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Rethinking Muster Drills


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58 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

For the time being, they're asking drive-on passengers to remain in their vehicles.  Not sure how long they plan to keep that in place though.  

 

Thanks. We make the trip from Everett to Whidbey often enough that we don't usually get out of the car any more.

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37 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

It was a few years since I went on one but I don't think that there are any drills on the big ferries between Sweden and Finland. It's often overnight, 15 hours and in bad weather. If drills aren't needed on thoose ships I don't understand why they are so important on real cruiseships. Can anyone explain it for me?

The rules are that ships like ferries, that have a less than 24 hour itinerary, and/or that do what are known as "near coastal" voyages, do not need to have passenger muster drills.  I just looked up the Swedish and Finnish definitions of "near coastal" waters, and they both include the entire Baltic Sea.  As noted in earlier posts, it varies from country to country as to what constitutes "near coastal", for instance Spain varies by size of vessel from 2 to 20 miles, Netherlands is 30 miles, while the UK is 150 miles.  The rationale behind the SOLAS "near coastal" rules are that the ship is as it says, near the coast, and therefore rescue is closer at hand than a ship that ventures further out to sea.  Also, you will be on the ferry for less than 24 hours, while you would be on the cruise ship for several days.

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5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The rules are that ships like ferries, that have a less than 24 hour itinerary, and/or that do what are known as "near coastal" voyages, do not need to have passenger muster drills.  I just looked up the Swedish and Finnish definitions of "near coastal" waters, and they both include the entire Baltic Sea.  As noted in earlier posts, it varies from country to country as to what constitutes "near coastal", for instance Spain varies by size of vessel from 2 to 20 miles, Netherlands is 30 miles, while the UK is 150 miles.  The rationale behind the SOLAS "near coastal" rules are that the ship is as it says, near the coast, and therefore rescue is closer at hand than a ship that ventures further out to sea.  Also, you will be on the ferry for less than 24 hours, while you would be on the cruise ship for several days.

 

Thank you for the explanation.

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2 hours ago, euro cruiser said:

 

In an actual emergency, when the adrenaline is pumping and crowds of people, some of them impaired, are pushing, shoving, crying, etc., everything changes.  I've probably done hundreds of fire drills in various buildings throughout my life but when I was in an actual fire all bets were off ... you try staying down low and calmly exiting while a few dozen frightened people are climbing up your back (literally) trying to get out ahead of you.

 You are right, I worked in a safety function for a federal agency for a number of years, all bets are off in a true emergency.  And fire is one of the biggest risks on a ship,  staying down low and calm is very important.   They don't cover any of that in drill. 

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2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

This type of attitude is most unfortunate, but sadly it is all to common. Similar to the Chief, I have almost 40 years of attending weekly drills, challenging my Chief Officer to make them as realistic as possible. Why - because we react in an emergency similar to how we train.

 

The crew are training hard, with many of them waking up from time off-shift, to ensure they are prepared to save the passengers in an emergency. Yes, back in the days as a Deck Officer working 12-4, I got to bed after watch at 04:00 and was up again about 9'ish for drills. No point going back to bed after the drill and debrief, as I was back on the Bridge  before Noon. Surely it isn't too much of an imposition for you to attend, as in addition to a regulatory requirement, I consider it a common courtesy and a necessary component of managing my own safety.

 

Even when travelling on my old ship, I still listen to the announcement and I wrote the entire company's emergency procedures.

This an informed attitude, I worked in a safety function for a number of years.  In real emergencies every is different.   I saw that reviewing  accident investigation reports.  What we are talking about here, how the drill could be changed for passengers.  With what is being done a TV video, I feel it  is more than adequate.   I did attend the drill on last cruise, saw the repeat on my cabin tv, reviewed the back of the cabin door. 

 

I did not comment on crew training that is a different situation. 

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3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, after 45 years of weekly fire drills, I think I'll just skip out and watch one on the TV.  Hope you're not counting on me to keep you safe.

 I know from experience everything is different in a real emergency... I will count on my own common sense first. 

