascot.

 

There are the various Jetstar subsidiaries, but their aircraft are locally-registered with their headquarters in their respective countries.

 

Yes, that's what I was referring to. Jetstar NZ, Jetstar Asia and so on have their planes overseas and register them elsewhere where it is more beneficial. There's been a scandal last year with the treatment of their foreign crew flying here as well, and the much poorer conditions they have.

[ilikeanswers]

56 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

But convention lets them be there, after paying the necessary berthing/docking fee. This phobia is just an overreaction.

 

Convention is nice when times are good but it doesn't give you legal rights or guarantees when the situation changes. That isn't a good way to run a business, you need to be prepared for when things go bad and should not solely rely on goodwill. Regardless of personal feelings on the matter cruise lines are going to need come up with better plans for the future because I suspect countries are going to be tightening the leash on cruise ships and will probably be more willing to kick them out of ports. 

[MMDown Under]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Convention is nice when times are good but it doesn't give you legal rights or guarantees when the situation changes. That isn't a good way to run a business, you need to be prepared for when things go bad and should not solely rely on goodwill. Regardless of personal feelings on the matter cruise lines are going to need come up with better plans for the future because I suspect countries are going to be tightening the leash on cruise ships and will probably be more willing to kick them out of ports. 

Cruise lines have misused their power in the past and haven't always treated countries well.  Countries will now take this opportunity to level the playing field.

[Pushka]

6 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

So it's all just what we want? Who cares about the crews and sensible operations? 

 

Pretty poor ethics there. Don't think people would be happy if those businesses treated us the same way.

 

 

Do not take that comment out of context. Crew have been assessed and treated where necessary. They have served their 14 day period to determine any future infections. They have been provisioned and refuelled. What purpose is there to still be here? They are not Australian citizens They are not Australian companies and our borders closed to all non citizens who aren't here on visas, weeks ago but even they have been told to return home. 
 

For gods sake, Australia is no pariah here. Go check out what other countries are doing. USA is even doing similar to their own citizens stuck on cruise ships where their companies are American. Ya think Canada, Indonesia, Phillipines, UK would do anything different? No, not when it comes to reality but some countries can virtue speak because they know it will never happen to them but can preach high morale ground to others. 
 

Just as every country is experiencing a whole new world, so is the cruise industry who have had a dream run of avoiding accountability. And taxes. And fair wages. Those days are gone. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Pushka

[lyndarra]

If crew are free of infection I see no reason why idle ships cannot layup in Australian ports. Provisioning and bunkering could be putting money in the pockets of local businesses and workers.

[Vader1111]

16 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

They would need some hotel staff - cooks, waiters, a small number of room stewards. I suppose there would need to be some maintenance staff to chip the rust off the rails etc.

The hotel is closed, so no need for room stewards - the only people on board now are crew members, who are responsible for cleaning their own cabins. 

 

I did say that they would need chefs to feed the remaining staff.  I include maintenance staff in engineering.  I'm not sure whether or not they'd need waiters, but I suspect not - the remaining chefs will just do double duty with cooking & dispensing of the food.

[Aus Traveller]

9 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

So it's all just what we want? Who cares about the crews and sensible operations?

Pretty poor ethics there. Don't think people would be happy if those businesses treated us the same way.

I agree with your comments. The large cruise companies are paying to charter planes etc. to fly their passengers home. They are not discriminating on which nationality they will take care of.

[Aus Traveller]

31 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

The hotel is closed, so no need for room stewards - the only people on board now are crew members, who are responsible for cleaning their own cabins. 

 

I did say that they would need chefs to feed the remaining staff.  I include maintenance staff in engineering.  I'm not sure whether or not they'd need waiters, but I suspect not - the remaining chefs will just do double duty with cooking & dispensing of the food.

Officers have steward to clean their cabins. The waiters/stewards/cleaners do clean their own cabins. The officers would probably still have meals in the Officers' Mess, while the other crew would have their meals in the crew dining room where the food is available buffet style. Maybe the chefs could serve the meals in the Officers' Mess.

[Vader1111]

36 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Officers have steward to clean their cabins. The waiters/stewards/cleaners do clean their own cabins. The officers would probably still have meals in the Officers' Mess, while the other crew would have their meals in the crew dining room where the food is available buffet style. Maybe the chefs could serve the meals in the Officers' Mess.

If they're cutting back to essential personnel only, then the officers can clean their own cabins.  And yes, I would envisage the chefs doing both cooking & serving of food.

 

If they're cutting it down to essential personnel and services only, then there is no reason at all why the officers should be dining separately from the rest of the crew.  The officers' dining room would be one of the first things to close, once the crew numbers drop from ~2000 to ~150.

[The_Big_M]

3 hours ago, Pushka said:

Do not take that comment out of context. Crew have been assessed and treated where necessary. They have served their 14 day period to determine any future infections. They have been provisioned and refuelled. What purpose is there to still be here? They are not Australian citizens They are not Australian companies and our borders closed to all non citizens who aren't here on visas, weeks ago but even they have been told to return home. 
 

