Please explain requirement for U.S. cruises to leave the country.......

[Travelcat2]

Occasionally posters reference the law(?) that when going from one state to another in the U.S. the ship needs to visit a foreign port.  Obviously, this really affects Alaska cruises - particularly this year.

 

So, while I'm hoping that someone will explain this law, it would seem that, if it could be suspended this year, it would allow cruise ships to skip Canada and go straight to Alaska.  It could allow allow "Pacific Coast" cruises such as Seattle to Los Angeles or San Diego (with stops in Astoria, OR, San Francisco, Santa Barbara, etc.  

 

Alaska is our largest state and has a very low number of people with coronavirus (around 150) in the entire state.  Plus, there are positive signs that the cases in Washington state have leveled a bit and new cases are expected to fall.  I would not be surprised if it were safe to travel out of Seattle by June (while Canada will not open their ports until July).

 

Thank you for any explanations of this strange law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SusieQft]

I seriously doubt that Alaska will want to be on the "bleeding edge" of port re-opening, since a cruise ship full of people shedding virus would not be very helpful for their own very early place on the curve.  Being spread out geographically is no doubt helping Alaska in this, especially since people are probably still effectively home bound, but the cruises will go to population centers where it is not as spread out and it will also be warmer so that people will be moving about and interacting more.  

 

The restriction on US only sailings will protect them from the virus as an unintended consequence, and IMO it would be very foolish for Alaska to push for a temporary change in the law.  A permanent change would be nice, but I don't see that happening either.

[Portolan]

17 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

Occasionally posters reference the law(?) that when going from one state to another in the U.S. the ship needs to visit a foreign port.  Obviously, this really affects Alaska cruises - particularly this year.

 

So, while I'm hoping that someone will explain this law, it would seem that, if it could be suspended this year, it would allow cruise ships to skip Canada and go straight to Alaska.  It could allow allow "Pacific Coast" cruises such as Seattle to Los Angeles or San Diego (with stops in Astoria, OR, San Francisco, Santa Barbara, etc.  

 

Alaska is our largest state and has a very low number of people with coronavirus (around 150) in the entire state.  Plus, there are positive signs that the cases in Washington state have leveled a bit and new cases are expected to fall.  I would not be surprised if it were safe to travel out of Seattle by June (while Canada will not open their ports until July).

 

Thank you for any explanations of this strange law.

 

 

The restriction is due to the Jones Act which requires that cruises/voyages by all non-US flagged ships make a port call outside the US (not necessarily between each port call in the US...just once in the cruise).  Since all cruise ships are foreign flagged (except for some river boats), that's why they all make swings to Mexico or Canada even when most cruising on the west cost.  It was intended to encourage US registration, but hasn't had much effect.  More than you want to know here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

 

And, I agree with you that it ought to be suspended during the coronavirus pandemic.

[Travelcat2]

Thanks Portolan.  That is really helpful.  I seem to remember that at one time, the NCL ship  that circles Hawaii was registered in the US but I could be mistaken.

 

 

SusieQft - Sorry - I wasn't suggesting that the ports open up before it is safe too do so.  There are huge differences of opinion as to when that could occur.  I feel that it will be this summer while others believe that it will be next year.  Time will tell.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Travelcat2

[puppycanducruise]

I believe it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA).  The Jones act refers to cargo.

[Portolan]

16 minutes ago, puppycanducruise said:

I believe it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA).  The Jones act refers to cargo.

You're right.  The link I provided explains the provisions for passengers with links to the PVSA.

 

19 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

Thanks Portolan.  That is really helpful.  I seem to remember that at one time, the NCL ship  that circles Hawaii was registered in the US but I could be mistaken.

It was given a special exemption while not fully complying with US law. 

 

[SusieQft]

35 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

SusieQft - Sorry - I wasn't suggesting that the ports open up before it is safe too do so.  There are huge differences of opinion as to when that could occur.  I feel that it will be this summer while others believe that it will be next year.  Time will tell.

My point is that, whenever cruises restart, we will not KNOW it is safe at first.  And if we restart this summer, we definitely will not KNOW it is safe until after the cruises have been going for a while.  Even then, if/when a "second wave" of coronavirus starts, we could end up with a second wave of last minute cruise cancellations as well. 

 

Yes, it might remotely be possible to restart cruises this summer (which will start only about a week before the end of June, anyway), and the brave souls who sail then will test out the theory that it is safe.  After that, we may leave the realm of "huge differences of opinion" and enter the realm of facts.

