Rethinking Muster Drills

[ontheweb]

15 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

If you booked a cruise to a warm climate, how can it be deemed as "Subjecting" you to extreme heat. If concerned with exterior Musters, select one of the many cruise lines that use separate interior Assembly Stations. Cruised once with RCCL with an Assembly Station at the Survival Craft, never returned to RCCL. Although their were other reasons, the muster was definitely a consideration.

 

When a ship is designed with the Assembly Stations at the Survival Craft, the Master has no option of changing it, as those are the certified locations. If the ship is in a heat wave, monsoon or the Arctic, you will muster outside. If you select a cruise line using this arrangement, especially when you mention that you have taken many with this arrangement, you are accepting of the arrangement on booking additional cruises.

 

Personally, having experienced it once, I will never work or cruise on a ship that has Assembly Stations at the Survival Craft. In the event of an emergency, I do not want to have to consider pax comfort out in the elements when deciding to sound GES and mustering the pax.

 

Rather than being subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, suggest booking cruises with interior Assembly Stations.

That's an interesting take, but there is nowhere I have ever seen where it is listed that muster drills are indoor or outdoor. I suppose you could ask on these boards before booking for those who have been on a particular ship you are considering. But, I do wonder how many have this as a real factor in choosing a cruise. I can say we never have. 

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

When I started on cruise ships, my wife couldn't believe that I would last, having to deal with passengers.  It was actually the "room temperature IQ" crew who drove me to fits (sad state of US crew).  Once I understood that most passenger interactions were about them getting something for nothing, I just let that roll off, and let the Hotel Manager deal with that aspect.  As I said, it was the few pax who felt that their own safety, and that of everyone else onboard, was of no concern, that really got to me.

 

In my position, I didn't have much dealing with pax as the Chief Officer and hotel side dealt with most issues. I only got the extreme challenges not resolved by Dept Heads.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

In my position, I didn't have much dealing with pax as the Chief Officer and hotel side dealt with most issues. I only got the extreme challenges not resolved by Dept Heads.

As Staff Chief, I was out and about in the Hotel every day, checking on the plumbers and carpenters, touring the galleys for problem areas, and just making myself noticeable to the pax to try and short circuit the whole pax complaint process over technical issues. 

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

That's an interesting take, but there is nowhere I have ever seen where it is listed that muster drills are indoor or outdoor. I suppose you could ask on these boards before booking for those who have been on a particular ship you are considering. But, I do wonder how many have this as a real factor in choosing a cruise. I can say we never have. 

 

I most likely have a different perspective having worked on the ships. With respect to Mustering at the Survival Craft, I recall discussing the Star Princess fire (2006) with some of the officers and pax remained at the Assembly Stations for about 7 hrs after the GES sounded. Standing on the open deck for that period of time would not be overly comfortable.

 

Another more recent example was the partial evacuation of Viking Sky off the Norwegian coast in rather snotty weather. Pax remained at the Assembly Stations for about 24 hrs.

 

Fortunately, incidents are rare, but in the unlikely event, when working on a ship, I did not wish to have pax comfort concerns when deciding to sound the GES. As a pax, in the unlikely event of an emergency, I have no desire to stand outside by the Survival Craft.

[Heidi13]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As Staff Chief, I was out and about in the Hotel every day, checking on the plumbers and carpenters, touring the galleys for problem areas, and just making myself noticeable to the pax to try and short circuit the whole pax complaint process over technical issues. 

 

Chief - that was definitely a benefit of working coastal Ro/Pax, as I had less than 2 hrs per day when I didn't have to be on the Bridge.😀

[Aquahound]

54 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

In my position...

 

46 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As Staff Chief...

 

Ya'll are better men than me.  Unless I was chief of security, I'd be fired after day 2 if I had to deal with passengers.  What am I saying?  I'd be fired in that job too.  I'm too blunt when dealing with liars and the self entitled.....which is a lot of people nowadays. 🙄 

[Essiesmom]

6 hours ago, sanger727 said:

think you do have a bit of a point. I’m fine admitting that I’m nowhere close to as experienced a cruiser as many people here. Have cruised for approx 10 years and in that time have taken 5 cruises. My first cruise was on carnival and it had an outdoor muster. The rest of my cruises were on Norwegian and celebrity and had indoor musters (and by coincidence, they were all in the theater). While I’ve been told that this is all based on the design of the ship and it’s possible to have an indoor muster on carnival and an outdoor muster on the other cruise lines, that simply hasn’t been my experience. The outdoor muster was miserable and left a bad taste in my mouth for carnival. There are other reasons I haven’t returned to carnival but the outdoor muster was certainly a pertinent factor. Yes, I realize it’s only 30 minutes of my vacation, but it was a horribly unpleasant experience that I’ve now associated with carnival. Cruising is a competitive industry so you choose the line you enjoy the most to cruise with in the future. And I’ve seen people pick much sillier reasons for switching lines like not getting their room cleaned twice a day or there not being table clothes at dinner. Is not wanting to standing outside shoulder to shoulder with a ton of people, wedged in the back to the point I start to feel claustrophobic, on a hot day really the worst reason for not choosing a cruise? I don’t think so. If carnival adopted this style muster where I could watch the information and report to the station but not have to get crushed by 100 people on a hot day, I would be more likely to try them again. 

