Wall Street Journal Article

[ECCruise]

8 minutes ago, WrittenOnYourHeart said:

 

I would think that the fact that working flight attendants and pilots have died of COVID is proof enough that infection CAN happen ON planes.

That was exactly my point on tracing. They don't live on planes. They take shuttles together. Eat together. Room together in some cases. 

Plus the CDC gives guidance: 

 

Because of how air circulates and is filtered on airplanes, most viruses and other germs do not spread easily. 

 

i have no dog in this hunt except that I would be more likely to fly than take a long cruise which is all we do 

[PROCRUISE]

For what its worth, I'll be flying domestically on 5/27. Just received notice from American Airlines that starting 5/11, masks will be required for all passengers as provided by the airline along with hand sanitizer.

[ECCruise]

35 minutes ago, PROCRUISE said:

For what its worth, I'll be flying domestically on 5/27. Just received notice from American Airlines that starting 5/11, masks will be required for all passengers as provided by the airline along with hand sanitizer.

We've worn masks on most flights for the last couple years including all long haul. Have always disinfected tray tables, seat belts, IFE screens, armrests. People used to look at us like kooks😲. Not so much anymore. 😷

[phoenix_dream]

20 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

  No armchair quarterbacking whatsoever.
 

  The mainstream media was consistently warning in late January, February and March that trouble was en route - they were sneered at by Limbaugh, Fox News and their followers. More of the usual witless carping about "hype from the drive-bys" and "fake news." 
 

   Maybe if that bunch - and CCL's operations staff - had paid better attention, there would have been far fewer dead and sick passengers and crew. And maybe the cruise industry would not have brought upon itself so much public contempt, so many lawsuits or such severe CDC distrust.
    
 

I am not defending the cruise ships, nor am I a Fox News watcher FYI.  That said, I do take issue with part of what you say.  Here is a direct quote from a CDC press release on January 30th:  "For the general public, no additional precautions are recommended at this time beyond the simple daily precautions that everyone should always take. It is currently flu and respiratory disease season, and CDC recommends getting vaccinated, taking everyday preventive actions to stop the spread of germs, and taking flu antivirals if prescribed. Right now, CDC recommends travelers avoid all nonessential travel to China."

 

This was part of an announcement of the first person to person case discovered in the US.  I think to be fair, we need to remember how we were thinking at the beginning of the year.  Forget Fox News, forget CNN, whatever.  Earlier in the year, the news on ALL stations was all about what was happening in China.  Yes, it sounded very serious, but China was not forthcoming with all the necessary details.  Additionally, we had seen other viruses emerge in other countries that never really took hold in the US to any great extent for various reasons. 

 

Cruise lines then did start making adjustments to their ships located in that area.  I'm not saying they did so soon enough, but they did.  The US banned travelers from China (which, also to be fair, was very much ridiculed by many as racist), or those in contact with visitors from China and so did the cruise lines.  In fact, I was dumb enough when they moved Millie from China to the west coast to be thrilled to book an amazing cruise to Alaska.  Why would I even consider doing that??  Because at that time ALL news stories about the virus focused on it's impact on China and surrounding areas.  It was not until the weeks went by that it became clear we were all at serious risk.

 

Neither the US nor the cruise lines handled this well, no argument there.  And I'm as unhappy with Celebrity as anyone as I am now on day 45+ of awaiting a refund for a March cruise, and almost as long awaiting FCC from my April cruises, not to mention I have three more cruises booked and paid for this year not yet cancelled,  with NRD,  so I am fully expecting to be left with nothing when this is all done.

 

 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, WrittenOnYourHeart said:

 

I would think that the fact that working flight attendants and pilots have died of COVID is proof enough that infection CAN happen ON planes.

The most hazardous activities on a plane are 1. during food/drink services  2. greeting passengers when they are getting on and off of the plane.  

 

The reason why is because the crew members are close to the passenger (well within 6 feet), often leaning in to talk with and/or hear the passenger with both the crew member and the passenger talking.  That is why you have the number of cabin crew.  The pilots largely caught it from cabin crew members.  Eliminate that contact and the hazard is pretty much reduced to someone being ill two rows in from or one row back.

 

That is why the airline moved to largely eliminate those actions on a lot of flights.

