Ocean vs River Cruising CoronaVirus Issues/Concerns....

[NavyCruiser]

Although both Ocean & River cruises have been shut down during this CoronaVirus crisis.  More Ocean liners are having majors in infections & quarantines.

My wife refuses to book any ocean cruises in the near future because of being around 3000 - 6000 passengers, & possible 1 week cruise turning into 3 weeks with quarantine.

With most river cruise ships having less than 200 passengers & being in land locked rivers and smaller ports, would assume river cruises having less chance of major issues....?

[notamermaid]

A comparison thought through by many people who like both types of travel, I am sure. Statistically, the straightforward answer is yes, river cruises have a lower risk. Having one infected person is less likely in a smaller group, pure statistics. However, that is where it becomes complicated. Let us assume there is no screening and selection of passengers pre-cruise. How long is a river cruise compared to an ocean cruise? How long will you share which areas with the infected person? Will you be on the excursion coach with that person? Let us assume a crew member could be infected instead of a passenger. So we have 250 potential carriers. You mention the ports. While many ports are small, most embarkation ports are hubs and full of people busying about.

 

If this mere laywoman that I am has got this right from videos and the BBC health editor, a bad case scenario could go like this: a newly infected person boards in Budapest. By day five that person is showing symptoms and has on average already infected three people, by day ten you have then thirteen infected, by day fifteen when you arrive in Amsterdam (which is often called the Grand European itinerary) you have forty infected on board. If we do not break the chain of infection. Does not sound too bad, but is all theoretical. If there is a suspected case on board, the ship will likely not get to Amsterdam and be quarantined somewhere along the way. Which just like on an ocean ship gives you one week of cruising and two weeks quarantine, of course. But the logistics on land around that are easier to manage on a small river cruise ship.

 

In my opinion, this is better than sailing on the ocean, psychologically. If I stay among the healthy...

 

notamermaid

 

 

[Herman The Cat]

Of course you have another alternative — the smaller Ocean ships. Crystal runs approximately 1000 passengers; Oceania between 600 -1100 passengers; Silversea (300 - 600), Seabourn etc. Or for really small, you could trying barges (though cabins are super tiny). Our TA seems to think when thinks start back up there could be some deals to get people cruising before prices ramp up. 

 

That being said, the cabins on the river ships are smaller, ships are smaller so social distancing is not as possible or easy. 

 

There will undoubtedly be new rules, regs and safety procedures. I think the days of buffets are gone, unless they have someone serving you from behind a panel; and inside cabins might have to be eliminated (air is recirculated); etc. . That being said, I’m sure the safety and cleanliness will be higher than in the past.

 

Keep in mind that cruise lines are highly regulated whereas hotels are not. The same thing could happen at a large hotel and it wouldn’t get nearly the same level of publicity. For example in 2012, all the hotels on Grace Bay in Turks & Caicos had to shut down for norovirus. But that barely got a mention in the media. 

 

It is the uncertainty and randomness of Covid-19 that makes us all concerned.

 

Let’s hope for a vaccine at some point and then the decision will be easier.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Herman The Cat

[Squawkman]

Herman - you forgot Viking Ocean - 900 passengers on all ships.

[Host Jazzbeau]

If you are already used to river cruise prices, you can also look at the really small ocean ships from Ponant and Windstar (under 200 and around 300).

[notamermaid]

47 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

If you are already used to river cruise prices, you can also look at the really small ocean ships from Ponant and Windstar (under 200 and around 300).

They sound a nice option for the OP. I think this is something I could try out some time as well. I just need to be able to see land always I think. I am rather apprehensive after bad ferry crossings experiences.

 

Jazzbeau, there are also the CroisiEurope coastal ships, for example the Belle de l'Adriatique, they are about the size of large river cruise ships with just under 200 pax. How do Ponant and Windstar compare to that?

 

notamermaid

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

CroisiEurope – La Belle de l'Adriatique – 197 pax [2007]

CroisiEurope – La Belle des Oceans – 120 pax [ex-Silver Discoverer, 1989]

 

Noble Caledonia – Caledonian Sky, Hebridean Sky, Island Sky – 118 pax [ex-Renaissance VI, VII and VIII, 1991]

 

Ponant – Le Ponant – 64 pax [2009, sailing ship]

Ponant – Le Bellot, Le Bougainville, Le Champlain, Le Dumon-d'Urville, Le Jacques Cartier, Le Laperouse – 184 pax [2018-2020]

Ponant – L'Austral, Le Boreal, Le Lyrial, Le Soleal – 264 pax [2011-2015]

Ponant – Le Commandant Charcot – 270 pax [2021, icebreaker]

Ponant – Paul Gauguin – 332 pax [1998]

