Masks probably required

[mpaff]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:43 PM, Merion_Mom said:

 

If you are going to call someone out for their behavior, at least be accurate.

 

She is not a governor.  She's a mayor.

Didnt realize I had a proofreader in here.  MY mistake, Lori is a mayor in a terrible city and will never sit in the governor's seat. 

[Ocean Boy]

28 minutes ago, CruisingNole said:

 

It's called being selfish and entitled. Not willing to cause oneself a little inconvenience for the sake of protecting other human life.

 

It's a trend that's quite common nowadays. 

People who don't want to wear a mask are willing to give up their cruise. How is that selfish? And don't even start to lecture me about inconvenience and protecting other human life. My family can supply a long list of dinners, holidays, family events, etc., that I have missed to take care of human lives other than theirs. Not to mention that every day I expose myself, in both a hospital and office, to any number of pathogens that I could easily bring home to my family. It is just all in a days work.

 

Yeah, I know, it is what I signed up for and I happily do it. However, selfish and entitled, I don't think so. Yup, you hit a raw nerve.

[HBE4]

1 hour ago, alfaeric said:

Ok then have her explain why a mask is a bad thing.  Relative to the filtering that it does.

 

Ignoring the false sense of security- since they are supposed to be in addition to keeping apart.  And noting that for the vast majority of people, you would only wear them every once in a while when you go out shopping.

 

The scientist in me has a tough time when a filter is counter productive tool to reducing the spread of a virus.  It's certainly better than doing nothing.

 

Some people have a "contrarian" personality. They like to go against the grain. When everyone zigs, they will zag.  While Infectious disease experts across the globe recommend that wearing a mask offers some limited protection and doesn't hurt, there will be that those focus on the fact that it doesn't guarantee 100% protection and anything less than a Hazmat suit is a waste of time. I am of the mindset that every little bit helps.

 

Having said that, I won't cruise if a mask is a requirement.

 

56 minutes ago, bouhunter said:

Good points.  Fauci is also on tape in late January saying there was nothing to worry about and Americans didn't have to change anything they were doing...….

 

True. But the situation is constantly evolving so what was true yesterday might not be true tomorrow.  There are some reports that children are dying due to "Covid-19 related" illness, similar to toxic shock syndrome.  So far, only 3 and much more data will need to be collected & studied so it's too soon to hit the panic button.  But soon, it'll be a lie, er, I mean myth that Covid affects only elderly people with underlying conditions. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by HBE4

[hazence]

2 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

 

Some people have a "contrarian" personality. They like to go against the grain. When everyone zigs, they will zag.  While Infectious disease experts across the globe recommend that wearing a mask offers some limited protection and doesn't hurt, there will be that those focus on the fact that it doesn't guarantee 100% protection and anything less than a Hazmat suit is a waste of time. I am of the mindset that every little bit helps.

 

Having said that, I won't cruise if a mask is a requirement.

 

 

True. But the situation is constantly evolving so what was true yesterday might not be true tomorrow.  There are some reports that children are dying due to "Covid-19 related" illness, similar to toxic shock syndrome.  So far, only 3 and much more data will need to be collected & studied so it's too soon to hit the panic button.  But soon, it'll be a lie, er, I mean myth that Covid affects only elderly people with underlying conditions. 

 

 

So my daughters professional opinion is based on her being a “contrarian? “   

[HBE4]

2 minutes ago, hazence said:

So my daughters professional opinion is based on her being a “contrarian? “   

 

No, sorry.

 

I can see why you thought I was singling out your daughter as the person I quoted was responding to your post re: your daughter.

 

I meant my statement to be more generic about some people in general. It was not directed any any one person, certainly not your daughter nor Oceanboy or any other CC member.

 

No disrespect intended. I should have posted my opinion without quoting anyone.

[L454S]

1 hour ago, CruisingNole said:

 

It's called being selfish and entitled. Not willing to cause oneself a little inconvenience for the sake of protecting other human life.

 

It's a trend that's quite common nowadays. 

 

You are selfish and entitled by attempting to force your fears and misgivings on me. You would be happier staying off a cruise ship till you feel safer.

[Mapleleafforever]

1 minute ago, L454S said:

 

You are selfish and entitled by attempting to force your fears and misgivings on me. You would be happier staying off a cruise ship till you feel safer.