 

As far as what people can do to protect themselves.  1. turn the air vent above you on full force and aim it at your face.  That air is HEPA filtered and the flow would divert air from those in your immediate area on the plane.  2. Do not talk to anyone on board, discourage others from talking in your direction  3. clean all surfaces that you come in contact with (arm rests, tray tables, etc)

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

I am not defending the cruise ships, nor am I a Fox News watcher FYI.  That said, I do take issue with part of what you say.  Here is a direct quote from a CDC press release on January 30th:  "For the general public, no additional precautions are recommended at this time beyond the simple daily precautions that everyone should always take. It is currently flu and respiratory disease season, and CDC recommends getting vaccinated, taking everyday preventive actions to stop the spread of germs, and taking flu antivirals if prescribed. Right now, CDC recommends travelers avoid all nonessential travel to China."

 

This was part of an announcement of the first person to person case discovered in the US.  I think to be fair, we need to remember how we were thinking at the beginning of the year.  Forget Fox News, forget CNN, whatever.  Earlier in the year, the news on ALL stations was all about what was happening in China.  Yes, it sounded very serious, but China was not forthcoming with all the necessary details.  Additionally, we had seen other viruses emerge in other countries that never really took hold in the US to any great extent for various reasons. 

 

Cruise lines then did start making adjustments to their ships located in that area.  I'm not saying they did so soon enough, but they did.  The US banned travelers from China (which, also to be fair, was very much ridiculed by many as racist), or those in contact with visitors from China and so did the cruise lines.  In fact, I was dumb enough when they moved Millie from China to the west coast to be thrilled to book an amazing cruise to Alaska.  Why would I even consider doing that??  Because at that time ALL news stories about the virus focused on it's impact on China and surrounding areas.  It was not until the weeks went by that it became clear we were all at serious risk.

 

Neither the US nor the cruise lines handled this well, no argument there.  And I'm as unhappy with Celebrity as anyone as I am now on day 45+ of awaiting a refund for a March cruise, and almost as long awaiting FCC from my April cruises, not to mention I have three more cruises booked and paid for this year not yet cancelled,  with NRD,  so I am fully expecting to be left with nothing when this is all done.

 

 

The Diamond happened on Feb 5.  By that time there was clear indication that the virus was spreading outside of China (cases in Singapore for example).  There was enough information out about the illness, its long incubation time, the mix of serious and minor cases, that warnings were starting to come out from experts that this would not be contained.  On Feb 5 I canceled the 3 cruises I had for March and April.

 

Even with the information out there you still have people today that don't believe that it is a problem, and many that would jump on a cruise ship today if they were sailing.

[livingonthebeach]

I couldn't read the WSJ article since I'm not a subscriber, but I believe the Congressional Investigation which was on the news yesterday, is proof enough that the cruise industry (particularly CCL) did not act as responsively as the authorities would have wished.  

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/01/849177717/carnival-cruise-line-subject-of-congressional-investigation

 

Luckily, I was in Asia on the Celebrity Millennium back in Oct of 2019 and just missed the outbreak by a few months.  I feel very blessed that I got to enjoy that part of the world which had always been on my bucket list.  The whole trip was seamless except for the pre-departure mass confusion over the need for Americans to get Chinese Visas for entry into China -- our itinerary left Shanghai for S. Korea then back to Beijing. 

 

We all received conflicting information from Celebrity and it was like pulling teeth to finally obtain the correct instructions.  I bring this up only because there was such mass confusion over this small detail that I can imagine how a pandemic could cause grand scale uncertainty.  I have to believe that for the most part, the cruise industry did try to do the right thing operating with unknown protocol.  The investigation should uncover undesired practices, if any, and hopefully set the stage for safer sailing going forward. 

[ABoatNerd]

1 hour ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Ride-the-Waves ... yes, multiple stories reach this conclusion.

 

The problem that CCL and RCI apologists overlook is that the HQ greed & ineptitude are precisely why ships are parked with no realistic restart date.

   Imagine if those companies had instead

acted smartly and responsibly. Cruising curtailed around mid-February ... so no

line of ships in April crying at the Coast Guard's gate "help, help, somebody in government fix this crisis that our foreign based business created."