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2 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

It was a few years since I went on one but I don't think that there are any drills on the big ferries between Sweden and Finland. It's often overnight, 15 hours and in bad weather. If drills aren't needed on thoose ships I don't understand why they are so important on real cruiseships. Can anyone explain it for me?

The Regulations are variable depending on the type of ship (> 12 is considered a pax v/l, while less is considered a cargo ship) and type of voyage. In the old days we had Foreign Going (FG) and Home Trade (HT), with HT now called Near Coastal. The length of voyage is also relevant - long international or short international.

 

Most ferries operate in Near Coastal waters, which have less rigerous requirements, as they are closer to the coast and ports of refuge. Our ferries all have a certificate restricting the operational area, which the Master must comply with, unless responding to a Mayday.

 

Although many cruise ships may operate in similar conditions to the Baltic ferries, their certification permits long international voyages, so they must comply with those requirements.

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3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Once again the point that chengkp75 made that the drill is actually more for the crew to actually herd the passengers is being ignored.

If you call herding  telling folks to follow the emergency lights and come into drill area and sick down, don't see the need for repeat training for the crew. 

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20 minutes ago, pris993 said:

If you call herding  telling folks to follow the emergency lights and come into drill area and sick down, don't see the need for repeat training for the crew. 

Ah, so you've witnessed every aspect and every function of every crew member involved in the passenger muster?  Good.  And, no, it's not telling folks to follow the signs, it's telling folks to "stop arguing, you can't go this way to your station, because there's a fire in the way", "yes, sir, you have to ditch the drink", "no, ma'am, you can't go through the bar on the way to your station", or reporting to security that there are people in a cabin that don't want to attend, and dealing with every other insult and argument presented by a couple thousand a-holes, who expect the crew to save their hides, as well as dealing with those folks who may feel panicky in tight crowds, and a few other minor inconveniences to the passengers.  Like I said, since you know it all, the crew can sit back and let you deal with all emergencies.  If you are as experienced as you say in safety functions, then you should be aware of the maxim that other maritime professionals have been saying, and that every first responder will repeat, you react in an emergency as you have trained,  and you should be one of the people who rise above their "own common sense" and assist the crew with dealing with people, whether it is an emergency or a drill.

 

I've done this for 45 years, and I can still learn something during a drill, if I pay attention, and participate instead of sitting back saying, "I've done all this before".

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22 minutes ago, pris993 said:

If you call herding  telling folks to follow the emergency lights and come into drill area and sick down, don't see the need for repeat training for the crew. 

 

There are crew and entertainment staff changes every time the ship returns to homeport, and sometimes between.  So yes, the drill is necessary.

 

However, I do sorta see the point you're making.  The drills are scheduled with no surprises.  An effective drill would be a totally random drill, with full muster, on a sea day during the cruise.  But we all know that won't happen, so the regular drills remain a must....not to mention its the law.  

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Those that whine about muster drills would do best to simply stay on land.  The muster drill is a major component of the overall safety plan for any ship.   Having passengers go to their muster stations (which can be inside or outside) is actually an important part of the drill.  This allows the passengers to learn where to go and also exercises the crew who need to go to their proper stations, follow their rules, help direct passengers and deal with any issues.  When it comes to muster drills we do get tired of hearing all the whining from some passengers.  Social distancing at a muster drill is simply not possible just like social distancing on any mass market ship is impossible!  While folks can choose to maintain their distance when possible, there are many instances where it is truly impossible unless one chooses to isolate themselves in their cabins for the duration.

 

So here is one factoid!  It it turns out that social distancing is necessary for the health and welfare of passengers/crew there will be no more mass market cruises!   It is the same when it comes to commercial airplanes.  Once everyone is done trying to publicize that they are doing the politically correct thing, the public will realize that you cannot possible social distance (keeping a 6 foot radius) in the economy section of any aircraft.  It is just not possible unless the aircraft is about half empty....and in that case the airline will soon be bankrupt and it still will not be possible (with no more flights).

