Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[BRANDEE]

1 hour ago, Belmont Babe said:

I've trawled through the local media reports about the Ruby Princess cluster, and also referenced the publicly-available data from our Ministry of Health.

There are currently 24 cases of Covid-19 directly linked to the Ruby Princess. Six are passengers who came back from Sydney at the end of the cruise. 18 are directly linked to the stop in Napier. There are no cases linked to stops in Dunedin, Akaroa or Wellington.

Four people were tour guides, an interpreter and a bus driver doing shore tours for Princess.

Six are residents of the Gladys Mary Dementia Rest Home in Napier.

The remaining cases appear to be healthcare workers from the rest home, and members of their families.

It is highly unlikely that your husband caught it from the fish and chip shop. The first five cases of Covid 19 reported in Hawke's Bay were returning travelers from Qatar, Spain and Cambodia who arrived in NZ no earlier than the 16/03/20, or in other words, after the visit of the Ruby Princess. The sixth case in Hawke's Bay was the tour guide from the Princess shore tour.

 

 

Thanks for the info.  I was surprised that no other mention of covid except for Napier.  I'm glad that's all.  But you would have expected to see infection spread at all four ports.  Since you mentioned an interpreter, I will guess it was a tour of non English speaking passengers.  We were on a tour in Hawke's Bay to a winery and a bee farm where my husband got stung  (of course) and ended up with an allergic reaction for a week.  Sorry we missed the rest of our cruise to your beautiful country and also Fiji...very happy to be alive!!

[Cyrix400]

With reference to the tread started by  Chistodan  on this board ' ABC Four Corners Monday Night 8.30 pm'  - it will be interesting to see if some relevant summary/ assessment  of the evidence given to date in the  Special Inquiry will be included    in this show on 25th May. 

[Docker123]

I wonder if this will get a run during the enquiry.

 

A 2019 drill to practise dealing with a pandemic on a cruise ship coming into Sydney concluded that communication between government agencies was “robust and well-practised”, one year before the Ruby Princess debacle.

“Exercise EmergenSea Detour” was conducted over half a day on 1 May 2019 at the Department of Health in Canberra and involved the federal Department of Agriculture and Water Resources, NSW Health, Tasmanian Health and the Victorian Department of Health and Human services.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/may/30/drill-on-cruise-ship-pandemics-before-ruby-princess-debacle-found-authorities-communications-robust?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Othe

[Cyrix400]

Further to the interesting points made by Docker 123   in the post 53 above, re Guardian newspaper article this morning,  a few more illuminating quotes from the article for those too busy to see the original link:.

 

"A report of the drill, released to parliament, concluded that “strong relationships with cruise lines have been established by both Agriculture and jurisdictional health” and cruise ships are “highly compliant with ill traveller procedures”.

"Centre Alliance senator Rex Patrick, who obtained the report, said it was damning that multiple agencies had practised for a Ruby Princess scenario yet still created “an operational shambles” 10 months later" 

"“The belated release of this report serves to underline the magnitude of the Ruby Princess failure,” he told Guardian Australia."

"Patrick said the drill showed that the issues around the Ruby Princess, which are being examined in a NSW special commission of inquiry, had already been identified a year before the Covid-19 pandemic".

 

"Neither the NSW Port Authority nor Border Force were involved in the May 2019 drill".

 

To make sure that the Ruby Princess Special Commission of Inquiry covers this, feel free to make a short pro forma submission on the Inquiry site bringing these matters to their attention - I have done so this morning.

Inquiry submission link:    https://www.rubyprincessinquiry.nsw.gov.au/submissions/

[Cyrix400]

New Hearing Dates - Special Inquiry - for those interested ( and keen to find out what else may come up).