     No nightmare stories of death ships, insanely long quarantines, desperately sick passengers and desperately sick crew. No hideous headlines, no lawsuits, no congressional investigation or Australian police inquiry.

     Under those circumstances, the CDC No Sail Order wouldn't be nearly so strong ... and the distrust of cruise lines wouldn't be nearly so deep.

      When the CC optimists complain about scientists, government and the media, they miss the mark - the people to blame for this crisis in cruising are Fain & the CCL exec team along with their lazy boards. 

 

Precisely stated. Congratulations. 

[npcl]

14 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

I couldn't read the WSJ article since I'm not a subscriber, but I believe the Congressional Investigation which was on the news yesterday, is proof enough that the cruise industry (particularly CCL) did not act as responsively as the authorities would have wished.  

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/01/849177717/carnival-cruise-line-subject-of-congressional-investigation

 

Luckily, I was in Asia on the Celebrity Millennium back in Oct of 2019 and just missed the outbreak by a few months.  I feel very blessed that I got to enjoy that part of the world which had always been on my bucket list.  The whole trip was seamless except for the pre-departure mass confusion over the need for Americans to get Chinese Visas for entry into China -- our itinerary left Shanghai for S. Korea then back to Beijing. 

 

We all received conflicting information from Celebrity and it was like pulling teeth to finally obtain the correct instructions.  I bring this up only because there was such mass confusion over this small detail that I can imagine how a pandemic could cause grand scale uncertainty.  I have to believe that for the most part, the cruise industry did try to do the right thing operating with unknown protocol.  The investigation should uncover undesired practices, if any, and hopefully set the stage for safer sailing going forward. 

The question comes to mind if it was incompetence or intent, when you see things like the testimony in the hearings investigating the Ruby Princess   when the medical officer on board when asked why she did not enter that Covid swabs had been taken in the records responded that she thinks she did not have time, or that she did not know why the officers did not notify the shore that COVID was suspected, and that corporate was not providing any information about the outbreak, she was just finding out about it by monitoring the news.  Or on the Eclipse when a passengers commented that he was in the medical center with his wife getting oxygen (later hospitalized in San Diego with COVID) while the Captain was announcing no illness on the ship. That the medical staff was not taking any actions to protect themselves from infectious disease.

 

One gets the feeling that the cruise lines were playing the three monkeys with COVID - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil If they did not test for it, it did not exist.  If the medical teams did not look for it, no problem.  As long as the passengers could get off all was well.  The events with the most documented cases of COVID were those where testing was taken out of the hands of the cruise lines and driven by shore side health authorities (Diamond, Grand, and Ruby) in Japan, Australia and the US due to cases detected on shore.

Edited May 2, 2020 by npcl

[yorky]

1 hour ago, WrittenOnYourHeart said:

 

I would think that the fact that working flight attendants and pilots have died of COVID is proof enough that infection CAN happen ON planes.

Along with the fact that thousands of people are sitting and eating together at airports for hours before even getting on a plane. The first known cases in Britain were in York from two individuals that had flown in. All forms of transport are of course part of the bigger picture.

[yorky]

21 minutes ago, npcl said:

The most hazardous activities on a plane are 1. during food/drink services  2. greeting passengers when they are getting on and off of the plane.  

 

The reason why is because the crew members are close to the passenger (well within 6 feet), often leaning in to talk with and/or hear the passenger with both the crew member and the passenger talking.  That is why you have the number of cabin crew.  The pilots largely caught it from cabin crew members.  Eliminate that contact and the hazard is pretty much reduced to someone being ill two rows in from or one row back.

 

That is why the airline moved to largely eliminate those actions on a lot of flights.

 

As far as what people can do to protect themselves.  1. turn the air vent above you on full force and aim it at your face.  That air is HEPA filtered and the flow would divert air from those in your immediate area on the plane.  2. Do not talk to anyone on board, discourage others from talking in your direction  3. clean all surfaces that you come in contact with (arm rests, tray tables, etc)

What about sitting together at the actual airports before the flight,  Is that not a hazard ?