 

Hank

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27 minutes ago, pris993 said:

This an informed attitude, I worked in a safety function for a number of years.  In real emergencies every is different.   I saw that reviewing  accident investigation reports.  What we are talking about here, how the drill could be changed for passengers.  With what is being done a TV video, I feel it  is more than adequate.   I did attend the drill on last cruise, saw the repeat on my cabin tv, reviewed the back of the cabin door. 

 

I did not comment on crew training that is a different situation. 

When it comes to emergency situations, with almost 30 yrs in command of pax v/l's, I have a little first hand experience in how pax and crew react once the alarms are sounded. In addition, I have covered the theory and conducted modelling exercises of human behavior, when presenting LSA modifications to Flag/Class. With 45 years at sea, many as Chief Engineer, I have no doubt the Chief also has considerable real time experience with shipboard emergencies.

 

The content of Muster Drills are based on what we want pax to do and is derived from extensive research on human factors, ship's structural fire protection and risk analysis. In an emergency, the Master (Officers & Crew) must have sufficient crew to concurrently:

  • Navigate v/l
  • Command & control
  • Prepare life-saving appliances
  • Conduct emergency response, boundary cooling, etc
  • Muster & manage pax.

Therefore, mustering the pax is only 1 of 5 concurrent actions, but it takes the most crew, as Assembly Stations must be manned, stairway guides in place and cabin sweepers checking all cabins, getting medications, jackets, etc. While fire is always a danger at sea, it is only 1 of many situations where the Master may call the pax to the Assembly Stations.

 

Before the GES is sounded the stairway guides are already informed of the situation and all no-go areas, which are unsafe for pax. While the pax have not been informed of the situation the crew have and know the best actions and route to get pax to the Assembly Stations safely.

 

In the event of a fire, modern detection systems provide the Bridge an early alarm and it can be rapidly contained with the ship's structural fire protection. Once the Quick Response Team confirms a fire, all fire doors in the vicinity are closed in the immediate vicinity to contain fire, smoke, heat and poisonous gases. Since I started a sea, the number of fires on ships are significantly less and with current high-fog systems are rapidly extinguished. Therefore, the chance of a pax actually encountering a fire is fairly low and if it is a cabin fire, crew members will be quickly on scene to provide assistance. Major fires in Engineering or Galley spaces should be quickly contained by fire doors/shutters and knocked down by high fog.

 

You mentioned the drill should instruct pax to stay low, but that is only beneficial during a fire, which is only 1 potential issue for mustering pax. In a non-fire situation, had pax been advised to stay low during the Muster Drill, it could be detrimental. What we want pax to do is follow the IMO wayfinding signage and crew directions. If smoke is present, you naturally have to go low to view the wayfinding signage - that is why it located on the deck or bottom of bulkheads. Crew will also advise pax to stay low, but having actually fought fires, it does not take much to figure out where the best place to be is, without being trained.

 

A ship's emergency has numerous variables, so the Muster Drill covers the most basic requirements that apply to all emergencies - on hearing the GES, go to your Assembly Station and follow crew directions. Numerous studies have proven that actually going to the Assembly Station during a drill is beneficial in the event of an actual emergency.

 

Chief, Aquahound please feel free to expand any points I forgot.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Once everyone is done trying to publicize that they are doing the politically correct thing, t

I find that offensive and surprised that YOU would make that comment. Some people have to fly for work.Leisure travel is not necessary. We MIGHT do an under two hour flight but that would be it. No intl. And being politically correct doesn't drive my actions whatsoever. I do what's right for myself and my planet. If I never set foot on an airplane or cruise ship so what? I get enjoyment wherever I am. I feel sorry for those who are unable to do that.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I've done this for 45 years, and I can still learn something during a drill, if I pay attention, and participate instead of sitting back saying, "I've done all this before".

 

As a teacher who has been involved in supervising students during fire and tornado drills over 35 years, the Chief's post is true.  One does not experience the sounds that announce what that "alarm" may be about every day.  One forgets; one becomes confused; one never stops learning.  The human brain seems to require repetition for one to learn.  Did you study a foreign language?  How did you learn to conjugate a verb?  