I am on the Inquiry mailing list and have just received the info below.  The report is due   by 14 August -the Commissioner mentioned previously that he might be even able to deliver it earlier: 

Hearing schedule

The Special Commission will hold further public hearings on the following dates:

Week commencing 9 June 2020	Dates: 9 - 10 June 2020 Time: 9:30 am (AEST)
Week commencing 15 June 2020	Dates: 15 – 18 June 2020 Time: 9:30 am (AEST)
Week commencing 15 June 2020	Dates: 22, 23 and 26 June 2020 Time: 9:30 am (AEST)
Week commencing 29 June 2020	Dates: 29 June 2020 – 2 July 2020 Time: 9:30 am (AEST)
Week commencing 6 July 2020	Dates: 6 – 8 July 2020 Time: 9:30 am (AEST)

[Porky55]

I do believe that the outcome of this Commission will have a huge bearing on the decision our Govt/s make about the return of cruise ships to Australia.
So far, seems to be leaning in favour of Ruby Princess following ALL the numerous and varied protocols that had been asked of them. 
Time will tell 🤔

[Cruisegroover]

The inquiry sat again yesterday. NSW Police have handed over hundreds of statements from passengers. Counsel indicated that they would call upon some passengers but not sure on how many. Here is a link to a newspaper summary

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/ruby-princess-was-lowrisk-without-info/news-story/066741bb0a40dc148400014250f7852a

[Porky55]

49 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

The inquiry sat again yesterday. NSW Police have handed over hundreds of statements from passengers. Counsel indicated that they would call upon some passengers but not sure on how many. Here is a link to a newspaper summary

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/ruby-princess-was-lowrisk-without-info/news-story/066741bb0a40dc148400014250f7852a

Have actually read Dr Tobins full 26 page statement (have a dull life) from yesterday. The Commission will only be calling passengers as witnesses if they have Statements that directly relate.
It was this that made me think that at least there would be a fair result from this Commission, as hindsight is a “luxurious window through which we look” and in which I hold little trust. 
So, we will wait and see ........

Edited June 10, 2020 by Porky55

[Cyrix400]

During this morning hearing the Commissioner got really stuck into NSW Health Chief Human Bio Security Officer, Dr Tobin- who, under delegated authority was apparently  the one formally approving the disembarkation of pax on 19 March 2020 – last Ruby Princess cruise – before the results of Covid 19 tests came back.

Detailed questions why the ship was assessed as low risk, in spite of a number of Covid 19 tests pending. Also a strong criticism of Dr T for not being sufficiently concerned that the ship had only 10 swabs – i.e. not have enough to do the enhanced swabbing  required  by NSW Health since the middle of February. The requirement was to swab also people with flue like & respiratory illness even without the temperature.  

Questions  by the Commissioner why he should not find that NSW Health was seriously deficient in its role. Even more so as the ship doctor was sufficiently concerned to supply the swabs for early testing when the ship hit anchor at 2.30 am .   Some cruise pax due to give evidence sometime next week.  

[By The Bay]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

During this morning hearing the Commissioner got really stuck into NSW Health Chief Human Bio Security Officer, Dr Tobin- who, under delegated authority was apparently  the one formally approving the disembarkation of pax on 19 March 2020 – last Ruby Princess cruise – before the results of Covid 19 tests came back.

Detailed questions why the ship was assessed as low risk, in spite of a number of Covid 19 tests pending. Also a strong criticism of Dr T for not being sufficiently concerned that the ship had only 10 swabs – i.e. not have enough to do the enhanced swabbing  required  by NSW Health since the middle of February. The requirement was to swab also people with flue like & respiratory illness even without the temperature.  

Questions  by the Commissioner why he should not find that NSW Health was seriously deficient in its role. Even more so as the ship doctor was sufficiently concerned to supply the swabs for early testing when the ship hit anchor at 2.30 am .   Some cruise pax due to give evidence sometime next week.  

Thanks for closely following the hearing and keeping us updated. Not looking good for NSW Health.

[BRANDEE]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

During this morning hearing the Commissioner got really stuck into NSW Health Chief Human Bio Security Officer, Dr Tobin- who, under delegated authority was apparently  the one formally approving the disembarkation of pax on 19 March 2020 – last Ruby Princess cruise – before the results of Covid 19 tests came back.

Detailed questions why the ship was assessed as low risk, in spite of a number of Covid 19 tests pending. Also a strong criticism of Dr T for not being sufficiently concerned that the ship had only 10 swabs – i.e. not have enough to do the enhanced swabbing  required  by NSW Health since the middle of February. The requirement was to swab also people with flue like & respiratory illness even without the temperature.  