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, npcl said:

The question comes to mind if it was incompetence or intent, when you see things like the testimony in the hearings investigating the Ruby Princess   when the medical officer on board when asked why she did not enter that Covid swabs had been taken in the records responded that she thinks she did not have time, or that she did not know why the officers did not notify the shore that COVID was suspected, and that corporate was not providing any information about the outbreak, she was just finding out about it by monitoring the news.  Or on the Eclipse when a passengers commented that he was in the medical center with his wife getting oxygen (later hospitalized in San Diego with COVID) while the Captain was announcing no illness on the ship. That the medical staff was not taking any actions to protect themselves from infectious disease.

 

One gets the feeling that the cruise lines were playing the three monkeys with COVID - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil If they did not test for it, it did not exist.  If the medical teams did not look for it, no problem.  As long as the passengers could get off all was well.  The events with the most documented cases of COVID were those where testing was taken out of the hands of the cruise lines and driven by shore side health authorities (Diamond, Grand, and Ruby) in Japan, Australia and the US due to cases detected on shore.

 

Which begs the question...did these ships have Covid-19 test kits onboard?   The cruise industry has historically been accused of covering things up and in some cases this reputation is justified.  However, when dealing with a novelty virus with no existing protocols and lacking the methods for testing, there is part of me that wants to give some ships (not all), the benefit of the doubt.  I agree that it was probably more prudent to stop operations in February instead of March but given all the unknown circumstances, I think criminal charges (if this is the intent of the Congressional Investigation) are not in order, IMHO.

[sonnycruises]

21 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Forgetting the media for a minute, there were questions being asked right here on the Celebrity board as far back as January, and by early February there were threads largely critical of Celebrity's handling of the situation. By early March, there were many CC members cancelling cruises on their own as Celebrity continued to ignore the obvious. Even now, after two rounds of suspensions, Celebrity chooses to ignore the CDC and offer cruises starting June 12. Defending Celebrity and accusing the media of armchair quarterbacking ignores the reality that Celebrity and the cruise industry at large had the information and simply chose not to take the necessary steps at the appropriate time.

Blame the source the CCP lied and people died!!!

[Baron Barracuda]

16 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Which begs the question...did these ships have Covid-19 test kits onboard?   The cruise industry has historically been accused of covering things up and in some cases this reputation is justified.  However, when dealing with a novelty virus with no existing protocols and lacking the methods for testing, there is part of me that wants to give some ships (not all), the benefit of the doubt.  I agree that it was probably more prudent to stop operations in February instead of March but given all the unknown circumstances, I think criminal charges (if this is the intent of the Congressional Investigation) are not in order, IMHO.

Even if ships had test kits on board (doubtful), the earlier ones had to be sent to lab for processing which took days.  Even longer if ship is still at sea.  What most bothered me were statements from dr. on Ruby Princess.  She had to know there was a problem on board but failed to communicate it to local authorities, her records were incomplete (intentional?)  and it seems incomprehensible that Princess was not in constant communication with all their ships doctors after Diamond and Grand Princess outbreaks. 

 

The populace is angry and an election is approaching so congress needs a villain to punish.  Absent a provable link to bio-lab in Wuhan looks like cruise industry is their target.

 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

I am not defending the cruise ships, nor am I a Fox News watcher FYI.  That said, I do take issue with part of what you say.  Here is a direct quote from a CDC press release on January 30th:  "For the general public, no additional precautions are recommended at this time beyond the simple daily precautions that everyone should always take. It is currently flu and respiratory disease season, and CDC recommends getting vaccinated, taking everyday preventive actions to stop the spread of germs, and taking flu antivirals if prescribed. Right now, CDC recommends travelers avoid all nonessential travel to China."

 

This was part of an announcement of the first person to person case discovered in the US.  I think to be fair, we need to remember how we were thinking at the beginning of the year.  Forget Fox News, forget CNN, whatever.  Earlier in the year, the news on ALL stations was all about what was happening in China.  Yes, it sounded very serious, but China was not forthcoming with all the necessary details.  Additionally, we had seen other viruses emerge in other countries that never really took hold in the US to any great extent for various reasons. 