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Chief, Aquahound please feel free to expand any points I forgot.

 

 

I think you nailed it. 

 

My seagoing resume isn't quite as long; I'm still relatively young and only have 27 years between my active duty, reserve, and civilian USCG employment.  I did drive ships but the largest vessel I was ever in charge of was only 41'.  But that said, my experience with emergency drills...whether Bravo, Oscar or otherwise....is extensive.  And as someone who has experienced shipboard fires, runaway engines, man overboards, etc, I can say those drills are invaluable.  Something just "clicks" in your head and you know exactly what to do. 

 

Cruise ship passengers might selfishly see the 1 singular drill as an inconvenience but if an emergency were to actually occur (God forbid), that repetition by the crew is what's going to save their lives. 

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2 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

I think you nailed it. 

 

My seagoing resume isn't quite as long; I'm still relatively young and only have 27 years between my active duty, reserve, and civilian USCG employment.  I did drive ships but the largest vessel I was ever in charge of was only 41'.  But that said, my experience with emergency drills...whether Bravo, Oscar or otherwise....is extensive.  And as someone who has experienced shipboard fires, runaway engines, man overboards, etc, I can say those drills are invaluable.  Something just "clicks" in your head and you know exactly what to do. 

 

Cruise ship passengers might selfishly see the 1 singular drill as an inconvenience but if an emergency were to actually occur (God forbid), that repetition by the crew is what's going to save their lives. 

Thank you. I find it hard to believe that people actually think that it is not important to train the crew.

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1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

When it comes to emergency situations, with almost 30 yrs in command of pax v/l's, I have a little first hand experience in how pax and crew react once the alarms are sounded. In addition, I have covered the theory and conducted modelling exercises of human behavior, when presenting LSA modifications to Flag/Class. With 45 years at sea, many as Chief Engineer, I have no doubt the Chief also has considerable real time experience with shipboard emergencies.

 

The content of Muster Drills are based on what we want pax to do and is derived from extensive research on human factors, ship's structural fire protection and risk analysis. In an emergency, the Master (Officers & Crew) must have sufficient crew to concurrently:

  • Navigate v/l
  • Command & control
  • Prepare life-saving appliances
  • Conduct emergency response, boundary cooling, etc
  • Muster & manage pax.

Therefore, mustering the pax is only 1 of 5 concurrent actions, but it takes the most crew, as Assembly Stations must be manned, stairway guides in place and cabin sweepers checking all cabins, getting medications, jackets, etc. While fire is always a danger at sea, it is only 1 of many situations where the Master may call the pax to the Assembly Stations.

 

Before the GES is sounded the stairway guides are already informed of the situation and all no-go areas, which are unsafe for pax. While the pax have not been informed of the situation the crew have and know the best actions and route to get pax to the Assembly Stations safely.

 

In the event of a fire, modern detection systems provide the Bridge an early alarm and it can be rapidly contained with the ship's structural fire protection. Once the Quick Response Team confirms a fire, all fire doors in the vicinity are closed in the immediate vicinity to contain fire, smoke, heat and poisonous gases. Since I started a sea, the number of fires on ships are significantly less and with current high-fog systems are rapidly extinguished. Therefore, the chance of a pax actually encountering a fire is fairly low and if it is a cabin fire, crew members will be quickly on scene to provide assistance. Major fires in Engineering or Galley spaces should be quickly contained by fire doors/shutters and knocked down by high fog.

 

You mentioned the drill should instruct pax to stay low, but that is only beneficial during a fire, which is only 1 potential issue for mustering pax. In a non-fire situation, had pax been advised to stay low during the Muster Drill, it could be detrimental. What we want pax to do is follow the IMO wayfinding signage and crew directions. If smoke is present, you naturally have to go low to view the wayfinding signage - that is why it located on the deck or bottom of bulkheads. Crew will also advise pax to stay low, but having actually fought fires, it does not take much to figure out where the best place to be is, without being trained.

