Rethinking Muster Drills

[Heidi13]

10 hours ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Liverpool / Speke Airport ???

They told us a similar tale ... if you didn’t have several blisters then you had failed. The non-removal of eyebrows was also a failure

Could they get away with such ‘hands on’ training nowadays?

 

I did 2MFG at South Shields, completing the 4-day fire-fighting during phase 1 college in 1976. My last advanced FF was back in 1984, when I completed my Masters. As they didn't have sufficient capacity at the fire-school, we were grand-fathered during our 5-yr certificate renewals.

 

DS has completed a few courses - Vancouver, Glasgow, Alaska, etc. Talking to him, sounds like they are not so intense, some of them use propane rather than diesel and not sure if they experience fire without an SCBA.

 

Similar to the Chief, we were digging through concrete to get below the smoke, then finally doors opened and we were literally picked up and tossed outside to puke.

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

This is a version of "only guilty people need lawyers". If you don't care about your personal info go ahead and post your name and address, your date of birth, your height, your weight, the names of your kids, etc.

 

It isn't just that your information isn't being used for anything criminal (more on that later), but that it is not being used to your benefit. It is being collected to benefit the collector. When a business collects information on you there needs to be disclosure that it is being collected, what it is being collected for and they need to obtain permission on the collection and use of your personal information.

 

As to, "as long as it isn't being used for something criminal"; Kroger (for example) may have no criminal intent in the personal information they gather about you, but once they have the information about you, what are they doing to keep it secure? If the government and credit card companies can't keep your information safe from hackers, how do you expect other, less savvy companies to?

 

 

You are twisting my words.  Saying a guilty person needs a lawyer is not the same as saying only guilty people need a lawyer.  I would no more post my personal information than I would leave valuables on the seat of an unlocked car. That is common sense and it is silly to suggest anyone should do that.  

 

We live in an age of data analytics.  You say you don’t benefit, but I'm pretty sure you are using this forum without paying any hard cash.    I suppose some might think this should be provided for nothing, but there aint no such thing as a free lunch.  And really when I think about it,  I don’t have an issue with marketing being geared towards my interests.   

 

I know nothing about Kroger, but would agree that data security is a major issue.  

 

 

 

 

[sanger727]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And what type of training or drill do you propose for the muster that would prepare passengers for your nightmare scenario?

 

We did have a muster drill that walked us from the indoor muster to the lifeboats. As I wrote in a previous post it was on the HAL Maasdam.

I don’t think there’s an training you could do to prepare passengers for a nightmare scenario that you wouldn’t get sued for. When a nightmare happens, it will be just that. And the success will depend on the crews ability to be calm, commanding, and give clear instructions. 
 

to go back to the fire drill analogy. A fire drill is fine for telling you were to go. But to get the full board experience you have to go to one of those simulators were they pull smoke in and make you check door handles. That goes far beyond an actual fire drill.

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

 

You keep ignoring what I've said and go back to your red herring/strawman. It is not your image being captured that is an issue because they are not capturing you individually and specifically. They are capturing everyone generically and have no idea who you are. It is when they start capturing you individually and specifically, identifying you individually and specifically and use that information to their own benefit that issues start. You do have privacy rights.

 

You have seen in the last year how almost every website you go to now informs you that they collect information on you, plant cookies on your computer and are forced to get your permission? When stores, filling stations, restaurants, etc start capturing your individual and specific identity they should have to get the same kinds of permission.

 

I have loyalty cards from Safeway and Kroger. I fully understand that the loyalty card is not for my benefit. It is for the benefit of the store to collect information on me, my shopping habits and they give me some discounts to make the invasion of my privacy worth it. I read the terms and conditions of the loyalty card and I consented to them. I have no doubt that if they can sell my information to others they will. I am sure that was in the terms I agreed to years ago. But the point is, I was informed and agreed.

 

Information is power and money. How do you think Google, a service you use for absolutely free, is worth over $1 trillion? There are only three other companies with a valuation of over $1t and they all actually sell goods and services. So again, why is Google worth over $1t? Because they know everything about you and they sell that information to others.

 

 

I almost think we are saying the same thing. If you walk into a store today they capture you on video. That video is getting better and better every year. You will give the store your information to get a shoppers card, discounts, etc. it’s not a crazy notion that when facial recognition technology gets better that they couldn’t match your name and information up with the video when you come in. Right now when they have frequent shoplifters they rely on their store security to recognize the offenders. In the future of an alert could ping the minute one of them walked into the store, it would certainly increase their security. Why wouldn’t they invest in this???

 

no, if you go into their store and give them your information and they store this, there is no privacy violation. Not sure where you are getting the notion that there is....

[rkacruiser]

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, the 30 minute requirement is not to, nor has it ever been, to evacuate the entire ship.

 

Chief, I think I finally understand this 30 minute requirement.  The clock begins ticking at the moment when those to be evacuated arrive at the point of their lifesaving device.  Is this correct?

