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chipmaster

Think the CEOs are toast for Carnival/HAL and others?

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Posted (edited)

So congress is starting  hearings ( yeah I know those kind of witch hunts ) but you can be sure the press from it won't be flattering and will surely make the evening news as they like that kind of "Dirty Laundry"

 

Let's not forget the daily evening news on Princess trapped in Japan.  By early February every Cruise line saw the risk and outcome if ANYONE caught SARS-CoV-2 and came down with COV19, yet they allowed sailings to continue thru early March.

 

Then the unreported illness and transportation of very sick patient that later died without any notification to port authorities, treating doctors or any information to passengers and NO precautions once known that illness was on the ship is simply more then irresponsible, it is unlawful! 

 

Now you got the WSJ article as well as MSN: 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-ships-set-sail-knowing-the-deadly-risk-to-passengers-and-crew/ar-BB13tPcs

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cruise-ships-set-sail-knowing-the-deadly-risk-to-passengers-and-crew-11588346502

 

Pretty egregious timelines and behavior in the WSJ.    Can't wait to see how the CEOs appear but think they will need to take the fall.   Looks like a repeat of 737Max tone death reality distortion view from Boeing CEO. 

 

But my opinions CEOs who put business above the welfare of the customers in good times can escape sometimes being disingenuous, but like boeing CEO Muilenburg a Zebra  can't hide nor change it's stripes with the tide pulls back and with this current situation everyone's is exposed. 

 

Sadly the cruise industry is going to be on ice for a while, likely with big leadership changes, a must to come back and regain the trust of the public.   I for one would probably cruise again, but even more cynical of the experience. 

Edited by chipmaster

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If you ask me, the cruise lines and their management are exhibiting a lot of unwarranted (and unexplainable) hubris right now. From denying any role in the issues that are outlined above (leading to a number of deaths of passengers and crew and many more that experienced life-threatening illness) to defying CDC's guidances on getting staff/crew home to coming up with borderline shyster approaches to get cruisers to shell out money right now for future cruises...

 

Interestingly, a good number of CEOs of businesses particulary impacted by the pandemic and also dependent, to a greater or lesser extent on public opinion for their future existence, have publicly said that they are foregoing some or all of their 2020 salaries, either to help employees stay afloat or donating them to relief efforts.

 

From the cruise line CEOs I have heard crickets...   Would it not be a good move for the CEOs to publicly donate or finance the return home of their "valued" crew and staff?

 

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Both of you make excellent points. Thanks for taking the time and energy.

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1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

If you ask me, the cruise lines and their management are exhibiting a lot of unwarranted (and unexplainable) hubris right now. From denying any role in the issues that are outlined above (leading to a number of deaths of passengers and crew and many more that experienced life-threatening illness) to defying CDC's guidances on getting staff/crew home to coming up with borderline shyster approaches to get cruisers to shell out money right now for future cruises...

 

Interestingly, a good number of CEOs of businesses particulary impacted by the pandemic and also dependent, to a greater or lesser extent on public opinion for their future existence, have publicly said that they are foregoing some or all of their 2020 salaries, either to help employees stay afloat or donating them to relief efforts.

 

From the cruise line CEOs I have heard crickets...   Would it not be a good move for the CEOs to publicly donate or finance the return home of their "valued" crew and staff?

 

Well put.  Right now there is a sort of “bunker mentality” being exhibited - their senior managements are really keeping their heads down.  Their boards of directors must be getting some pressure from institutional investors — who are not as satisfied to focus on OBC as CC posters are.  The upcoming shareholders’ meetings will be lively.

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The cruise line CEO's are probably busy figuring out how they can give themselves a raise for having to perform under such duress.

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1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

If you ask me, the cruise lines and their management are exhibiting a lot of unwarranted (and unexplainable) hubris right now. From denying any role in the issues that are outlined above (leading to a number of deaths of passengers and crew and many more that experienced life-threatening illness) to defying CDC's guidances on getting staff/crew home to coming up with borderline shyster approaches to get cruisers to shell out money right now for future cruises...

 

Interestingly, a good number of CEOs of businesses particulary impacted by the pandemic and also dependent, to a greater or lesser extent on public opinion for their future existence, have publicly said that they are foregoing some or all of their 2020 salaries, either to help employees stay afloat or donating them to relief efforts.

 

From the cruise line CEOs I have heard crickets...   Would it not be a good move for the CEOs to publicly donate or finance the return home of their "valued" crew and staff?

 

 

Both of the first posts raise great points.

 

Any company can experience accidents or incidents, with me judging them not so much on the incident, but how they respond. Some mega ship fleets continued well into March without addressing the issues at hand with respect to pax and crew safety. This exasperated the problems, but how have they responded?

 

Many cruise lines have determined their core crews and repatriated non-essential crew, at least where their country is accepting the return of citizens. Those ships are now secured alongside various ports and non-essential crews have been at home for 2 weeks to a month. These are the CEO's and management teams that responded well.