We all know that this isn't how it's going to work moving forward. Royal did patent their own masks after all.....

 

Seaface.....get used to it if you want to be cruising in the near future. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

49 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

 

Some people have a "contrarian" personality. They like to go against the grain. When everyone zigs, they will zag.  While Infectious disease experts across the globe recommend that wearing a mask offers some limited protection and doesn't hurt, there will be that those focus on the fact that it doesn't guarantee 100% protection and anything less than a Hazmat suit is a waste of time. I am of the mindset that every little bit helps.

 

Having said that, I won't cruise if a mask is a requirement.

 

 

True. But the situation is constantly evolving so what was true yesterday might not be true tomorrow.  There are some reports that children are dying due to "Covid-19 related" illness, similar to toxic shock syndrome.  So far, only 3 and much more data will need to be collected & studied so it's too soon to hit the panic button.  But soon, it'll be a lie, er, I mean myth that Covid affects only elderly people with underlying conditions. 

 

 

 

Very well put. 
 

Of course, COVID-19 has existed for only a matter of months. Genuine scientists and researchers take decades - yes, decades - to nail down details about diseases, so expecting perfection now is ludicrous. (At the beginning, the best info they had was that temperature was the signature symptom .... just a few months later, we know of many cases where the patient had no fever at any point).

With that said, rational people take scientific research - not Rupert Murdoch talking points or Breitbart headlines - to guide their decisions. The problem is, this era abounds with irrational people. We see them nightly on TV seething and snarling at nurses or statehouse police officers. They're the ones without masks, but loaded up with ammo and flags.
 

So on the OP's topic: Those are the very folks who threaten to make the first rounds of "guinea pig" cruises a true hell. I've seen too many bleary red-eyed, angry drunks at ship lounges, poolside or occasionally even leaving the MDR. Now they're going to come aboard with a "cause" and an attitude ... and that's going to be a problem for everyone else on the ship.  Regardless of whether the cruise line requires masks, recommends masks, requests masks, or says nothing about masks, that's going to threaten a conflict.
 

Those narrow corridors on cabin decks, the elevators or stairways, the area in front of the MDR, the shops on sale nights, most of the ship on cruise nights - those places get crowded fast. Even if the ship is at half capacity, they'll be crowded. Now throw in Loudy McLoudmouth with a few Bud-swilling, Fox-watching "Constitutional scholar" friends all spoiling for trouble ... well, that doesn't sound like a vacation.

(btw, I hate the mask as much as anyone here. But I wear the damned thing because I was raised to have consideration for others, and because being American actually is not about arrogance or self-centeredness)

[HBE4]

Every time I see Seaface, I can't help but think of the movie Scarface. I haven't seen the movie in 30+ years and can barely remember it except for the infamous line "Say hello to my little friend". 

 

And now I want to work that line into every conversation I'll have the rest of the day.

[TheMastodon]

On 5/6/2020 at 12:46 PM, Ourusualbeach said:

Just announced that masks will be required for crew and probably by guests initially and maybe until there is a vaccine. 

 

Ships shouldn't be sailing if masks are required.  

 

 

[20165]

1 minute ago, TheMastodon said:

 

Ships shouldn't be sailing if masks are required.  

 

 

i would agree and be very surprised if they actually went down the mask route.  From what i have read here, most of us hard core cruisers wouldnt cruise if masks were required so that doesnt bode well for everyone else that is on the fence about cruising.  I know they are scrambling, but they are going to have to figure something else out.

 

[TheMastodon]

1 minute ago, 20165 said:

i would agree and be very surprised if they actually went down the mask route.  From what i have read here, most of us hard core cruisers wouldnt cruise if masks were required so that doesnt bode well for everyone else that is on the fence about cruising.  I know they are scrambling, but they are going to have to figure something else out.

 

 

I just don't get it.  This thing loves jails, nursing homes, and other confined spaces.  It's going to show up on a ship and the fall out is going to be worse this time around for cruise lines.  You think the media beat them up during the beginning of the outbreak, just wait until the PR disaster unfolds this time around!  What do you do?  Quarantine the entire ship?  Test everyone once a positive test occurs?  I want the country to reopen because this thing doesn't affect 99.xxx% of us ( I welcome you to prove me otherwise) but does that mean we should cruise and potentially risk spreading it all over again?  