Questions  by the Commissioner why he should not find that NSW Health was seriously deficient in its role. Even more so as the ship doctor was sufficiently concerned to supply the swabs for early testing when the ship hit anchor at 2.30 am .   Some cruise pax due to give evidence sometime next week.  

Watching the inquiry:  The NSW health improprieties were unbelievable.  Dr. Sean Tobin is making it look like the health department is a rinky dink organization.  Unbelievable and unacceptable.  

[Cruisegroover]

23 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Watching the inquiry:  The NSW health improprieties were unbelievable.  Dr. Sean Tobin is making it look like the health department is a rinky dink organization.  Unbelievable and unacceptable.  

I agree I am gobsmacked at what I am seeing/hearing and I worked in government for 30 years and find it hard to believe basic things like not knowing who authored reports etc.

 

[By The Bay]

1 hour ago, BRANDEE said:

Watching the inquiry:  The NSW health improprieties were unbelievable.  Dr. Sean Tobin is making it look like the health department is a rinky dink organization.  Unbelievable and unacceptable.  

Your earlier comment about being rushed to the Airport is validated by the reporting today.

 

Dr Tobin was pressed on why that risk was taken by public health administrators, given the inconvenience to passengers of waiting for the results would have been a matter of six hours or so.

 

Commissioner Bret Walker SC said it could not have been about money, nor the commercial interests of cruise ships.

"By elimination I'm left with a question mark. What is it that was weighing against 'waiting and seeing'?" the commissioner asked.

"I think it was a concern for the passengers primarily," Dr Tobin replied.

"What, so they could get home, to their own bed?" Mr Walker asked.

"Well, to their flights," Dr Tobin said.

Ruby Princess passengers boarded at least 10 different flights during their onward travel, which then became the subject of contact tracing. Source.

[Porky55]

1 hour ago, Cruisegroover said:

I agree I am gobsmacked at what I am seeing/hearing and I worked in government for 30 years and find it hard to believe basic things like not knowing who authored reports etc.

 

Couldn’t agree more - 🤔

[Pushka]

It does sound like everything was rush rush rush to get people away. Frightening to think there was no thought given to community spread from the cruise people. Nor their increased health risks by not being tested earlier. Is there any figure though, as to the number of cruise people that developed the virus, compared with the number of people they may have spread it to? All I've read about is cruise passengers who tested positive, but, except for a taxi driver, how many others tested positive as a result of contact with them. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

I suspect the spread wasn't very big as the 14 day self isolation rule was in place then so (hopefully) most people went home and didn't have any contact with other people until either they fell ill or the 14 days was up. The main risk was from those who were infectious and who had to travel by some form of public transport to get home.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

It does sound like everything was rush rush rush to get people away. Frightening to think there was no thought given to community spread from the cruise people. Nor their increased health risks by not being tested earlier. Is there any figure though, as to the number of cruise people that developed the virus, compared with the number of people they may have spread it to? All I've read about is cruise passengers who tested positive, but, except for a taxi driver, how many others tested positive as a result of contact with them. 

Earlier in this saga I read that the number of secondary infections in Australia was 19.

 

Although I have been critical of NSW Health for authorising disembarkation, I feel there would have been a lot more infections if disembarkation was delayed for six or eight hours until the COVID tests could be carried out. If passengers were clustered in public areas the virus would have spread. However, delaying disembarkation and confining people to their cabins, would have been the best option.

[Cruisegroover]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

It does sound like everything was rush rush rush to get people away. Frightening to think there was no thought given to community spread from the cruise people. Nor their increased health risks by not being tested earlier. Is there any figure though, as to the number of cruise people that developed the virus, compared with the number of people they may have spread it to? All I've read about is cruise passengers who tested positive, but, except for a taxi driver, how many others tested positive as a result of contact with them. 

In the Channel 7 investigation of Ruby on 5 April the son of one the people they interviewed visited his parents who had COVID and subsequently tested positive. The son said he only came 2 metres near them.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Cruisegroover
Typo

[Pushka]

3 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

Earlier in this saga I read that the number of secondary infections in Australia was 19.

 

Although I have been critical of NSW Health for authorising disembarkation, I feel there would have been a lot more infections if disembarkation was delayed for six or eight hours until the COVID tests could be carried out. If passengers were clustered in public areas the virus would have spread. However, delaying disembarkation and confining people to their cabins, would have been the best option.