 

Windstar – Star Breeze, Star Legend, Star Pride – 312 pax [ex-Seabourn, being enlarged from 212 to 312 pax]

Windstar – Wind Spirit, Wind Star – 148 pax [1988, 1986]

Windstar – Wind Surf – 312 pax [1990]

[rattanchair]

It would appear that for cruise junkies, excuse me, enthusiasts, that simply have to cruise during a pandemic; there is a great alternative available for those cruise lines plying in US waterways. The CDC has (to my understanding) not included passenger carrying vessels of under 250 passengers from their April  9, 2020 No Sail Order. This could just be a 'sell-out' for this summer's cruise season should these cruise lines come up with some decent protocols suggested by the CLIA (but turned down by the CDC as not being "robust" enough) for the virus skittish . Selling point, you are already in the US, one can just rent a car and drive home, in an emergency situation. Or call a relative to meet you along the quay of any river.

[gnome12]

It would appear that for cruise junkies, excuse me, enthusiasts, that simply have to cruise during a pandemic; there is a great alternative available for those cruise lines plying in US waterways. The CDC has (to my understanding) not included passenger carrying vessels of under 250 passengers from their April  9, 2020 No Sail Order. This could just be a 'sell-out' for this summer's cruise season should these cruise lines come up with some decent protocols suggested by the CLIA (but turned down by the CDC as not being "robust" enough) for the virus skittish . Selling point, you are already in the US, one can just rent a car and drive home, in an emergency situation. Or call a relative to meet you along the quay of any river.

It isn’t 250 passengers; it is 250 people on board including passengers and crew. I’m not sure how many ships actually qualify.


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[Squawkman]

18 minutes ago, gnome12 said:

It isn’t 250 passengers; it is 250 people on board including passengers and crew. I’m not sure how many ships actually qualify.

Viking river longships have a max of 181 guests. Keep a few cabins vacant and it can be done. Douro ships definitely make it.

[gnome12]

Viking river longships have a max of 181 guests. Keep a few cabins vacant and it can be done. Douro ships definitely make it.

Viking’s new ship on the Mississippi is quite a bit larger than the longships. Most of the American Queen ships are larger. I’m not sure about American Cruise Lines.

The CDC’s 250 person limit is for ships in American waters or calling at American ports, so has nothing to do with European cruises.


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[NavyCruiser]

Figured if someone diagnosed with a future infection, instead of being quarantined onboard your cabin a mega ocean cruise for 2 more weeks, river cruise ships can drop you off in a small European town on the way & be quarantined in a quaint little village for 2 weeks instead....

[kentchris]

9 hours ago, Squawkman said:

Viking river longships have a max of 181 guests. Keep a few cabins vacant and it can be done. Douro ships definitely make it.

Just out of interest where did you get the figure of 181? The 135m length longships can carry 190.

 

Even with half occupancy it would be extremely difficult to maintain distancing in the lounge and dining room, and it wouldn't be viable to run cruises with so many empty cabins.

Edited April 23, 2020 by kentchris

[notamermaid]

7 hours ago, NavyCruiser said:

Figured if someone diagnosed with a future infection, instead of being quarantined onboard your cabin a mega ocean cruise for 2 more weeks, river cruise ships can drop you off in a small European town on the way & be quarantined in a quaint little village for 2 weeks instead....

Nice thought, but unfortunately rules for stepping on land from an inland waterway also exist and in the case of Norovirus whole ships have been known to be quarantined on the Rhine. I can imagine that with a negative test for coronavirus you might be able to leave the ship and stay in a "sealed" apartment. But if it is allowed who will give you food? I have not read any rules yet so I can only speculate.

 

The current situation is so exceptional. I have read today that on the Elbe and Danube ship crews (barges and tankers) are even having problems returning home as their home countries have quarantine rules. When we will get to normal river traffic for leisure again is very much up in the air. Currently, in Germany, you cannot even take a rowing boat down the Rhine if it has more than two persons in it...

 

notamermaid

Edited April 23, 2020 by notamermaid
Clarification

[Ride-The-Waves]

21 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

CroisiEurope – La Belle de l'Adriatique – 197 pax [2007]

CroisiEurope – La Belle des Oceans – 120 pax [ex-Silver Discoverer, 1989]

 

Noble Caledonia – Caledonian Sky, Hebridean Sky, Island Sky – 118 pax [ex-Renaissance VI, VII and VIII, 1991]

 

Ponant – Le Ponant – 64 pax [2009, sailing ship]

Ponant – Le Bellot, Le Bougainville, Le Champlain, Le Dumon-d'Urville, Le Jacques Cartier, Le Laperouse – 184 pax [2018-2020]

Ponant – L'Austral, Le Boreal, Le Lyrial, Le Soleal – 264 pax [2011-2015]

Ponant – Le Commandant Charcot – 270 pax [2021, icebreaker]

Ponant – Paul Gauguin – 332 pax [1998]

 

Windstar – Star Breeze, Star Legend, Star Pride – 312 pax [ex-Seabourn, being enlarged from 212 to 312 pax]

Windstar – Wind Spirit, Wind Star – 148 pax [1988, 1986]

Windstar – Wind Surf – 312 pax [1990]

Compagnie du Ponant and Windstar are members of CLIA and fellow the same guidance as the "big boys."

