Tap Air

[relldy01]

Was anyone scheduled for a flight from the cancelled Constellation leaving Dubai 4/1?  The ship was scheduled to leave from Rome and then changed to Barcelona and then cancelled all together.  Our flight was booked through American Express Travel and the Tap Air (air portugal).  TAP is refusing to refund our monies and American Express tells us that TAP will give s a voucher but no information on how to receive that voucher.  TAP will not discuss with me and states that we must go back through AMX.  According to email that I received, from AMX,  we must travel on TAP before 12/31/20.  Celebrity is paying for our change fees (thank you, Celebrity).  Does anyone believe that TAP will continue to be in business after this virus is gone?  What a mess!!

[omeinv]

Why would TAP refund your ticket price? You purchased a ticket, and you chose to cancel that ticket.  Your reason was certainly valid, you know longer needed to fly to the destination.  The fact that they are issuing you a voucher, presumably for your purchase amount, minus change fees, is exactly what they were contracted to do. 

 

You used AMEX as your travel agent, since you made the booking through them, rather than directly with TAP.  For that reason, of course TAP will not discuss the booking with you, and is directing you back to AMEX.

 

TAP is the national airline of Portugal, and 50% owned by Portugal itself, so they probably have a better chance of surviving this downturn than most.  Also, they're part of Star Alliance, so you may (emphasizing "may") have opportunities to use your voucher on another Star Alliance airline. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

 

 

[Fouremco]

Unlike Celebrity, who cancelled the cruise, TAP didn't cancel the flight. Consequently, issuing a voucher instead of a refund is understandable. 

 

One point that you might want to double check is the expiry date of the voucher. Do you have to actually fly by 12/31/2020 or do you have to book a flight by 12/31/2020? When I've cancelled non-refundable flights in the past, the voucher's "use by" date was for booking, not for flying.

[wrk2cruise]

If you have travel insurance you may want to check with them if they will cover the loss if you are unable to use the voucher.  I've heard that some will cover once the voucher expires.

[omeinv]

12 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Unlike Celebrity, who cancelled the cruise, TAP didn't cancel the flight. Consequently, issuing a voucher instead of a refund is understandable. 

 

One point that you might want to double check is the expiry date of the voucher. Do you have to actually fly by 12/31/2020 or do you have to book a flight by 12/31/2020? When I've cancelled non-refundable flights in the past, the voucher's "use by" date was for booking, not for flying.

Fouremco makes an excellent point, and further, many airlines (I have no idea whether TAP is one) are extending the "use by" dates on their vouchers, due to the outbreak.

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[relldy01]

36 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Unlike Celebrity, who cancelled the cruise, TAP didn't cancel the flight. Consequently, issuing a voucher instead of a refund is understandable. 

 

One point that you might want to double check is the expiry date of the voucher. Do you have to actually fly by 12/31/2020 or do you have to book a flight by 12/31/2020? When I've cancelled non-refundable flights in the past, the voucher's "use by" date was for booking, not for flying.

TAP did cancel the 4/16 return flight.  

[relldy01]

TAP did cancel the 4/16 return flight

[kwokpot]

1 minute ago, relldy01 said:

TAP did cancel the 4/16 return flight

But did you wait for them to cancel, or you canceled before they did?
 

[relldy01]

They canceled.  We have to cancel through AMX and they said TAP will only give us a voucher.  

[kwokpot]

that

6 minutes ago, relldy01 said:

They canceled.  We have to cancel through AMX and they said TAP will only give us a voucher.  

TAP is a European airline, and by law they MUST refund your money

https://fortune.com/2020/04/02/flight-refund-plane-tickets-coronavirus-travel-canceled-trip/

Edit: They are flouting the rules, and regulators are trying to hold them accountable.

Edited April 10, 2020 by kwokpot

[omeinv]

26 minutes ago, kwokpot said:

But did you wait for them to cancel, or you canceled before they did?
 

 

24 minutes ago, relldy01 said:

They canceled.  We have to cancel through AMX and they said TAP will only give us a voucher.  

 

This is a critical point.  Did you cancel your trip BEFORE or AFTER they announced a cancellation of the 4-16-20 flight.  My reading of what you've said is you cancelled the outgoing flight, to Barcelona, TAP did not; then they cancelled the return flight.  A couple critical points:  If you cancelled the outgoing portion of the round trip, they would automatically cancel YOUR return flight, since it was a round-trip purchase.  If that's the case you are only entitled to a voucher less change fees.  Also, if you cancelled your flight, and then later TAP canceled their operation of the flight, you do not become retroactively eligible for a refund.  It's a matter of who "blinked" first. 