 

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Costa Concordia, I will again stress that had the passengers been mustered at the time it was known the ship was flooding, there was over an hour before the ship re-grounded and started listing to the extent that boats and rafts could not be launched, and had she not drifted back to Giglio, she would likely not have heeled over at all, and would have stayed afloat even longer.

 

 

That is my understanding of this event as well.

 

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Andrea Doria, ships have much different damaged stability requirements than over 60 years ago. 

 

Your explanation of her situation, including the design flaws, is what I have learned as well.

 

12 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

There was a flaw in Doria's design that allowed progressive flooding to reach a generator room, causing a loss of power, which precluded any counter-ballasting to lessen the heel and allow the remaining life boats to be launched. 

 

Given the lack of that watertight door in the tunnel that allowed the sea to enter the generator room, I wonder if it would really have made a difference if that door had been there?.  Given the area of the Andrea Doria that the Stockholm struck, with her empty fuel tanks, and the subsequent rapid flooding, leading to such a rapid list, would the engineers have been able to correct the list to allow for the Port side life boats to be launched?  

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Chief, I think I finally understand this 30 minute requirement.  The clock begins ticking at the moment when those to be evacuated arrive at the point of their lifesaving device.  Is this correct?

 

Again, the "clock" is only that one particular life saving device can be loaded and launched within 30 minutes.  This means that any one lifeboat can be loaded and launched from the time the people arrive at the boat to the time the boat is released from the falls and gets underway.  Not every life saving device will be boarding and launching at the same time, so there is no "30 minute" limit to get everyone off the ship, just 30 minutes to load and launch one boat/MES/raft station.

 

That is my understanding of this event as well.

 

 

Your explanation of her situation, including the design flaws, is what I have learned as well.

 

 

Given the lack of that watertight door in the tunnel that allowed the sea to enter the generator room, I wonder if it would really have made a difference if that door had been there?.  Given the area of the Andrea Doria that the Stockholm struck, with her empty fuel tanks, and the subsequent rapid flooding, leading to such a rapid list, would the engineers have been able to correct the list to allow for the Port side life boats to be launched?  

Without knowing a lot of details of the ship's actual status at the time of collision, and not knowing the ship's systems intimately, but given the fact that the ship remained afloat for 11 hours while heeling over, leads me to believe that there were ways to remedy the list.  Accounts I have read stated that the engineers attempted to pump out the water from the starboard fuel tanks, but that should have been seen as futile from the beginning.  I've also read that the "intakes" to pump sea water into the port fuel tanks were by now above the water, so this was not possible.  I don't know of any steam ship in particular, nor any ship generally, that does not have sea suctions on both sides of the ship so the low side could have been used, but steam ships in particular have large sea suctions directly on the bottom of the ship, and even at 18-20* of list, these would not have been above the water.  Finally, a more creative and quicker way to counterflood would have been to use the ship's fuel transfer pumps and piping, which connect all fuel tanks to pump water from the breached starboard tanks (you wouldn't be lowering the level in these tanks, just using the water there for supply, it will continue to refill) to the empty port tanks.  Yes, the additional weight would bring the ship lower in the water, but I don't believe it would have been enough to sink the ship, since it was designed to operate with all fuel tanks full.

 

It is interesting to note that the Doria was designed to have "water stabilized fuel tanks", where the fuel tanks were supposed to be filled with sea water when empty, much like a diesel submarine brings in water on top of the fuel in the tanks, since it cannot use air to fill the void above the fuel like a surface ship, as this changes the buoyancy of the sub.  This leads me to believe that the designers knew they had a stability problem, as this was not a common practice on ships, then or now, as you then have to dispose of oily ballast water before fueling.  I believe this to be the major cause of her listing so quickly.

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Chief, I think I finally understand this 30 minute requirement.  The clock begins ticking at the moment when those to be evacuated arrive at the point of their lifesaving device.  Is this correct?

 

Not quite correct.

 

When completing timed evacuation trials, in my experience, the Flag State Inspectors started the clock when the Master issued the order to Abandon the ship. Prior to commencing the process, we would have completed a thorough safety inspection of the area and equipment, all the participants/volunteers were mustered at the survival craft wearing lifejackets and had been briefed and Flag State/Class/Owners/Manufacturer's reps would be present. Once the Flag State Inspector was ready, the Owner's Rep was advised, who then requested the Master to proceed.

 

During an emergency, the Master is required to ensure sufficient trained crew are present to complete 5 tasks concurrently, one of which is preparing the survival craft. Lifeboats can be lowered and raised relatively easily, so they are prepared to the point that they can be loaded with pax. Liferafts and MES were different, as once inflated they must be returned to a service station for service and repacking, so they were never inflated prior to use. For D/L rafts, we placed a raft at each station, secured the davit hook and all lines. For an MES the only prep was opening the door.

 

Once the Master issued the "Abandon Ship" order the Flag State Inspector started the clock. If lifeboats, embarkation would commence immediately and they had 30 mins to load the boat to capacity and lower it to the water.