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, hazence said:

So my daughters professional opinion is based on her being a “contrarian? “   

You know, it's just a professional opinion.  It could be wrong.  And neither would be lying to you- just telling you incomplete information.  That's how developing science works.  

 

As an engineer, I state wrong opinions all the time, just like I challenge wrong opinions all the time.  Doctors are no different.  It takes a lot of time and data to turn theories into rules.

[cruiselvr04]

I think the answer is easy about cruising and masks.  If you don’t want to wear one or think they are dumb don’t go when it starts up again.  If you’re okay with going the extra mile to have a vacation go and comply with what the new rules might be.  

 

We don’t really know what those rules will be.  But if they include masks we have discussed it and and will go with masks.  As my husband said “.We need to get back to the sea or we’re going to need therapy”.  LOL

 

We double mask when out in public.  Surgery mask underneath that I’ve been able to order from Amazon with a homemade washable mask with filter on top.  We breath just fine with them for short periods of an hour or two. This gives us some degree of protection as well as protecting others but of course is not N95.  

 

I wear a surgical mask for 13 hours a day at work.  ( This is pointless really as they are 3 ply but make people “feel” better and may protect someone if we sneeze, cough or spray with talking. ) There is a bit of carbon dioxide retention but healthy people should tolerate it fine.  Most of us do get a bit more tired and occasional get a headache.  Remember we are wearing them continuously unless eating or drinking.

 

 I’m guessing on a ship you’d mostly have them up while walking thru halls,  getting food using elevators, maybe sitting in a show.  On an open deck sitting in a chair it would serve no purpose.  And you can’t have them up while eating.  I’m thinking we’d spend more time in our cabin, on our balcony at least in the afternoon which would be a mask free area. We might not get off the ship much if we go.  We’d pick excursions carefully, probably more beaches then anything.  Of course getting off and on the ship you’d need your mask on.  And we’d carry lots of sanitizer.  

 

I know for some of you,  this wouldn’t sound like fun.  But for us who need a break, a vacation from work and chance to unwind it still sounds pretty nice.  We’re willing to try it soon after cruising starts up again.  I’ll be pretty bummed if we have a second cruise canceled in October.  I’m coming up with a back up land trip in the US but sure would rather be on a ship. For us nothing is more relaxing then cruising.And from the sound of this thread the ship should be pretty empty which sounds good too.  

 

Once cruising resumes it’s about personal choice which is the way it should be.  You decide the risk you’re willing to take. For now everytime you leave your house there’s some risk involved.  It only takes one person to infect you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by cruiselvr04

[Mapleleafforever]

24 minutes ago, 20165 said:

i would agree and be very surprised if they actually went down the mask route.  From what i have read here, most of us hard core cruisers wouldnt cruise if masks were required so that doesnt bode well for everyone else that is on the fence about cruising.  I know they are scrambling, but they are going to have to figure something else out.

 

Cruiselines desperately need revenue soon so they will be sailing but what they don't need is more outbreaks and/or lawsuits regarding outbreaks. Anyone who wants to cruise in the near future will be doing so while wearing a mask most the time. They have already figured something out and that something is "Seaface". 

 

[Mapleleafforever]

42 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Very well put. 
 

Of course, COVID-19 has existed for only a matter of months. Genuine scientists and researchers take decades - yes, decades - to nail down details about diseases, so expecting perfection now is ludicrous. (At the beginning, the best info they had was that temperature was the signature symptom .... just a few months later, we know of many cases where the patient had no fever at any point).

With that said, rational people take scientific research - not Rupert Murdoch talking points or Breitbart headlines - to guide their decisions. The problem is, this era abounds with irrational people. We see them nightly on TV seething and snarling at nurses or statehouse police officers. They're the ones without masks, but loaded up with ammo and flags.
 

So on the OP's topic: Those are the very folks who threaten to make the first rounds of "guinea pig" cruises a true hell. I've seen too many bleary red-eyed, angry drunks at ship lounges, poolside or occasionally even leaving the MDR. Now they're going to come aboard with a "cause" and an attitude ... and that's going to be a problem for everyone else on the ship.  Regardless of whether the cruise line requires masks, recommends masks, requests masks, or says nothing about masks, that's going to threaten a conflict.
 