 

Finally, if the airline did in fact cancel first, you would be entitled to a cash refund (DOT rule in the US, similar rule in the EU).  However, pretty much all airlines are dragging their feet on refunding as they should.  They are actively lobbying for a change in the rules requiring refunds, since the they are all lacking cash flow at this point.

 

IF (emphasizing if) the airline cancelled, and you did not cancel either leg of your trip before they did; contact your credit card issuer, and dispute the charge.  They will issue a provisional credit while investigating, and if the facts support it, charge back the amount, so you get your money.  A word of caution:  DO NOT use a credit card dispute if the actual situation is not one where the airline cancelled before you did.  If you do, the credit card company may complete the charge back, but then the airline still has an enforceable debt, and would likely send the account to collections.  In short, you are bound by the terms of the contract, not the way you wish things would be. 

 

Here are the US DOT rules that apply.  Even though TAP is a foreign carrier, if the flight departs or returns to the US, the rules apply:

 

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds

 

Harris

Denver, CO

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by omeinv

[kwokpot]

13 minutes ago, omeinv said:

 

 

This is a critical point.  Did you cancel your trip BEFORE or AFTER they announced a cancellation of the 4-16-20 flight.  My reading of what you've said is you cancelled the outgoing flight, to Barcelona, TAP did not; then they cancelled the return flight.  A couple critical points:  If you cancelled the outgoing portion of the round trip, they would automatically cancel YOUR return flight, since it was a round-trip purchase.  If that's the case you are only entitled to a voucher less change fees.  Also, if you cancelled your flight, and then later TAP canceled their operation of the flight, you do not become retroactively eligible for a refund.  It's a matter of who "blinked" first. 

 

Finally, if the airline did in fact cancel first, you would be entitled to a cash refund (DOT rule in the US, similar rule in the EU).  However, pretty much all airlines are dragging their feet on refunding as they should.  They are actively lobbying for a change in the rules requiring refunds, since the they are all lacking cash flow at this point.

 

IF (emphasizing if) the airline cancelled, and you did not cancel either leg of your trip before they did; contact your credit card issuer, and dispute the charge.  They will issue a provisional credit while investigating, and if the facts support it, charge back the amount, so you get your money.  A word of caution:  DO NOT use a credit card dispute if the actual situation is not one where the airline cancelled before you did.  If you do, the credit card company may complete the charge back, but then the airline still has an enforceable debt, and would likely send the account to collections.  In short, you are bound by the terms of the contract, not the way you wish things would be. 

 

Here are the US DOT rules that apply.  Even though TAP is a foreign carrier, if the flight departs or returns to the US, the rules apply:

 

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds

 

Harris

Denver, CO

 

 

TAP has been flouting the rules. The EU has rules that state when the airline cancels a flight passengers must be given the choice for a full refund. The EU commission responsible for these rules state that COVID19 is not a reason to disregard those rules. I suspect in the coming week things may change for the European airlines that are not in compliance to the rules but I would agree with your advice to seek compensation through the credit card. What I would do is do some research as to what the specific EU regulation/rule is and include that as the reason for disputing the charge. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-transport/airlines-must-refund-flights-cancelled-because-of-coronavirus-eu-idUSKCN21Q2L2   

Edited April 10, 2020 by kwokpot

[relldy01]

Thanks for your assistance with this issue.  We did not have a round trip but only a return flight.  I called TAP and they told me the flight was canceled.  Not sure of the timing of AMX.  

[omeinv]

1 minute ago, kwokpot said:

TAP has been flouting the rules.

Oh indeed.  All the major US carriers have been doing the same thing (either denying refunds, or making them nearly impossible to request).  The US DOT's position is clear as well, the outbreak is not a valid excuse not to provide refunds as required.  That is exactly why I suggested the OP file a credit card dispute if the circumstances, in fact, warrant it. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[em-sk]

4 hours ago, relldy01 said:

Thanks for your assistance with this issue.  We did not have a round trip but only a return flight.  I called TAP and they told me the flight was canceled.  Not sure of the timing of AMX.  

 

Going back to your original question of will TAP be around in the future.  I think that is a given.  The TAP shareholders include the government of Portugal and it is extremely unlikely the government would ever allow TAP to go under.  It is critical to their national tourism strategy.

 

The other major shareholder is a fellow named David Neeleman who was part of the team that founded WestJet in Canada, then he went back to the US and founded JetBlue and then went to Brazil and founded Azul Airlines.  

 

[zdcatc12]

6 hours ago, omeinv said:

 However, pretty much all airlines are dragging their feet on refunding as they should.  They are actively lobbying for a change in the rules requiring refunds, since the they are all lacking cash flow at this point.