 

I am desperately hoping that cruises restart this summer and are safe (and tested), so that I can be more comfortable with sailing on my October 2020 and January 2021 bookings.

Edited April 2, 2020 by SusieQft

[DaveFr]

The applicable act is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) which was enacted 34 years before the Jones Act. It applies when a cruise begins and ends at an US port. If the cruise begins and ends at different US ports, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port at some point during the cruise. A round trip cruise from a US port has to stop at either a nearby or distant foreign port.  All of North America, including Central America, Bermuda and the Caribbean except for the ABC islands, is categorized as nearby foreign ports. South America and the ABC islands are the closest distant foreign parts to the US. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886) That is why RT Hawaiian cruses from Los Angeles or San Diego make a short stop in Ensenada. My first cruise was supposed to be between Vancouver and San Diego.  However, when embarkation was changed to Seattle, disembarkation had to be changed to Ensenada to comply with the PVSA.

 

I am a little apprehensive of what might happen if the cabotage laws are relaxed.  It might be similar to what happens to Mom and Pop businesses when a big box store arrives in town.

 

Dave

[GrJ Berkshire]

51 minutes ago, Portolan said:

 

The restriction is due to the Jones Act which requires that cruises/voyages by all non-US flagged ships make a port call outside the US (not necessarily between each port call in the US...just once in the cruise).  Since all cruise ships are foreign flagged (except for some river boats), that's why they all make swings to Mexico or Canada even when most cruising on the west cost.  It was intended to encourage US registration, but hasn't had much effect.  More than you want to know here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

 

And, I agree with you that it ought to be suspended during the coronavirus pandemic.

Why?

Might encourage sensible flagging, one of the key problems of the cruise industry.

You can't just close out the world, anyway US has the covid19 virus worst than anywhere else, so why 'foreign ' ships should just cruise USA?

[daetchief]

The Norwegian Pride of America is in fact US flagged and does the 7-Day Hawaiian Island Cruise out of Honolulu.   The crew is probably not all US Citizens, a goodly portion are,  but they all are working under US Labor laws.  It once was that the ship made a high speed trip to Vanuatu for a 4-6 hour beach picnic...

[Anchorbuoy]

1 hour ago, Travelcat2 said:

Thank you for any explanations of this strange law.

 

Jones Act and PVSA: What's the Difference, and How Do They Affect My Cruise?

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=3363

[Portolan]

13 minutes ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

Why?

Might encourage sensible flagging, one of the key problems of the cruise industry.

You can't just close out the world, anyway US has the covid19 virus worst than anywhere else, so why 'foreign ' ships should just cruise USA?

It also requires that the ships be US-built.  Eliminates all ocean cruise ships sailing and requires a long-dead US cruise ship building capability.

 

A possible compromise would allow US-flagging of foreign-built cruise ships if the cruise companies also relocate their corporations to the US and adhere to the other requirements of US Law.  They just can't afford, especially now, with replacing fleets with US-built vessels.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Travelcat2]

29 minutes ago, DaveFr said:

 

 

I am a little apprehensive of what might happen if the cabotage laws are relaxed.  It might be similar to what happens to Mom and Pop businesses when a big box store arrives in town.

 

Dave

 

Could you elaborate on your comment above?  Why would relaxing the laws cause a problem?  Would more cruise lines be forced to register in the U.S.?   

[rallydave]

45 minutes ago, Portolan said:

You're right.  The link I provided explains the provisions for passengers with links to the PVSA.

 

It was given a special exemption while not fully complying with US law. 

 

The ship is US flagged with an all US crew as required by PVSA and is the only Ocean Cruise Ship flagged in the US  and don't believe there was a special exemption as it does comply with the PVSA.

[jeb_bud]

3 minutes ago, rallydave said:

The ship is US flagged with an all US crew as required by PVSA and is the only Ocean Cruise Ship flagged in the US  and don't believe there was a special exemption as it does comply with the PVSA.

I think the exemption was to allow a foreign-built ship to be flagged in the USA. 

[rallydave]

2 minutes ago, jeb_bud said:

I think the exemption was to allow a foreign-built ship to be flagged in the USA. 

Makes sense,, thanks for the clarification.

[Travelcat2]

34 minutes ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

Why?

Might encourage sensible flagging, one of the key problems of the cruise industry.

You can't just close out the world, anyway US has the covid19 virus worst than anywhere else, so why 'foreign ' ships should just cruise USA?