[Ride-The-Waves]

River cruising in Europe?  Well, France and Spain are closed to tourism through the end of 2020.  Italy is closed to tourists through 31 March 2021.  Germany has canceled Octoberfest.  No word yet that I know of but its likely that European holiday markets will not open.  Where is one going to river cruise in Europe?

[acwmom]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

River cruising in Europe?  Well, France and Spain are closed to tourism through the end of 2020.  Italy is closed to tourists through 31 March 2021.  Germany has canceled Octoberfest.  No word yet that I know of but its likely that European holiday markets will not open.  Where is one going to river cruise in Europe?

I know Oktoberfest has been canceled, but what are your verified sources for France, Spain and Italy?

[Squawkman]

4 hours ago, kentchris said:

Just out of interest where did you get the figure of 181? The 135m length longships can carry 190.

 

I remember seeing it on Viking’s website a few years ago. I just checked and the ship I took evidently is no longer in service.  Most longship descriptions indicate 95 staterooms. The Legend indicates 185 guests:

 

https://www.vikingrivercruises.com/ships/prestige/viking-legend.html

 

[Roz]

You still have to fly to Europe or wherever you're river cruising from, so you'll be in very close contact with other people before you even board the river ship. 

 

3,000 - 6,000 passengers?  I've been ocean cruising since 2001, and have never been a ship with that many passengers.  

[rattanchair]

16 hours ago, gnome12 said:

It isn’t 250 passengers; it is 250 people on board including passengers and crew. I’m not sure how many ships actually qualify.


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You are correct.  I got too excited ! All they have to do is rotate some employees and limit some passengers and raise some prices to compensate.

[rattanchair]

6 hours ago, kentchris said:

and it wouldn't be viable to run cruises with so many empty cabins.

Years ago we sailed to Antarctica on the 800 passenger Marco Polo, which they had to limit to 400 for these sailings. Higher prices, less passengers, ease of zodiac landings made it the most memorable cruise of our life time, and guest lecturer Sir Edmond Hillory on board for the circumnavigation cruise. Just saying there are 'ways' to attract and price and still make money in the process.

[NavyCruiser]

1 hour ago, Roz said:

3,000 - 6,000 passengers?  I've been ocean cruising since 2001, and have never been a ship with that many passengers.  

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanpresscenter.com/fact-sheet/29/harmony-of-the-seas/

 

We've been on RCL's Harmony of the Seas (Allure of the Seas also):

5479 to 6687 guests + 2200 crew

[NavyCruiser]

3 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

River cruising in Europe?  Well, France and Spain are closed to tourism through the end of 2020.  Italy is closed to tourists through 31 March 2021.  Germany has canceled Octoberfest.  No word yet that I know of but its likely that European holiday markets will not open.  Where is one going to river cruise in Europe?

 

Can you pls give your official sources for these closures until end of year...?

Thanks,

[Roz]

11 minutes ago, NavyCruiser said:

 

https://www.royalcaribbeanpresscenter.com/fact-sheet/29/harmony-of-the-seas/

 

We've been on RCL's Harmony of the Seas (Allure of the Seas also):

5479 to 6687 guests + 2200 crew

 

I think you misunderstood my post.  I wasn't saying there are no ships with that many passengers.  I was trying to point out that mega ships aren't the only option.  I've cruised on Carnival, HAL, and Princess, and none of the ships approached 3,000 passengers.

[kentchris]

8 hours ago, rattanchair said:

Years ago we sailed to Antarctica on the 800 passenger Marco Polo, which they had to limit to 400 for these sailings. Higher prices, less passengers, ease of zodiac landings made it the most memorable cruise of our life time, and guest lecturer Sir Edmond Hillory on board for the circumnavigation cruise. Just saying there are 'ways' to attract and price and still make money in the process.

That's not a fair comparison if you think about it. European river cruising is a mass market operation, particularly for providers like Viking which is the point I was specifically responding to, unlike expedition style ocean cruising to remote parts of the globe which are otherwise extremely difficult to visit, so can attract customers even at premium prices. I'm not sure I'd travel on CMV at any price, but that's another thing...