 

With D/L rafts, the raft was immediately inflated by pulling the painter - rafts are required to fully inflate in < 60 secs. This metric is also recorded. Once the raft is loaded with 25 people, it is lowered to the water, hook recovered and another raft is in place.  They repeat with as many rafts as they can handle in 30-mins.

 

With MES, once abandon ship is issued, the deploy order is given. Similar to liferafts, the entire MES rafts and slides must inflate in < 60 secs. We time this by listening for the pressure relief valves opening. Depending on the system, the crew must send a few crew down first to prepare the rafts. Pax are descending from about minute 2 to minute 5, depending on manufacturer.

 

Other Flag States may only require the survival craft be lowered to the water, but in Canada we were required to tow all survival craft 100 yds from the ship to stop the clock. I also note other Flag States may have different interpretations of SOLAS, as these are my experiences with UK (many years ago) and more recently with Canada, where I had to plan/operate a few of them.

[ed01106]

On 9/12/2020 at 7:18 PM, ldubs said:

Gosh, my face has changed a lot in 10 years.  I hope they still recognize it is me.  

 

 

Actually it hasn’t.  The software isn’t counting your winkles or checking if you have bags under your eyes.  Key metrics are the shape if your ears and the distance between distinct points on your face.  Eye to eye, Eye to mouth etc.

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, ed01106 said:

Actually it hasn’t.  The software isn’t counting your winkles or checking if you have bags under your eyes.  Key metrics are the shape if your ears and the distance between distinct points on your face.  Eye to eye, Eye to mouth etc.

 

I was joking.  😎

[ed01106]

1 minute ago, ldubs said:

 

I was joking.  😎

Didn’t realize that.  Many people think the software uses the same cues humans use, for facial recognition, e.g. shape of mouth, color of hair, existence of facial hair, hair style,  skin tone, dimples, freckles etc. all which change over time and are easily disguised, however, what the software uses is different cues.  Most important is shape of ears. 

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, ed01106 said:

Didn’t realize that.  Many people think the software uses the same cues humans use, for facial recognition, e.g. shape of mouth, color of hair, existence of facial hair, hair style,  skin tone, dimples, freckles etc. all which change over time and are easily disguised, however, what the software uses is different cues.  Most important is shape of ears. 

 

Interesting and really makes sense if you think about it.  Anyway, when the AI categorizes my face I hope it uses "chiseled" and not "confused".   Haha.   

 

Off on a tangent, again.  I think the word is pareidolia (I had to look it up) - for when we see faces in inanimate objects.

 

 

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Not quite correct.

 

Thanks for your response.  I need to have some time to "digest" what I am reading.   

 

 

[Heidi13]

15 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thanks for your response.  I need to have some time to "digest" what I am reading. 

 

 

 

If you have any additional survival craft/evacuation questions, feel free to ask them.

[sanger727]

On 9/12/2020 at 8:10 PM, ontheweb said:

And coming back hours later, my question still has not been answered. The only other comment was that it was a very valid question.

 

SO HOW DID MSC DO THE MUSTER DRILL?

 

Found this on a live report from the MSC Grandiosa - it sounds to me like a variation of the emuster

 

"Muster drill yesterday was about watching a short video in your cabin and than dialling a number on the cabin phone that made sure you were there. Then we must reach our muster station where cruise card was read, quick and easy"

[ilikeanswers]

On 9/15/2020 at 5:13 AM, ed01106 said:

Didn’t realize that.  Many people think the software uses the same cues humans use, for facial recognition, e.g. shape of mouth, color of hair, existence of facial hair, hair style,  skin tone, dimples, freckles etc. all which change over time and are easily disguised, however, what the software uses is different cues.  Most important is shape of ears. 

 

At passport control facial recognition use to always fail to recognise me until I renewed my passport🙄. Maybe my ears have changed😄 .

[ed01106]

8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

At passport control facial recognition use to always fail to recognise me until I renewed my passport🙄. Maybe my ears have changed😄 .

Possibly. But more likely would be the software keeps getting improved and/or the addition of a higher resolution photo taken a slightly different angle improved things.

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, ed01106 said:

Possibly. But more likely would be the software keeps getting improved and/or the addition of a higher resolution photo taken a slightly different angle improved things.

 

I guess the fact there is still a need for super recognisers is an indicator the technology is far from perfected😜. 

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:27 PM, JRG said:

Back to the thread topic,   here is an article from CC that I found from 3 days ago about RCG.

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5578/

 

It validates some of what I was saying regarding future uses of Apps.   

 

 

this is awesome.  Thanks for sharing

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 9/17/2020 at 2:53 PM, sanger727 said:

 

Found this on a live report from the MSC Grandiosa - it sounds to me like a variation of the emuster

 

"Muster drill yesterday was about watching a short video in your cabin and than dialling a number on the cabin phone that made sure you were there. Then we must reach our muster station where cruise card was read, quick and easy"

Somebody is thinking bout of the box