For gods sake, Australia is no pariah here. Go check out what other countries are doing. USA is even doing similar to their own citizens stuck on cruise ships where their companies are American. Ya think Canada, Indonesia, Phillipines, UK would do anything different? No, not when it comes to reality but some countries can virtue speak because they know it will never happen to them but can preach high morale ground to others. 
 

Just as every country is experiencing a whole new world, so is the cruise industry who have had a dream run of avoiding accountability. And taxes. And fair wages. Those days are gone. 

 

That assessment and treatment itself took longer than necessary and appears to have only happened after they were ordered out and refused, i.e. after further negotiation.

 

Our borders are closed to future entries - I'm not advocating ships of the world make their way here. Just those currently there shelter in place - which is exactly the same as other foreigners who are already here. They haven't kicked people out - only cruise ships.

 

I'm not sure of your reference to the US. All I've read is that ships were and still have been allowed into ports there, though in the same situation. Ships are already going to Indonesia and Philippines so that appears to be incorrect as well. I haven't made any claims of us being a pariah or not, as I honestly don't care what others are doing - but that we do the right thing. This ban is inexcusable and unjustified.

 

For your last, you may have some arguments there - but then why weren't they raised earlier, in good times? I haven't heard them raised then. They're separate issues - and aren't even being used as blackmail now so appear unrelated. If that was the argument then that's what we should hear - cruise ships are allowed in if e.g. taxation changes. As that hasn't happened, that's just a straw man argument.

[Blackduck59]

6 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

If they're cutting back to essential personnel only, then the officers can clean their own cabins.  And yes, I would envisage the chefs doing both cooking & serving of food.

 

If they're cutting it down to essential personnel and services only, then there is no reason at all why the officers should be dining separately from the rest of the crew.  The officers' dining room would be one of the first things to close, once the crew numbers drop from ~2000 to ~150.

 

Clearly you have never served in a ship, there is a reason why officers do not dine with the crew or do cleaning stations. I won't bother to explain why, but similar to the idea that you don't have lunch with the CEO of Woolworth's when you work in the mail room.

[Pushka]

16 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

I'm not sure of your reference to the US. All I've read is that ships were and still have been allowed into ports there, though in the same situation. Ships are already going to Indonesia and Philippines so that appears to be incorrect as well. I haven't made any claims of us being a pariah or not, as I honestly don't care what others are doing - but that we do the right thing. This ban is inexcusable and unjustified.

 

Coral Princess was just recently refused a berth at a US port (FLL) until Miami allowed them to berth under strict conditions. People are still onboard several days later. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Pushka

[The_Big_M]

Thanks, though as you say they've docked now. I also haven't heard that they are kicking out/moving ships on, so presume she can stay there (or some alternate longer term berth) when emptied.

[Aus Traveller]

9 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Clearly you have never served in a ship, there is a reason why officers do not dine with the crew or do cleaning stations. I won't bother to explain why, but similar to the idea that you don't have lunch with the CEO of Woolworth's when you work in the mail room.

I agree. And I can't imagine the Captain or the senior officers cleaning their own bathrooms or going to the ship's laundry to launder their clothes and bed sheets.

[Aus Traveller]

25 minutes ago, Pushka said:

 

Coral Princess was just recently refused a berth at a US port (FLL) until Miami allowed them to berth under strict conditions. People are still onboard several days later. 

Some are still on board the Coral Princess, but passengers have been disembarked when flights or cars for Florida residents have been available.

 

P.S. Only 70 passengers left on the Coral after the current lot of disembarkations. They are probably from countries where there are only a small number of people so it is difficult to arrange charter flights.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Aus Traveller

[rickays]

58 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

That assessment and treatment itself took longer than necessary and appears to have only happened after they were ordered out and refused, i.e. after further negotiation.

 

Our borders are closed to future entries - I'm not advocating ships of the world make their way here. Just those currently there shelter in place - which is exactly the same as other foreigners who are already here. They haven't kicked people out - only cruise ships.

 

I'm not sure of your reference to the US. All I've read is that ships were and still have been allowed into ports there, though in the same situation. Ships are already going to Indonesia and Philippines so that appears to be incorrect as well. I haven't made any claims of us being a pariah or not, as I honestly don't care what others are doing - but that we do the right thing. This ban is inexcusable and unjustified.

 

For your last, you may have some arguments there - but then why weren't they raised earlier, in good times? I haven't heard them raised then. They're separate issues - and aren't even being used as blackmail now so appear unrelated. If that was the argument then that's what we should hear - cruise ships are allowed in if e.g. taxation changes. As that hasn't happened, that's just a straw man argument.

 

Quote on 9News Mr Outram said the decision to move the ships on meant 13,000 crew members would soon be outside Australian borders.  That is 13,000 crew that were sitting on ships aimlessly wandering around our shores - for how long?  Do you think cruising will be back in a month or two or even 6?  With this move the cruise companies maybe will now let the unnecessary crew members go home to their families.  RCL ships have departed and are taking their crew home, its time for the others to do the same.

[Blackduck59]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

 

Coral Princess was just recently refused a berth at a US port (FLL) until Miami allowed them to berth under strict conditions. People are still onboard several days later. 