 

Why do we still have > 100 ships in US waters with almost 100,000 crew waiting to return home. Surely the CEO's should be out there moving mountains to get their "Most Valuable Resources" home. It is now May and all we hear is silence, but almost 100,000 crew remain on ships in/near US waters. Read that one cruise line considered it too expensive to disembark a US crew member in a US port, as they had to send them home without using public transport.

 

That would indicate the CEO's most valuable resource is the shareholder, not the crew. When cruising resumes, we will definitely remember which cruise lines looked after both the pax and the crew. Even if they change CEO's it will take some time to see any prolonged change for the better.

 

 

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1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

The upcoming shareholders’ meetings will be lively.

 

Carnival Corporation has already held theirs.

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1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Both of the first posts raise great points.

 

Any company can experience accidents or incidents, with me judging them not so much on the incident, but how they respond. Some mega ship fleets continued well into March without addressing the issues at hand with respect to pax and crew safety. This exasperated the problems, but how have they responded?

 

Many cruise lines have determined their core crews and repatriated non-essential crew, at least where their country is accepting the return of citizens. Those ships are now secured alongside various ports and non-essential crews have been at home for 2 weeks to a month. These are the CEO's and management teams that responded well.

 

Why do we still have > 100 ships in US waters with almost 100,000 crew waiting to return home. Surely the CEO's should be out there moving mountains to get their "Most Valuable Resources" home. It is now May and all we hear is silence, but almost 100,000 crew remain on ships in/near US waters. Read that one cruise line considered it too expensive to disembark a US crew member in a US port, as they had to send them home without using public transport.

 

That would indicate the CEO's most valuable resource is the shareholder, not the crew. When cruising resumes, we will definitely remember which cruise lines looked after both the pax and the crew. Even if they change CEO's it will take some time to see any prolonged change for the better.

 

 


 

this made the evening news mostly focused on US citizens trapped. I feel terrible for all the crew, but the failure of their employer after 30+ days says it all about what their capabilities and priorities are. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Carnival Corporation has already held theirs.

And has released little about the meeting.  

 

The fact that that they had to pay 11.5 % on their recent senior secured debt issuance - when unsecured corporate debt has been going for 4% to 6% indicates their position. Sure, their convertible debt carried a much lower coupon - but that is because the equity they are giving away if they do survive - meaning that existing shareholders will have a long wait (if ever)  to regain earlier prices.

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Some CEO’s can afford to retire ...
 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/04/articles/executives/ncls-ceo-frank-del-rio-collected-over-17800000-in-2019-1052-times-more-than-wages-of-median-ncl-crew-member/

 

$18000000 for a bonus.?

 

Looking at the other lead articles on Cruise Law News seem to indicate a ‘downer’ on NCL ...some interesting points raised,

.

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9 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Some CEO’s can afford to retire ...
 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/04/articles/executives/ncls-ceo-frank-del-rio-collected-over-17800000-in-2019-1052-times-more-than-wages-of-median-ncl-crew-member/

 

$18000000 for a bonus.?

 

Looking at the other lead articles on Cruise Law News seem to indicate a ‘downer’ on NCL ...some interesting points raised,

.

 

No matter how rich they want more, remember they were ambitious and wanting and have a very expensive lifestlye to pay for, always need more, except rare birds like Buffett

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On 5/2/2020 at 12:52 PM, chipmaster said:

....Then the unreported illness and transportation of very sick patient that later died without any notification to port authorities, treating doctors or any information to passengers and NO precautions once known that illness was on the ship is simply more then irresponsible, it is unlawful! ...

 

Sadly the cruise industry is going to be on ice for a while, likely with big leadership changes, a must to come back and regain the trust of the public.   I for one would probably cruise again, but even more cynical of the experience. 

If I thought that a company CEO was irresponsible, callous, deceptive, or outright mean I'd choose not to patronize that company.  Why give them my business only to feel cynical about doing so.  But that's just me.

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18 minutes ago, BlueRiband said:

If I thought that a company CEO was irresponsible, callous, deceptive, or outright mean I'd choose not to patronize that company.  Why give them my business only to feel cynical about doing so.  But that's just me.

Quite recently someone brought up that there were some great deals on Oceania. And they were/are.  I bit. But then over a very few days I thought about just what you wrote. And I canceled. Thanks.

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It's always the big guy's fault. Make too much money? Bad. Make too little money? Bad. Every choice the customers make? Not their fault? Can go on all day. Of course, they hold the ultimate responsibility. At some point, people should hold SOME

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20 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

It's always the big guy's fault. Make too much money? Bad. Make too little money? Bad. Every choice the customers make? Not their fault? Can go on all day. Of course, they hold the ultimate responsibility. At some point, people should hold SOME

“People” should almost always hold at least some responsibility for whatever happens to them - even if the immediate harm was someone else’s fault.  But this thread is about whether cruise lines’ senior management should be held responsible for their actions/failures to act in handling the rapidly spreading infection.   I am not suggesting criminal penalties - but it is hard to think that they earned their base pay (and certainly not their “performance compensation”)

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15 hours ago, clo said:

Quite recently someone brought up that there were some great deals on Oceania. And they were/are.  I bit. But then over a very few days I thought about just what you wrote. And I canceled. Thanks.