Those narrow corridors on cabin decks, the elevators or stairways, the area in front of the MDR, the shops on sale nights, most of the ship on cruise nights - those places get crowded fast. Even if the ship is at half capacity, they'll be crowded. Now throw in Loudy McLoudmouth with a few Bud-swilling, Fox-watching "Constitutional scholar" friends all spoiling for trouble ... well, that doesn't sound like a vacation.

(btw, I hate the mask as much as anyone here. But I wear the damned thing because I was raised to have consideration for others, and because being American actually is not about arrogance or self-centeredness)

 

I wouldn't worry about these people. With all that's at stake right now for the cruiselines I'm guessing that passengers will be on a very short leash with major consequences regarding the use of Seaface. 

[TheMastodon]

8 minutes ago, cruiselvr04 said:

I think the answer is easy about cruising and masks.  If you don’t want to wear one or think they are dumb don’t go when it starts up again.  If you’re okay with going the extra mile to have a vacation go and comply with what the new rules might be.  

 

We don’t really know what those rules will be.  But if they include masks we have discussed it and and will go with masks.  As my husband said “.We need to get back to the sea or we’re going to need therapy”.  LOL

 

We double mask when out in public.  Surgery mask underneath that I’ve been able to order from Amazon with a homemade washable mask with filter on top.  We breath just fine with them for short periods of an hour or two. This gives us some degree of protection as well as protecting others but of course is not N95.  

 

I wear a surgical mask for 13 hours a day at work.  ( This is pointless really as they are 3 ply but make people “feel” better and may protect someone if we sneeze, cough or spray with talking. ) There is a bit of carbon dioxide retention but healthy people should tolerate it fine.  Most of us do get a bit more tired and occasional get a headache.  Remember we are wearing them continuously unless eating or drinking.

 

 I’m guessing on a ship you’d mostly have them up while walking thru halls,  getting food using elevators, maybe sitting in a show.  On an open deck sitting in a chair it would serve no purpose.  And you can’t have them up while eating.  I’m thinking we’d spend more time in our cabin, on our balcony at least in the afternoon which would be a mask free area. We might not get off the ship much if we go.  We’d pick excursions carefully, probably more beaches then anything.  Of course getting off and on the ship you’d need your mask on.  And we’d carry lots of sanitizer.  

 

I know for some of you,  this wouldn’t sound like fun.  But for us who need a break, a vacation from work and chance to unwind it still sounds pretty nice.  We’re willing to try it soon after cruising starts up again.  I’ll be pretty bummed if we have a second cruise canceled in October.  I’m coming up with a back up land trip in the US but sure would rather be on a ship. For us nothing is more relaxing then cruising.And from the sound of this thread the ship should be pretty empty which sounds good too.  

 

Once cruising resumes it’s about personal choice which is the way it should be.  You decide the risk you’re willing to take. For now everytime you leave your house there’s some risk involved.  It only takes one person to infect you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They might make everyone wear masks, but they can't regulate people washing hands, not picking noses, and other poor hygiene habits that aids in spreading this virus.  But hey, I'm sure the CDC will give cruise lines the thumbs up as long as everyone wears masks.  

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 hour ago, Mapleleafforever said:

We all know that this isn't how it's going to work moving forward. Royal did patent their own masks after all.....

 

Seaface.....get used to it if you want to be cruising in the near future. 

I just want Royal to give us the option for full refund if masks are going to be required. And before final payment. They must have some idea going forward. 

[lenquixote66]

59 minutes ago, TheMastodon said:

 

They might make everyone wear masks, but they can't regulate people washing hands, not picking noses, and other poor hygiene habits that aids in spreading this virus.  But hey, I'm sure the CDC will give cruise lines the thumbs up as long as everyone wears masks.  

You cannot wear a mask in a restaurant .It is not likely that people will wear a mask in the fitness center,pool or hot tub. They will not wear a mask in their cabin and if they get a knock on the door will likely not be wearing a mask when they open the door.It will be very difficult to have people wear masks.

[xpcdoojk]

On 5/11/2020 at 12:32 PM, Tree_skier said:

Ive gone to Walmart about every second day and some type of hardware store on the other days.  It's either that or go mental reading things on the internet.  Thankfully we are opening up here next week.  Some provincial parks open Thursday and the rest of the provinces non-essential businesses, with restriction, opens Monday.  Provincial campsites will open beginning of June assuming everything goes according to plan. I've got a chiropractor appointment booked for Tuesday after next in the morning and  I'm looking forward going to restaurant that evening.  I don't think my wife and I have planned a restaurant reservation with such anticipation since our 25th anniversary, which we celebrated in Rome. It's going to be great to walk around with looking like I have scoliosis.    