 

I respectfully question your comment that the U.S. has the most cases of covid-19 in the world.  One can really not compare a small country with a country with 320-330M people.  Check out these maps https://brilliantmaps.com/how-the-us-fits-into-the-world/. If you take Spain and Italy alone, they have the same amount of case as the U.S. and far fewer people.  If you add a couple other European (or former European) countries (that would still fit within the U.S.,) the numbers far exceed that of the U.S.

 

 

[jeb_bud]

Actually Vatican City has it the worst, on a per capita basis. On a per capita basis the USA is down the list a ways, but significantly harder hit than China. 

[GrJ Berkshire]

Raw numbers are highest in US , did not say pro - rata or per head of population.

However your President  has .even suggested 200000 deaths in US  pro- rata this is not in the same league as Europe, regardless of size / population .

 

[rallydave]

8 minutes ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

I respectfully question your comment that the U.S. has the most cases of covid-19 in the world.  One can really not compare a small country with a country with 320-330M people.  Check out these maps https://brilliantmaps.com/how-the-us-fits-into-the-world/. If you take Spain and Italy alone, they have the same amount of case as the U.S. and far fewer people.  If you add a couple other European (or former European) countries (that would still fit within the U.S.,) the numbers far exceed that of the U.S.

 

 

Have absolutely no clue how that link has anything to do with the number of people having cases of Corvid-19.  There is an old saying that figures don't lie but, liars do figure.

 

In the cas of number of cases, by shear numbers, US has the most confirmed cases.  Some people use confirmed cases to population which might be what you are talking about but, by shear numbers, US has the most confirmed reported cases.

 

And the words confirmed reported is very important in this issue.  For instance China has not increased their number of cases in several weeks and we all know how implausible that is.   Plus we all know that many people remain untested and most likely at least some of them are infected.  So, whether is have the most cases in the US or don't is a matter of how one phrases the question and/or response so Gr J is correct based on the reported positive cases and how he or she phrased the response. 

[jeb_bud]

It’s a matter of definitions. In this case the definition of the word worst. Is it worse to have high gross number of infected people or to have a higher percentage of the population infected?
 

[rallydave]

21 minutes ago, jeb_bud said:

It’s a matter of definitions. In this case the definition of the word worst. Is it worse to have high gross number of infected people or to have a higher percentage of the population infected?
 

Would think a higher percentage infected would be worst and why Italy and Spain are in such trouble since a higher percentage of infected people means a better chance for the non-infected people to become infected.   So yes, the US has more tested and confirmed people however s smaller percentage of infected people than several other countries.

[Isklaar]

2 hours ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

you add a couple other European (or former European) countries (that would still fit within the U.S.,) the numbers far exceed that of the U.S.

 

 

 

Which countries are 'former European' countries? 

[Travelcat2]

2 hours ago, GrJ Berkshire said:

Raw numbers are highest in US , did not say pro - rata or per head of population.

However your President  has .even suggested 200000 deaths in US  pro- rata this is not in the same league as Europe, regardless of size / population .

 

 

As I've said many times, don't believe anything you hear - no matter who says it.  No one knows how many people will ultimately die from coronavirus and, IMHO, it is reckless to make those sort of predictions.  Unfortunately, doctors, government officials and even scientists have provided wrong information to the citizens of the U.S.  I'm not saying that it was done intentionally but it continually happens (even today).

 

jeb_bud - either you or I are reading incorrect information.  Just looked up Vatican City (as of April 2).  They have 6 cases of coronavirus with 0 deaths.  

 

Isklaar - I was referring to the United Kingdom.  

 

Dave - I think I've gotten to the point where I am arguing with myself.  I did think that it would be a good idea to do west coast itineraries.  What I didn't consider is that people in states that are still active could fly (or drive) to the embarkation port.  

 

I did not start this as a coronavirus thread but, given what is going on in the world right now, most things that we are doing (or not doing) has to do with the virus.  This thread is no exception.  I am learning reasons why being able to go to Alaska or on Pacific Coast itineraries will not work while the coronavirus is active,  

Edited April 2, 2020 by Travelcat2

[DaveFr]

2 hours ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

Could you elaborate on your comment above?  Why would relaxing the laws cause a problem?  Would more cruise lines be forced to register in the U.S.?   

Jackie, I was thinking about the possibility of cruise lines adding short cruises such as, LA to San Diego, LA to Santa Barbara, LA to San Francisco, Seattle to Portland, etc. Those cruises might be very popular which could have an effect on non-cruise businesses that now service those routes. Pure speculation on my part but something to think about.

 

Dave