Not all Norwegian musters were inside.  This is NCL Majesty in Charleston, June 14, 2008, as seen from Patriots Point:

 

 

 

All that orange below the lifeboats is guests at muster drill...

 

 

[sanger727]

20 minutes ago, Essiesmom said:

Not all Norwegian musters were inside.  This is NCL Majesty in Charleston, June 14, 2008, as seen from Patriots Point:

 

 

 

All that orange below the lifeboats is guests at muster drill...

 

 

yes, but that was 12 years ago. They no longer require the life jackets and I don’t believe this ship is still in their fleet unless it was renamed. On the epic and jade they were inside so assume all ships from both classes would be.

[mo&fran]

My experience has been that , depending on stateroom location, will can be either inside or outside. The exception being the Oasis class, which does not have enough room on the promenade deck.

 I was onboard Explorer of the Seas in Bayonne in January when the weather  was snowing and all muster was moved indoor due to the icy conditions on deck. 

[chengkp75]

The Sky is still in the fleet, and still does musters outside at the boats, not sure if they require life jackets or not now, they did in 2008.  So, the Sky and Sun will have outdoor musters.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Essiesmom said:

Not all Norwegian musters were inside.  This is NCL Majesty in Charleston, June 14, 2008, as seen from Patriots Point:

 

45 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

yes, but that was 12 years ago. They no longer require the life jackets and I don’t believe this ship is still in their fleet unless it was renamed

The Norwegian Majesty left the NCL fleet in 2009. I was on one of her last NCL cruises, from Philadelphia to Bermuda, in October 2009.

Edited August 4, 2020 by njhorseman

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

I most likely have a different perspective having worked on the ships. With respect to Mustering at the Survival Craft, I recall discussing the Star Princess fire (2006) with some of the officers and pax remained at the Assembly Stations for about 7 hrs after the GES sounded. Standing on the open deck for that period of time would not be overly comfortable.

 

Another more recent example was the partial evacuation of Viking Sky off the Norwegian coast in rather snotty weather. Pax remained at the Assembly Stations for about 24 hrs.

 

Fortunately, incidents are rare, but in the unlikely event, when working on a ship, I did not wish to have pax comfort concerns when deciding to sound the GES. As a pax, in the unlikely event of an emergency, I have no desire to stand outside by the Survival Craft.

Yes, and your perspective based on your experience is welcome. Both you and chengkp75 provide so much knowledge that would ordinarily be unknown to mere passengers like me.

 

I hope the 2 of you know that many of us appreciate what you contribute.

[rkacruiser]

On 8/4/2020 at 1:49 PM, ontheweb said:

Yes, and your perspective based on your experience is welcome. Both you and chengkp75 provide so much knowledge that would ordinarily be unknown to mere passengers like me.

 

I hope the 2 of you know that many of us appreciate what you contribute.

 

Please add my appreciation to your post!

[Cruzaholic41]

On 8/4/2020 at 10:49 AM, ontheweb said:

Yes, and your perspective based on your experience is welcome. Both you and chengkp75 provide so much knowledge that would ordinarily be unknown to mere passengers like me.

 

I hope the 2 of you know that many of us appreciate what you contribute.

 

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Please add my appreciation to your post!

Agreed. I’d add Aquahound to that as well. 

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Agreed. I’d add Aquahound to that as well. 

No problem with adding him to my original list. Well, one problem---once we start adding people, inevitably someone deserving will be left out. Let's just say there are many in here who add much to our knowledge.

[sanger727]

On 8/4/2020 at 12:52 PM, chengkp75 said:

The Sky is still in the fleet, and still does musters outside at the boats, not sure if they require life jackets or not now, they did in 2008.  So, the Sky and Sun will have outdoor musters.

 

Good to know. I think that @Heidi13 has brought up really good points for why it's worth caring whether muster stations are indoors or outdoors. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring indoor muster stations; those who think it's silly to care are free to sail any ship. But if I have knowledge that a ship has outdoor muster stations it will not be high on my list to choose. 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Good to know. I think that @Heidi13 has brought up really good points for why it's worth caring whether muster stations are indoors or outdoors. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring indoor muster stations; those who think it's silly to care are free to sail any ship. But if I have knowledge that a ship has outdoor muster stations it will not be high on my list to choose. 

The question remains how do you find this information. I do not believe the cruise lines in any of their faqs answer where the muster station is. I was going to guess that older ships tend to have it outdoors while newer ships are indoors, but that's only a guess. And our last cruise on an older ship, the Maasdam, actually had it indoors, but then marched us out to see where our lifeboats were situated.

[Smokeyham]

15 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The question remains how do you find this information. ......

One way would be to go on the boards for the particular cruise line and ask the question of someone who has recently been on board the particular ship you are interested in.