 

Cruise lines then did start making adjustments to their ships located in that area.  I'm not saying they did so soon enough, but they did.  The US banned travelers from China (which, also to be fair, was very much ridiculed by many as racist), or those in contact with visitors from China and so did the cruise lines.  In fact, I was dumb enough when they moved Millie from China to the west coast to be thrilled to book an amazing cruise to Alaska.  Why would I even consider doing that??  Because at that time ALL news stories about the virus focused on it's impact on China and surrounding areas.  It was not until the weeks went by that it became clear we were all at serious risk.

 

Neither the US nor the cruise lines handled this well, no argument there.  And I'm as unhappy with Celebrity as anyone as I am now on day 45+ of awaiting a refund for a March cruise, and almost as long awaiting FCC from my April cruises, not to mention I have three more cruises booked and paid for this year not yet cancelled,  with NRD,  so I am fully expecting to be left with nothing when this is all done.

 

 

 
phoenix_dream -   
     Sorry to hear about the cruise disappointment over the past couple of months ... there is certainly plenty of company here on CC.

    As for COVID, yes there were plenty of people who could've reacted sooner and stronger.

    But as you're mentioning Jan. 31, let's remember that's also when Italy declared a state of emergency.
       https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/92889/coronavirus-update-italy-declares-state-of-emergency/ 

   By late February, tech companies in the U.S. were calling off conferences and many were banning corporate travel. In the first two days of March, Hyatt withdrew its financial guidance to Wall Street because the outlook for bookings had already plunged ... the annual Housewares Show in Chicago had called off its 50,000-attendee convention, and the international physicists had scrapped their conference of more than 10,000.  

   So, it's not as if the cruise lines had no warning. Most importantly for their civil litigation chances, we need to remember that mega-billion-dollar corporations like RCI and CCL don't base their operations solely on what TV is or isn't covering. They have an enormous international operations department, huge legal teams, top-dollar consultants and a massive network of vendors, all plugged into information that won't reach people like us until way later. 

  Even worse, the cruise industry had extraordinary experience with how quickly any virus can spread aboard a ship (too many hideous "noro cruise from hell" stories to keep track of). And worst, they'd already experienced firsthand the Diamond fiasco ... the cruise execs had access to every detail of what happened and what went wrong, including all manner of info that we may never hear.  

   As the the Fox reference, it makes a LOT of difference. Fox News people were posting on CC in February and March ... eagerly touting the Hannity/Limbaugh/Breitbart/Ingraham slop about "fake news." They gleefully repeated the messages about "ignore the leftist mainstream media hype" and "this corona thing is just the sniffles, nobody is going to remember it by April."
    Now they're busily spinning with "Oh, nobody could possibly have foreseen what happened."
    Actually, the New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, The AP, Reuters, the BBC, the Chicago Tribune, the LA Times, The Seattle Times and many, many others were giving early warnings consistently.
    People have the right to ignore reality, but that doesn't make it go away. 

[NMTraveller]

1 hour ago, yorky said:

Along with the fact that thousands of people are sitting and eating together at airports for hours before even getting on a plane. The first known cases in Britain were in York from two individuals that had flown in. All forms of transport are of course part of the bigger picture.

 

Airports are some of the dirtiest and germiest places I have ever been...  Public transportation would be the dirtiest...  Oh yes I guess that includes airports.  Aisle seats in an airplane can't be good as everyone that goes to the bathroom passes right by.  You can't filter air when someone is coughing right on top of you!

 

 

If only they would clean airports and airplanes half as well as they did cruise ships.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by NMTraveller

[livingonthebeach]

22 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Even if ships had test kits on board (doubtful), the earlier ones had to be sent to lab for processing which took days.  Even longer if ship is still at sea.  What most bothered me were statements from dr. on Ruby Princess.  She had to know there was a problem on board but failed to communicate it to local authorities, her records were incomplete (intentional?)  and it seems incomprehensible that Princess was not in constant communication with all their ships doctors after Diamond and Grand Princess outbreaks. 

 

The populace is angry and an election is approaching so congress needs a villain to punish.  Absent a provable link to bio-lab in Wuhan looks like cruise industry is their target.

 

 

Looks like the doctor didn't want to be a whistleblower.  We all know what happens to whistleblowers.  It's a sad situation all around.  Not sure playing the blame game is productive.  The Chinese people as well as all of us around the world are victims, the Chinese Communist Party definitely has a lot of explaining to do!  I fear we will never know the truth.  