 

The Canadians came home this morning on a chartered plane, I'm not sure if they will be quarantined at a Canadian Forces Base like the Diamond Princess and Grand Princess groups were. The Canadians from Eclipse are at their homes to "self isolate", which is all well and good until someone refuses to comply. Story came out today that some couple here on Vancouver Island known to have returned from abroad (don't know where, or if it was a cruise, by air or by car) blatantly told the enforcement officer they were not going to comply. I'm not sure why the RCMP hasn't attended their home to arrest them for contravening the Quarantine Act. Grrrr🤔 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Blackduck59

[Pushka]

1 minute ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

The Canadians came home this morning on a chartered plane, I'm not sure if they will be quarantined at a Canadian Forces Base like the Diamond Princess and Grand Princess groups were. The Canadians from Eclipse are at their homes to "self isolate", which is all well and good until someone refuses to comply. Story came out today that some couple here on Vancouver Island known to have returned from abroad (don't know where, or if it was a cruise, by air or by car) blatantly told the enforcement officer they were not going to comply. I'm not sure why the RCMP hasn't attended their home to arrest them for contravening the Quarantine Act. Grrrr🤔 

That is so concerning for everyone. I don't understand why the authorities just aren't ensuring they comply with the law. One or two people in Australia have had more than two warnings before action was taken. One guy was propping open the fire escape door so he could go visit his girlfriend. 

[Blackduck59]

Pushka. I don't understand either; we are slowing the curve here. No new cases on the island in the last 24 hours, and the recovery rate is upwards of 70% so people here are trying and then we hear about this. Not cool🙄

[SeaDog-46]

There seems to be a lot of Hog-wash on this thread by some who know nothing about what they are spouting.  "Better to be thought a fool & say nothing,  than open your mouth & prove it."

 

All ships have a Minimum Manning Certificate.  Cruise ships are over manned on the bridge [Deck Officers] & engine room [Engineer Officers].  These could be reduced to the normal merchant ship bridge & engine room manning of 1 officer & 1 rating per watch,  plus the Ch.Eng. an Electrician & Master.  There are 3 watches.  

In addition there also needs to be a Bosun & some seaman to tie up the ship. These are the crew you see painting, driving tenders & doing other work around the ship. In the catering dept. there could be 1 or 2 cooks  [no chefs]  a Ch. Stwd. & a couple of stewards to serve meals to the officers & maintain cabins.

This would be the absolute minimum on the cruise ships without passengers.

 

Ships officers spend years moving up the ladder & this includes passing 3 major certificates with the Flag state - port marked on stern.  P&O Australia & Princess have some of the best qualified officers because they have to have certificates acceptable to the flag state - UK.  As apposed to registration in FOC countries on other cruise lines where the quality of certificates are not necessary so high.

Part of an officer position says they have steward service.  As for an officers dining room on a cruise ship - I don't think they have one. They use passengers dining areas or get meals & eat them in officers mess room.

There own laundry could/would be DIY or the ship does it especially for senior officers.

 

Some modern container ships built for low manning have no more than 20 onboard.  All turn out to moor the ship. 

As for all merchant ships having Chinese crews - this is nonsense.  They are only usually found on Hong Kong & Chinese registered ships.  Crews are mainly from Philippines, India, Eastern Europe & other Asian countries.

There has been only a slight disruption to Merchant ships in Australia. One requirement is vessel that have called into China must have 14 days at sea before berthing.

Tankers continue to bring in refined fuel mainly from Singapore. A few crude oil tankers arrive at our only 4 refineries still operating.  Bulk carriers wait outside our ore / coal ports waiting to load.  Container ships move hundreds of containers in & out.  LNG is exported from Dampier, Darwin & Gladstone. None or little disruption to these trades.  The main problem is crew changes.

I sailed in the Merchant Navy for 44 years & generally things have not changed that much.

For a few years sailed under various FOC flags with crews from Philippines, Indonesia, West Africa, India, plus some mixed, but mainly Australia & UK. 

John

[NSWP]

Geez the NSW Police are getting a bit of a pounding from a lot of people, not fair.   In days gone by anybody who had a go at cops got thrown in the slammer, guaranteed.😈

[SeaDog-46]

Les the commisioner proved himself a right peasant when he called Ruby Princess a  BOAT.  So did The Honourable Gladys.

 

Maybe they have leaned something in the debarcle as he now calls Ruby P. a ship.

[Blackduck59]

Les, I hope you don't think my recent comment was taking a run at NSW Police. I do think they could have handled this better. In my opinion the whole "ordering the ship to leave" was a bit much, shouldn't that order come from the Crown? With the police obliged to enforce it? What happened seemed like the commissioner acted unilaterally. Of course both our countries being part of the commonwealth the laws would be similar but different. So perhaps the Commissioner could make that blanket order.

I did have a bit of a run at our own RCMP a few posts back, I can't understand how a couple of travelers who returned after the Quarantine Act was declared are blatantly refusing to comply with the self isolation requirement. Don't understand why they weren't arrested and charged. No use having a law in place if you don't enforce it.