Yes. Once the people mingled prior to disembarkation that may have been the most dangerous period. So based on what has been posted here the community spread was rather low, it was actual passengers who bore the brunt of the infection and likely once it was throughout the ship there wasn't any real hope of containment. If one of those NZ tests had shown positive then isolation could have been implemented onboard and reduced the numbers. 

[banzaii]

3 hours ago, Cruisegroover said:

In the Channel 7 investigation of Ruby on 5 April the son of one the people they interviewed visited his parents who had COVID and subsequently tested positive. The son said he only came 2 metres near them.

But what did he touch in their house?

[Cyrix400]

Another interesting point from the evidence to the enquiry yesterday, not covered in the summary by the Sydney Morning Herald (link may be behind the pay wall if you read too many articles from there https://www.smh.com.au/national/letting-ruby-princess-passengers-disembark-reasonable-says-nsw-health-official-20200610-p55176.html

In reference to the interesting report  prepared by the Health NSW   AFTER the Ruby Princess debacle  , the Commissioner was concerned that this report did not clearly admit the mistakes that  had been  made -   and that it looked  like ‘a spin’ – essentially to suggest the better version/ interpretation of events.

My impression it that this Commissioner, a very experienced senior counsel, does not let  anything get past him – he does not mince his words, and insists of straight answers to his many  questions of witnesses – whilst being fair to them, as well.

[By The Bay]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

My impression it that this Commissioner, a very experienced senior counsel, does not let  anything get past him – he does not mince his words, and insists of straight answers to his many  questions of witnesses – whilst being fair to them, as well.

It will be interesting how the passenger evidence is received by the senior counsel. I hope they stick to facts and not assumptions.

[Porky55]

57 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

It will be interesting how the passenger evidence is received by the senior counsel. I hope they stick to facts and not assumptions.

Very true, impressions become increasingly coloured by personal circumstances and the passing of time.
BRANDEE has one of the most concise reviews of passengers on the cruise - no one really knew what was happening until after. Anything else will just be opinion (though valid of course) this Commissioner is only interested in facts 🤔

Edited June 10, 2020 by Porky55

[mr walker]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

My impression it that this Commissioner, a very experienced senior counsel, does not let  anything get past him – he does not mince his words, and insists of straight answers to his many  questions of witnesses – whilst being fair to them, as well.

 

I agree on this based on the earlier rounds of hearings. I have not had a chance to view much of this weeks. I did read the submission of Dr Tobin & it read like spin to me also, written after the event (of course) to present the best picture. Just like at Carnival it seems, at NSW Health admin, nothing is anyone's job. Procedures are written by pixies & carried out by someone else.

 

I have said it already, but we all need to be forever thankful that our frontline health people are much more capable than the bureaucrats that administer NSW Health. 

[BRANDEE]

19 hours ago, By The Bay said:

Your earlier comment about being rushed to the Airport is validated by the reporting today.

 

Dr Tobin was pressed on why that risk was taken by public health administrators, given the inconvenience to passengers of waiting for the results would have been a matter of six hours or so.

 

Commissioner Bret Walker SC said it could not have been about money, nor the commercial interests of cruise ships.

"By elimination I'm left with a question mark. What is it that was weighing against 'waiting and seeing'?" the commissioner asked.

"I think it was a concern for the passengers primarily," Dr Tobin replied.

"What, so they could get home, to their own bed?" Mr Walker asked.

"Well, to their flights," Dr Tobin said.

Ruby Princess passengers boarded at least 10 different flights during their onward travel, which then became the subject of contact tracing. Source.

 

As I said from the beginning..it was get off the ship and out of the country.  I was told on the night of Mar 18th that no Sydney hotels were booking passengers, when I asked passenger service why, she had no idea.  My original (rebooked)airfare was 27 hours at the airport..then it was rebooked for too early am on the 19th  (we were going to be delayed because NSW health was expected to board) ..it was rebooked, yet again, by midnight the 18th and I only had 8 hours.  2800 passengers being quarantined in Sydney hotels for 14 days was at risk. Not only did Dr. Tobin admit we were "rushed"  so did Ms. Ressler on her first day of testimony.