Rethinking Muster Drills

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, SmoothFlying said:

Chief, when I was in law enforcement, we had a saying that went (and it's the same for every emergency situation) when you think you've learned EVERY aspect of your job, when the chips are down, watch out !! That's when something is about to bite YOU in the rear (and of course, I'm being delicate language-wise)🙂

 

Mac

Yes, the day I stop learning something new in my job is the day I retire, though the plan is to retire before I reach that stage.

[Joebucks]

Wishful thinking topic as always. The muster drill presentation is beyond worthless. No one there has a clue what is being said or what is going on.

 

A simple video beforehand AND a check-in of your muster area, could actually be even more informative.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

43 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Wishful thinking topic as always. The muster drill presentation is beyond worthless. No one there has a clue what is being said or what is going on.

 

A simple video beforehand AND a check-in of your muster area, could actually be even more informative.

perfect.  Thanks

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, the day I stop learning something new in my job is the day I retire, though the plan is to retire before I reach that stage.

I guess reading the two posts immediately after your post, it seems obvious that no matter how many times it is repeated, the idea of the muster is more as a necessary drill for the crew will not penetrate the minds of many here.

 

But, keep tilting at windmills; there are some of us who learn from your posts.

[Heidi13]

23 hours ago, pris993 said:

I am not questioning your knowledge, experience, the issue is whether a video can fill the bill for a drill, I think so... Obviously in an emergency I would use my common sense and listen to directions at the same.    I value the knowledge and experience of the crew.  

Never thought you were questioning our knowledge, experience, etc. just trying to provide facts why watching a film in your cabin is not sufficient. The primary objective is to train pax to go to the Assembly Station on hearing the GES. Watching a film does not replace actually participating in the exercise.

 

If watching a film was acceptable, Cruise Lines wouldn't waste the effort of holding Muster Drills.

 

When on cruises > 30 days, you participate in another drill - why? With repetition you are more likely to do that action in a real emergency.

[pris993]

2 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Never thought you were questioning our knowledge, experience, etc. just trying to provide facts why watching a film in your cabin is not sufficient. The primary objective is to train pax to go to the Assembly Station on hearing the GES. Watching a film does not replace actually participating in the exercise.

 

If watching a film was acceptable, Cruise Lines wouldn't waste the effort of holding Muster Drills.

 

When on cruises > 30 days, you participate in another drill - why? With repetition you are more likely to do that action in a real emergency.

When I think about teaching passengers or training them to  go to their assembly station, all I can think of is reports of what happened on the Accordia  (believe that was the ship that went down off the coast of Italy a few years back)... passengers were told to go to their cabins by crew, actually they had not even done a safety drill yet, if I recall right.  Those who followed crew directions died.  So I do think we need to use our own common sense and not blindly follow safety drill directions or verbal ones for that matter too.    Obviously this was an extreme emergency, in most cases probably going to an assembly station would not be a bad thing.   I am sure cruise lines will continue to do what they think is best and we all will be compelled to follow it regardless of how useful we think it really is.   Happy safe cruising that is what it is all about. 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, pris993 said:

When I think about teaching passengers or training them to  go to their assembly station, all I can think of is reports of what happened on the Accordia  (believe that was the ship that went down off the coast of Italy a few years back)... passengers were told to go to their cabins by crew, actually they had not even done a safety drill yet, if I recall right.  Those who followed crew directions died.  So I do think we need to use our own common sense and not blindly follow safety drill directions or verbal ones for that matter too.    Obviously this was an extreme emergency, in most cases probably going to an assembly station would not be a bad thing.   I am sure cruise lines will continue to do what they think is best and we all will be compelled to follow it regardless of how useful we think it really is.   Happy safe cruising that is what it is all about. 

It was the Concordia.  It was not as simple as "those who followed crew instructions died".  Perhaps you should read the official Italian Maritime Authority report on the disaster.  Aside from the actual initial grounding, the root cause of all the deaths and issues that happened in the wake of the grounding, was the Captain's failure to signal passenger muster in a timely fashion.  Crew at muster stations were following orders to send passengers away, but all the passengers were sent away, not just those who died.

 

So, tell me, what safety drill instructions do you think might be ignored?  Really, I'm asking.  Also, what do you do during muster drill, since you apparently have heard it so many times that you tune out?  Have you ever stood there and done the exercise of thinking you are in a particular location on the ship, and a fire breaks out, and it is in between where you are and your muster station?  Can you determine different paths from your location to the muster station depending on where the fire is, knowing that you will not be allowed to traverse the deck the fire is on, nor any deck above, for the length of a fire zone?  That's the common sense you should bring to muster drill, and what I mean by being involved in the drill.

[rkacruiser]

I am reading two books about the Prinsendam disaster.  The first one that I read was written by one of the ship's 2nd Officers.  The one that I started today, None Were Lost, was written by a USCG Operations Officer on the Cutter Boutwell that was at the scene of the tragedy.  

 

The 2nd Officer's book indicated that the Captain initially asked the passengers to proceed to the aft Promenade Deck (Lido Restaurant area).  That has been confirmed by the accounts that I have read in None Were Lost which includes recollections by guests and crew.  I am not far enough into the book to form any conclusions, but already, I have read memories by guests that some did NOT go to that area when the Master first asked them to do so.  The theater, the Lounge, the Prinsen Club have all been mentioned as to where some went when they left their staterooms.  One guest stated that they made an attempt to return to their stateroom and was met at a staircase by an Officer wearing a breathing apparatus coming from below that deck and was told:  You cannot do so!

 

Some guests said that they did not hear the Captain's initial announcement.  (A comment has been made in the book that some guests had removed their hearing aid for the night.  The ship's Hostess attempted to wake some of those guests who had hearing issues and had difficulty doing so in spite of the ship's alarm bells being activated.)