 

My wife and I both work for what are considered by our state “essential businesses”.  So, we haven’t been sitting at home all day and all night.  I need to fill my new Jeep Gladiator as I type.  So, now we work our regular day, but when the restaurants were closed, I would come home and cook for the next two hours making dinner for us and leftovers for lunch the next day.  After a couple of glasses of wine, I am falling asleep on the sofa watching bad TV by 9PM.  Then the alarm goes off at 5:25AM in the morning, and we repeat.  Today, I had my annual doctor visit and got one vein blown out by the lab tech, and so both of my arms have coban wrap on them.  So, going home at lunch time to let the dog out in the rain, I thought I would stop at Wendys and get one of those short supply hamburgers.  Pulled off the freeway and realized there was a traffic jam because cars were trying to get into their lot and it was overfilled with people with the same idea.  Went by turned around got back on the freeway and drove on home.  Let the dog out and made a p-nut butter sandwich.  

 

I don’t really have a problem with people who are sheltering in place (it is what it is), I do have a problem with people with guaranteed pay checks that I contribute to the payment of telling me and everyone else that we have to not work.  That we have to crash the economic system because then we can make the government take over with universal income and all other sorts of stupid economic plans to save people that we are not actually saving in the long run.  I am an economist by education and background.

 

My irritation at government officials is micro-sized compared to the irritation that rich spoiled news anchors tell me and everyone else that we must stay home, when they don’t.  Chris Cuomo comes to mind.  He has the disease and he doesn’t even follow the orders, and I must because I am not him.  That crap doesn’t work very well with me.

 

Sorry for the rant, back to regularly scheduled programming.

 

jc

[Mapleleafforever]

29 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I just want Royal to give us the option for full refund if masks are going to be required. And before final payment. They must have some idea going forward. 

It's only fair really. I mean, there were no precautions like this when cruises were booked right?

[Mapleleafforever]

7 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

 

My wife and I both work for what are considered by our state “essential businesses”.  So, we haven’t been sitting at home all day and all night.  I need to fill my new Jeep Gladiator as I type.  So, now we work our regular day, but when the restaurants were closed, I would come home and cook for the next two hours making dinner for us and leftovers for lunch the next day.  After a couple of glasses of wine, I am falling asleep on the sofa watching bad TV by 9PM.  Then the alarm goes off at 5:25AM in the morning, and we repeat.  Today, I had my annual doctor visit and got one vein blown out by the lab tech, and so both of my arms have coban wrap on them.  So, going home at lunch time to let the dog out in the rain, I thought I would stop at Wendys and get one of those short supply hamburgers.  Pulled off the freeway and realized there was a traffic jam because cars were trying to get into their lot and it was overfilled with people with the same idea.  Went by turned around got back on the freeway and drove on home.  Let the dog out and made a p-nut butter sandwich.  

 

I don’t really have a problem with people who are sheltering in place (it is what it is), I do have a problem with people with guaranteed pay checks that I contribute to the payment of telling me and everyone else that we have to not work.  That we have to crash the economic system because then we can make the government take over with universal income and all other sorts of stupid economic plans to save people that we are not actually saving in the long run.  I am an economist by education and background.

 

My irritation at government officials is micro-sized compared to the irritation that rich spoiled news anchors tell me and everyone else that we must stay home, when they don’t.  Chris Cuomo comes to mind.  He has the disease and he doesn’t even follow the orders, and I must because I am not him.  That crap doesn’t work very well with me.

 

Sorry for the rant, back to regularly scheduled programming.

 

jc

I'm also working as I'm "essential" and have limited to no contact with the public and the last 2 weeks I have noticed a noticeable increase in vehicles on the road. In Ontario we have been told to not go to our summer homes if we have them and to not have visitors to our homes. Our Provincial leader not only went to his cottage Easter weekend to check on it but also this past Mother's Day had 2 of his daughters over who do not live with him. This whole do as I say and not how I do is getting real old. 

 

And isn't basic income coming whether we like it or not as automation takes over in the near future? Andrew Yang had some great ideas regarding this in my opinion. 