[sonnycruises]

If this specific incident isn't addressed and proper responsibility assigned we could very well see another catastrophic pandemic. We had a very similar catastrophe in 1986 involving the same system of government and it was handled in an identical manner. I don't believe the world realized at the time that Chernobyl could have been magnitudes worse then what we are experiencing now. The Chinese Communist Party should be treated like a pariah by all freedom loving nations of the world.

[npcl]

2 hours ago, yorky said:

What about sitting together at the actual airports before the flight,  Is that not a hazard ?

Last time I flew the airport was not on the plane.

 

 

[npcl]

2 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Which begs the question...did these ships have Covid-19 test kits onboard?   The cruise industry has historically been accused of covering things up and in some cases this reputation is justified.  However, when dealing with a novelty virus with no existing protocols and lacking the methods for testing, there is part of me that wants to give some ships (not all), the benefit of the doubt.  I agree that it was probably more prudent to stop operations in February instead of March but given all the unknown circumstances, I think criminal charges (if this is the intent of the Congressional Investigation) are not in order, IMHO.

The Ruby apparently did because they swabbed some passengers.  They just neglected to inform the Caribbean authorities that they did.

 

My issues with the cruise lines are not so much that they did not stop.  But that they seem to be doing everything possible to obscure rather than inform.  Including but not limited to using flu like symptoms for any situation where they have not tested for COVID, even when suspected.  Off loading passengers without properly informing the authorities (San Juan, San Diego, Sydney), even though the symptoms are representative of COVID, and the passengers have later been proven to have COVID.  Telling passengers that all is well and continuing normal activities while there are sick passengers, with COVID like symptoms, just not yet tested.  Even now not fully testing the, according to the Miami paper, over a thousand sick crew off the coast of Florida and coming clean on how wide spread COVID has been on its ships.

 

That the cases where we have actually seen good data on how bad the spread has been has been in 3 cases where land authorities have gotten involved and required testing and tracking (Diamond - Japan, Ruby - Australia, Grand - US). 

 

Even in the later cases where the ships had to come all of the way back to the US with dead passengers (Zaandam), and hundreds of cases of flu like symptoms, the testing was minimal and as long as the passengers were not showing a fever they could disembark and fly home.  It was only with the Coral that the more stringent requirements went into effect.

 

No it is not the fact that they did not stop earlier,it is the appearance of trying to obscure the details about the realimpact on board ship.  Doing what they could for PR and not in the real best interest of their passengers.  

[livingonthebeach]

6 minutes ago, npcl said:

No it is not the fact that they did not stop earlier,it is the appearance of trying to obscure the details about the realimpact on board ship.  Doing what they could for PR and not in the real best interest of their passengers.  

 

The cruise industry has always been notorious for its lack of transparency.  Maybe after this investigation, corporate social responsibility will prevail.  Hopefully, the best interest of their passengers will take a different priority once this pandemic is over.

[yorky]

47 minutes ago, npcl said:

Last time I flew the airport was not on the plane.

 

 

So given we have clarified that point and I stated the airport, is that a hazard given you can’t actually fly before firstly entering an airport building ?

Edited May 2, 2020 by yorky

[npcl]

2 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Looks like the doctor didn't want to be a whistleblower.  We all know what happens to whistleblowers.  It's a sad situation all around.  Not sure playing the blame game is productive.  The Chinese people as well as all of us around the world are victims, the Chinese Communist Party definitely has a lot of explaining to do!  I fear we will never know the truth.  

A whistle blower is someone that comes forward by their own decision.

 

Telling the truth while giving testimony is a hearing in a criminal investigation is not being a whistle blower.

[npcl]

36 minutes ago, yorky said:

So given we have clarified that point and I stated the airport, is that a hazard given you can’t actually fly before firstly entering an airport building ?

And my comments were specific to the issues on board the plane.

 

 

One can actually avoid the dangers in the airport with social distancing in place.

[livingonthebeach]

6 minutes ago, npcl said:

A whistle blower is someone that comes forward by their own decision.

 

Telling the truth while giving testimony is a hearing in a criminal investigation is not being a whistle blower.

 

I was referring when the doctor was on the ship and not reporting the cases to the ports not the testimony.