 

A ship's emergency has numerous variables, so the Muster Drill covers the most basic requirements that apply to all emergencies - on hearing the GES, go to your Assembly Station and follow crew directions. Numerous studies have proven that actually going to the Assembly Station during a drill is beneficial in the event of an actual emergency.

 

Chief, Aquahound please feel free to expand any points I forgot.

 

 

I am not questioning your knowledge, experience, the issue is whether a video can fill the bill for a drill, I think so... Obviously in an emergency I would use my common sense and listen to directions at the same.    I value the knowledge and experience of the crew.  

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1 hour ago, Aquahound said:

Cruise ship passengers might selfishly see the 1 singular drill as an inconvenience but if an emergency were to actually occur (God forbid), that repetition by the crew is what's going to save their lives. 

 

That repetition is what is valuable for cruise guests as well.

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54 minutes ago, euro cruiser said:

Common sense is valuable for normal situations for which we have an array of experiences, I doubt if it really helps much in an emerging situation where you have little/no experience, limited information, and a lot of confusion.

 

I think a problem may be that a cruise guest list is composed of newbies to cruising as well as more seasoned cruisers.  The seasoned cruisers' common sense in a maritime emergency event is different than the common sense possessed by a newbie to cruising.   

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2 hours ago, clo said:

I find that offensive and surprised that YOU would make that comment. Some people have to fly for work.Leisure travel is not necessary. We MIGHT do an under two hour flight but that would be it. No intl. And being politically correct doesn't drive my actions whatsoever. I do what's right for myself and my planet. If I never set foot on an airplane or cruise ship so what? I get enjoyment wherever I am. I feel sorry for those who are unable to do that.

Sorry you found that post offensive but it was strictly about muster drills, nothing more.  Nobody mentioned flying which has just about everyone concerned.

 

Hank

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2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Once everyone is done trying to publicize that they are doing the politically correct thing, the public will realize that you cannot possible social distance (keeping a 6 foot radius) in the economy section of any aircraft.  It is just not possible unless the aircraft is about half empty....and in that case the airline will soon be bankrupt and it still will not be possible (with no more flights).

 

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14 hours ago, pris993 said:

I am not questioning your knowledge, experience, the issue is whether a video can fill the bill for a drill, I think so... Obviously in an emergency I would use my common sense and listen to directions at the same.    I value the knowledge and experience of the crew.  


Bingo.  I dont think a 5 minute muster drill is making experts out of anyone on what to do in an emergency .  At best, it gets you to the place where the crew will get you into the lifeboat that will bring you to safety.  It’s the crews experience that will save lives , not the passengers

 

So as the OP, let me reiterate my message that isn’t it mostly about making you know where to go and putting a scanning station and making you scan before the ship sails really the objective . 
 

There’s no need to have people line up side by side and 10 rows deep in a small space if that’s the main objective .  There are other ways and we all need to have an open mind

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53 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:


Bingo.  I dont think a 5 minute muster drill is making experts out of anyone on what to do in an emergency .  At best, it gets you to the place where the crew will get you into the lifeboat that will bring you to safety.  It’s the crews experience that will save lives , not the passengers

 

So as the OP, let me reiterate my message that isn’t it mostly about making you know where to go and putting a scanning station and making you scan before the ship sails really the objective . 
 

There’s no need to have people line up side by side and 10 rows deep in a small space if that’s the main objective .  There are other ways and we all need to have an open mind

What if the main objective is to have a drill for the crew in which they actually interact with passengers as they would have to in a real emergency? Those on these boards who are experienced mariners seem to say that is the real purpose. I think it was bluntly put by Chengkp75 as the duty of the passengers is "to show up and shut up".

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18 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I've done this for 45 years, and I can still learn something during a drill, if I pay attention, and participate instead of sitting back saying, "I've done all this before".

Edited 18 hours ago by chengkp75

Chief, when I was in law enforcement, we had a saying that went (and it's the same for every emergency situation) when you think you've learned EVERY aspect of your job, when the chips are down, watch out !! That's when something is about to bite YOU in the rear (and of course, I'm being delicate language-wise)🙂

 

Mac

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