 

 

[xpcdoojk]

So, let me tell you a true story about mask sensitivity.

 

Sunday was mother’ s Day.  My 93-1/2 year old MIL lives in a senior apartment (that so far has had zero COVID19).  So, I mowed the lawn and washed the dog to go to visit.  My DW, a registered nurse, and as near a saint as I have ever met, was wearing heels a smart looking spring outfit and carrying a large sack of gifts for her mother and a vase of flowers.  The complex has about 140 people living there and the only way we could visit was on the outdoor patio and spaced out one family at a time at a pre-arranged time.  The complex is located next to an Aldi on one side and a neighborhood that was built about 60 years ago on the other side.  I am busy putting the leash (actually gentle lead) on the dog, Lord Wellington a wire fox terrier, and she is walking on the sidewalk the runs on the property behind the building.  A man from the neighborhood was taking the shortcut behind the building and not on the public sidewalks approaching my wife.  At about 12 feet from her he stopped.  My DW was wearing a yellow mask that matched her yellow sweater top.  She keeps walking without thinking about it.  He then shouted at her, calling her rude.  I guess he expected her to get off the sidewalk for him to pass so that they would not get close.  She responded with a what did you say?  He wasn’t wearing a mask.  He said you heard me and you know what you are, as he finally went around her on the sidewalk.  She then said, well it takes one to know one.  

 

Needless to say she was mad the rest of the evening.  

 

The world has gone nuts.  Thanks TV news!

 

jc

[robntawn]

2 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

 

Very well put. 
 

Of course, COVID-19 has existed for only a matter of months. Genuine scientists and researchers take decades - yes, decades - to nail down details about diseases, so expecting perfection now is ludicrous. (At the beginning, the best info they had was that temperature was the signature symptom .... just a few months later, we know of many cases where the patient had no fever at any point).

With that said, rational people take scientific research - not Rupert Murdoch talking points or Breitbart headlines - to guide their decisions. The problem is, this era abounds with irrational people. We see them nightly on TV seething and snarling at nurses or statehouse police officers. They're the ones without masks, but loaded up with ammo and flags.
 

So on the OP's topic: Those are the very folks who threaten to make the first rounds of "guinea pig" cruises a true hell. I've seen too many bleary red-eyed, angry drunks at ship lounges, poolside or occasionally even leaving the MDR. Now they're going to come aboard with a "cause" and an attitude ... and that's going to be a problem for everyone else on the ship.  Regardless of whether the cruise line requires masks, recommends masks, requests masks, or says nothing about masks, that's going to threaten a conflict.
 

Those narrow corridors on cabin decks, the elevators or stairways, the area in front of the MDR, the shops on sale nights, most of the ship on cruise nights - those places get crowded fast. Even if the ship is at half capacity, they'll be crowded. Now throw in Loudy McLoudmouth with a few Bud-swilling, Fox-watching "Constitutional scholar" friends all spoiling for trouble ... well, that doesn't sound like a vacation.

(btw, I hate the mask as much as anyone here. But I wear the damned thing because I was raised to have consideration for others, and because being American actually is not about arrogance or self-centeredness)

Hear! Hear!

[xpcdoojk]

3 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

I'm also working as I'm "essential" and have limited to no contact with the public and the last 2 weeks I have noticed a noticeable increase in vehicles on the road. In Ontario we have been told to not go to our summer homes if we have them and to not have visitors to our homes. Our Provincial leader not only went to his cottage Easter weekend to check on it but also this past Mother's Day had 2 of his daughters over who do not live with him. This whole do as I say and not how I do is getting real old. 

 

And isn't basic income coming whether we like it or not as automation takes over in the near future? Andrew Yang had some great ideas regarding this in my opinion. 

 

 

 

As an economist, I can justify basic income with one giant thing that will guarantee it will work and thus guarantee it will never happen.

 

If we guarantee everyone a basic income of say $2000 a month, and we end all government subsidies and all of the government workers that manage all of those subsidies.  IE, we easily pay for it.  Back in the day when I was in gradual school we called it a negative income tax, and that combined with a straight income tax rate, if you work you are not discouraged from working because the extra income doesn’t affect your government income.  So, there would be no reason or way to justify not working because you might lose financial aid.  Anyway, because it doesn’t bankrupt the system it will never happen because that is the point of what they are doing.  

 

JC