It is generally a good idea to deny patronage to people who may not deserve it - but are you willing to never cruise again if all lines retain their senior management?

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3 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

“People” should almost always hold at least some responsibility for whatever happens to them - even if the immediate harm was someone else’s fault.  But this thread is about whether cruise lines’ senior management should be held responsible for their actions/failures to act in handling the rapidly spreading infection.   I am not suggesting criminal penalties - but it is hard to think that they earned their base pay (and certainly not their “performance compensation”)

 

It's very easy to point the blame when not in the position. Even easier with hindsight vision. Should they have done something different? Maybe. Looking at it at both sides, I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork just yet. No one was really ready for this. No one knew what to expect. They clearly ended up taking extreme measures, severely damaging their financials.

 

If you want to use this to change how it's handled in the future, be careful what you ask for. Any time a "new" strain of an infection hits, do we immediately freak out? Where is the cutoff?

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6 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is generally a good idea to deny patronage to people who may not deserve it - but are you willing to never cruise again if all lines retain their senior management?

Maybe. Seriously maybe. And there are other cruise lines, based in other countries, which perhaps act more ethically.

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It's possible the cruise lines have a get out of jail free card. When you board a cruise ship, you are asked to fill in a questionair. If you have answered the question whether you have been ill in the last 2 weeks you answer falsely, not their fault. If on the cruise at your first port of call you pick up a bug, again not their fault. Proving where any illness is contracted within a day is almost impossible.

 

I do, however, agree that the cruise industry did not conduct themselves very well, and maybe should have closed down earlier.

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It would not surprise me that once this is all over some cruise lines corporate headquarters will be raided by the police and relevant authorities, some of these CEOs may find themselves facing criminal proceedings.

I also think that class action law suits will be the order of the day, interesting times.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

this thread is about whether cruise lines’ senior management should be held responsible for their actions/failures to act in handling the rapidly spreading infection.   

 

My opinion:  this remains to be seen.  Surely, the "evidence" uncovered so far is not complimentary to the Defendants.  

 

Quote
4 hours ago, Joebucks said:

It's very easy to point the blame when not in the position. Even easier with hindsight vision. Should they have done something different? Maybe. Looking at it at both sides, I'm not ready to grab my pitchfork just yet. No one was really ready for this. No one knew what to expect.

 

 

All of us, whether private citizens or a government or a business, were caught "with our pants down" with this pandemic.  There's no playbook to follow.  We're making up the "rules of this game" as we go along.  Pointing a finger at others may make us feel better, but I remind one that when doing so, there are 3 fingers pointing back.

 

The "Fat Lady" has yet to sing.  I'll predict it will be a very, very long time until we hear her.  

Edited by rkacruiser

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Back on topic:  are the cruise lines’s CEO’s “toast”.   We seem to have strayed into the realm of “everyone makes mistakes”.  Carnival’s management seem to have made a serious gamble - taking on very expensive (11.5%) debt , issuing a huge chunk of common stock as well as new convertible debt which, combined, virtually guarantees that existing stockholders are unlikely to ever recover.  It has left them in control — and it may work for them.  If it doesn’t, the Monday morning quarterbacks will have a field day.

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2 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Back on topic:  are the cruise lines’s CEO’s “toast”.   We seem to have strayed into the realm of “everyone makes mistakes”.  Carnival’s management seem to have made a serious gamble - taking on very expensive (11.5%) debt , issuing a huge chunk of common stock as well as new convertible debt which, combined, virtually guarantees that existing stockholders are unlikely to ever recover.  It has left them in control — and it may work for them.  If it doesn’t, the Monday morning quarterbacks will have a field day.

And now they've 'declared' that they're restarting August 1. Arrogant?

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6 minutes ago, clo said:

And now they've 'declared' that they're restarting August 1. Arrogant?

I don’t know about “arrogant”, but I do think they are winging it - hoping they can come up with some credible (at least seemingly so) protocols to address health concerns. I think it really is a gamble they are making — it might work out for them, it might not, but either way: if  it doesn’t - or if they didn’t try to restart - they would likely have been “toast”.  I do not plan to participate in their gamble.

 

You cannot keep a bunch of ships sitting idle - with a lot of staff being paid and bringing in no revenue, while your (recently massively increased) debt service burden meter keeps clicking away without “running aground”.

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Where does Corporate Responsibility end.?

 

NCL strike again .. Let’s go party 😀

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/05/articles/disease/norwegian-epic-the-latest-ncl-cruise-ship-to-ignore-the-cdcs-social-distancing-rule/

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