[ontheweb]

1 minute ago, Smokeyham said:

One way would be to go on the boards for the particular cruise line and ask the question of someone who has recently been on board the particular ship you are interested in.

I agree. And if you were looking at several ships and/or lines that would take several posts. I may not have made my point well. What I was trying to say was that there was no general information site that would give out that information, at least none that i am aware of.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

So do new ships get designed with inside muster stations?

 

Wondering if the outside muster stations are an “older ship” issue ?

[navybankerteacher]

26 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

So do new ships get designed with inside muster stations?

 

Wondering if the outside muster stations are an “older ship” issue ?

Not scientific at all, but my general recollection is that older (and therefore usually smaller) ships generally have/had fair amounts of promenade deck space - and not so much interior public space - on a per person basis - as the newer and generally much larger ships.

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

So do new ships get designed with inside muster stations?

 

Wondering if the outside muster stations are an “older ship” issue ?

 

In my experience it has nothing to do with the age of the ships, as every pax ship I worked on had interior Assembly Stations. Although I have never worked with Assembly Stations at the Survival Craft, I suspect the main difference is build cost. When the Assembly Stations are in the interior they must have adequate structural fire protection (SFP), must be rated for the number of pax and have approved routes to the Survival Craft, with those routes also requiring structural fire protection.

 

When modifying the Survival Craft from lifeboats/liferafts to Marine Evacuation Systems (MES), we had to upgrade the SFP and conduct computer modelling of moving pax from the Assembly Stations to the new locations of the MES.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

So do new ships get designed with inside muster stations?

 

Wondering if the outside muster stations are an “older ship” issue ?

Pretty much, yes, for a couple of reasons.  The outside muster station is the preferred location per SOLAS, as it is closest to the lifeboats.  One is that the newer ships have larger lifeboats, and these lifeboats are too large for the older gravity davits, so they are hung on fixed, or telescoping davits right above the embarkation point.  The older gravity davits required that the superstructure be stepped back from the full width of the ship not only on the promenade deck, but the deck above, as this is where the boat was stowed.  This also precluded these cabins on this deck being balcony cabins, so moving to the telescoping davits gives them more revenue by providing more balcony cabins and less "obstructed view" ocean view cabins.

 

Second,  with the larger boats, the muster stations on the promenade deck would need to be larger to accommodate the larger number of people in each boat.  Combine this need for more space on the promenade deck, with the cruise lines' acknowlegement that the promenade deck is not a revenue generating space, and you get a desire to reduce the promenade deck, or merely not increase it sufficiently to accommodate the required number of people, and the cruise line benefits by getting more interior (revenue generating) space, and the muster station needs to be moved inside.

 

As Andy says, design of indoor muster stations requires structural and mechanical considerations (fire protection, ventilation, lighting, number and size of ingress and egress points, etc) as well as the use of crowd and crisis management computer paradigms to determine whether the space under consideration can actually handle getting the required number of people into the muster location, whether they can occupy it, and whether they can be moved from there to the boats.

 

Indoor locations have limitations just like outdoor stations.  If a fire is in the same vertical fire zone (section of the ship that runs from the mast top to the keel, from port to starboard, and between the fire doors in the passageways) as the muster location, then lighting and ventilation will be shut off for that fire zone, and that muster station is no longer usable.

[rkacruiser]

I have experienced indoor muster on Celebrity Eclipse, Royal Princess, Nieuw Statendam, MSC Meraviglia and possibly others which I have forgotten.  The attention span of the guests to the videos and oral instructions provided is more minimal than what I have experienced on ships that Muster outdoors.  Meraviglia's was particularly poor.  A jammed pack forward Theater with crew members already wearing their lifejackets and "hats" scattered around the room:  NO attempt to silence the "talkers".  

 

I have no doubt that the ship has an "orderly evacuation" plan for those guests in that Muster Station.  The concern that I have is simple.  In a real emergency, how would those guests respond to whatever directions are given when they are part of hundreds/thousands in that Muster Station?

[Sue Do-Over]

We have recommended some changes:

 

* Include in the life-vest video additional footage of pax boarding an actual lifeboat, and images of it completely full. 

Specifically, to remind pax that there is NO ROOM for personal belongings, no matter how expensive.  That, in fact, your lap is occupied by the front of your bulky vest which is quite possibly pressed against the head/shoulders of the pax seated in front of you.  This is definitely the case in stadium-style lifeboats, which most of us haven't seen 'full'.

 

* Follow all indoor briefings with a walk from the muster station itself out to the actual lifeboats, so that you know the path you would follow, perhaps in the dark.  In times of panic, this could keep guests from finding themselves lost in an unfamiliar area (and reunite anyone who had to dash back to the cabin for meds or identification).  It needs to take only as long as the 'galley tour' -- a quick walk along the route.

 

* Scan in guests, no matter the muster station location.

 

DH and I have often amused ourselves by picking out fellow pax that would panic, would be good to have on hand, and whom we would throw overboard with their stuff.  Oh, and those that would be delicious, in the event of a shipwreck on a deserted island.  (As a diabetic, my higher blood sugar levels might make me a tasty BBQ!)