 

 

Just curious. Why do think the airlines should be dragging their feet on refunds of flights that they cancelled? They received money from you for a service that they didn't provide. What they should be doing is holding your airfare until you actually fly and then spend it. If that were the case, they wouldn't be in this bind. Do you not think that maybe some of the people who this is happening to need their money back as much as the airlines need to keep it?

[omeinv]

8 minutes ago, zdcatc12 said:

Just curious. Why do think the airlines should be dragging their feet on refunds of flights that they cancelled? They received money from you for a service that they didn't provide. What they should be doing is holding your airfare until you actually fly and then spend it. If that were the case, they wouldn't be in this bind. Do you not think that maybe some of the people who this is happening to need their money back as much as the airlines need to keep it?

Just curious.  You quoted my post, so I presume you read it.  Where do you get that I was saying they SHOULD?  I never said any such thing.  In fact I do not think they should. 

 

I am saying what they ARE doing, not what they should be doing. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

Edited April 11, 2020 by omeinv

[zdcatc12]

3 minutes ago, omeinv said:

Just curious.  Where do you get that I was saying they SHOULD?  I never said any such thing.  In fact I do not think they should. 

 

I am saying what they ARE doing, not what they should be doing. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

Your post says "However, pretty much all airlines are dragging their feet on refunding as they should. " I'm pretty sure that "as they should" means that you agree that they should. Did I read that wrong?

[omeinv]

2 minutes ago, zdcatc12 said:

Your post says "However, pretty much all airlines are dragging their feet on refunding as they should. " I'm pretty sure that "as they should" means that you agree that they should. Did I read that wrong?

Had I inserted a comma after the word "refunding" it would say what you apparently think it does.  As written should modifies "refunding", not "dragging their feet".  For Heaven's sake I even provided the OP a link to the rules requiring the airline to do so, and advised how to initiate a credit card dispute. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

Edited April 11, 2020 by omeinv

[Lois R]

Glad I found this thread.  I am waiting for 2 credits from TAP.  Yes, I did cancel but one flight was a refundable ticket.

I have been in touch with them but nothing is showing up on my VISA.  I was told it would take 30 days....today

is 30 days.  Fortunately it was not a large amount of $$$ but of course that is not really the point.  When I called

more recently, (and finally got through) they now said it could take up to 60 days.  I have the refund numbers,

etc....you can check the status of your refund on line.  Nothing has changed so I guess it is just a waiting game.

[omeinv]

3 hours ago, Lois R said:

Glad I found this thread.  I am waiting for 2 credits from TAP.  Yes, I did cancel but one flight was a refundable ticket.

I have been in touch with them but nothing is showing up on my VISA.  I was told it would take 30 days....today

is 30 days.  Fortunately it was not a large amount of $$$ but of course that is not really the point.  When I called

more recently, (and finally got through) they now said it could take up to 60 days.  I have the refund numbers,

etc....you can check the status of your refund on line.  Nothing has changed so I guess it is just a waiting game.

Lois,

 

Assuming you paid with a credit card, you should look at your card's rules for time limits on disputing a charge.  You can sometimes find this on the back of your monthly statement, otherwise it will be in your cardmember agreement. 

 

I'm not a fan of filing disputes needlessly, but you don't want to lose the leverage you have simply because you let a date go by. The minimum is usually 60 days, and better cards extend this, but please make sure you will not let your patience work to TAP's advantage. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

[Lois R]

35 minutes ago, omeinv said:

Lois,

 

Assuming you paid with a credit card, you should look at your card's rules for time limits on disputing a charge.  You can sometimes find this on the back of your monthly statement, otherwise it will be in your cardmember agreement. 

 

I'm not a fan of filing disputes needlessly, but you don't want to lose the leverage you have simply because you let a date go by. The minimum is usually 60 days, and better cards extend this, but please make sure you will not let your patience work to TAP's advantage. 

 

Harris

Denver, CO

Hi Harris----yes, I paid with a VISA and I agree, I am not really wanting to go the "dispute route" yet.  I guess I could

call VISA…...looking at all the stuff on line makes me crazy LOL

[relldy01]

According to my email from AMX I will receive credits.  I have asked them to explain how that works and have not heard yet!  Very disappointed in AMX.  I like Lois are going crazy trying to deal with this.

[relldy01]

18 hours ago, em-sk said:

 

Going back to your original question of will TAP be around in the future.  I think that is a given.  The TAP shareholders include the government of Portugal and it is extremely unlikely the government would ever allow TAP to go under.  It is critical to their national tourism strategy.

 

The other major shareholder is a fellow named David Neeleman who was part of the team that founded WestJet in Canada, then he went back to the US and founded JetBlue and then went to Brazil and founded Azul Airlines.  

 

 

[relldy01]

That is reassuring!  Thanks for your response.