 

In an emergency, for the safety of themselves and of others, people need to follow the directions given.  Whether one likes it or not.    

 

Given the images that I saw on the national evening news tonight, it's a lesson that has yet to be learned by many.    

Edited May 25, 2020 by rkacruiser

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, pris993 said:

When I think about teaching passengers or training them to  go to their assembly station, all I can think of is reports of what happened on the Accordia  (believe that was the ship that went down off the coast of Italy a few years back)... passengers were told to go to their cabins by crew, actually they had not even done a safety drill yet, if I recall right.  Those who followed crew directions died.  So I do think we need to use our own common sense and not blindly follow safety drill directions or verbal ones for that matter too.    Obviously this was an extreme emergency, in most cases probably going to an assembly station would not be a bad thing.   I am sure cruise lines will continue to do what they think is best and we all will be compelled to follow it regardless of how useful we think it really is.   Happy safe cruising that is what it is all about. 

Not trying to be personal here, but twice you have mentioned "using your commonsense" in times of an emergency. Unfortunately many people think they are using their commonsense, and know more than the responders, when in fact they are doing exactly the wrong things. After almost 40 years in emergency services, and a wife who has the same, we could write many, many volumes on when people did the WRONG things, thinking they were the best things. Many have died deciding to not following wise directions or guidance.

[clo]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Not trying to be personal here, but twice you have mentioned "using your commonsense" in times of an emergency.

S/he is doing the same with COVID precautions, i.e., masks, social distancing.

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, pris993 said:

When I think about teaching passengers or training them to  go to their assembly station, all I can think of is reports of what happened on the Accordia  (believe that was the ship that went down off the coast of Italy a few years back)... passengers were told to go to their cabins by crew, actually they had not even done a safety drill yet, if I recall right.  Those who followed crew directions died.  So I do think we need to use our own common sense and not blindly follow safety drill directions or verbal ones for that matter too.    Obviously this was an extreme emergency, in most cases probably going to an assembly station would not be a bad thing.   I am sure cruise lines will continue to do what they think is best and we all will be compelled to follow it regardless of how useful we think it really is.   Happy safe cruising that is what it is all about. 

Further to the Chief's response, the ship's name was Costa Concordia and before posting speculation, I suggest reading the actual Incident Report from MIT, the Italian Marine Investigation Body.

 

A few key points from the report:

• The vessel boarded passengers in multiple ports, but a muster drill was only held in one port. When no drill was scheduled, the passengers watched a film in multiple languages. Did the lack of attending a formal Muster Drill contribute, we will never know, but SOLAS Regulations were changed after this accident to require a Muster Drill prior to departure. Shows you what the people driving ship safety think of watching a film rather than attending a drill.
• The GES was not sounded until about 45 minutes after the Bridge knew the number of breached compartments would result in sinking
• Only after sounding the GES did the Master make his first P/A announcement, requesting passengers to go to their Assembly Stations, not their cabins. This is recorded on the VDR Bridge Audio.
• Two minutes after sounding the GES, the Master decided to Abandon Ship, but the Abandon Ship Announcement was not given until almost 20 mins later.

 

With respect to your comment that those who followed crew directions, in addition to the Chief's response, I note that at least 4 people were found in a lift. They probably were in the lift when the ship blacked out, so could not have followed crew directions.

 

You have mentioned using your common sense and not blindly following the directions of the crew. Before making an informed decision, personally I need to gain situational awareness and the developing situation. How does a passenger gain the required information to make a reliable decision without paying attention to the crew. At sea, one of the first things we are taught is not making decisions on skanty information. While all crew members may not have full awareness of the situation, I'll guarantee that crew members are better informed that any passenger. When navigating around the ship, you may be unable to access your Assembly Station via pax spaces and will have to use crew areas. If pax can get lost in pax spaces in full light, you haven't got much chance of navigating through crew areas with only emergency light.

[Heidi13]

Apologies as I forgot to post the link to the final report last night, as some might be interested.

 

http://3kbo302xo3lg2i1rj8450xje-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Costa_Concordia_-_Full_Investigation_Report.pdf

 

As usual it is long winded, but some of the first recommendations are relevant to this discussion with actions taken starting on page 164.

[sanger727]

Why can’t they do this? When the muster drill starts do the same drill they have always done. Have everyone report to their stations and do the same check in they do. But then once you check in instead of having you stay and congregate, they send you back to your cabin to watch the video. And there can be some sort of self check to show the video did play all the way through. Everything can still shut down. The crew will get the same practice of ‘herding’ everyone to their mister. It just avoids congregating everyone in small areas.

[chengkp75]

33 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

Why can’t they do this? When the muster drill starts do the same drill they have always done. Have everyone report to their stations and do the same check in they do. But then once you check in instead of having you stay and congregate, they send you back to your cabin to watch the video. And there can be some sort of self check to show the video did play all the way through. Everything can still shut down. The crew will get the same practice of ‘herding’ everyone to their mister. It just avoids congregating everyone in small areas.

Because, again, dealing with the crowd at the muster station is training for the crew, and should be training for the passengers.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Because, again, dealing with the crowd at the muster station is training for the crew, and should be training for the passengers.

but is it mandatory that they can’t. We aren’t living in the world we ‘should be’ living in. Everything in life has been adjusted to deal with the ‘new normal’ and there has to be a way to have a legal muster drill without violating social distancing.

 

The question the cruise lines are going to have to ask is are we sticking to doing it this way because that’s how it’s always been done or because it can’t legally be done another way.

Edited May 27, 2020 by sanger727

[d9704011]

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

The question the cruise lines are going to have to ask is are we sticking to doing it this way because that’s how it’s always been done or because it can’t legally be done another way.

I think that’s somewhat of a false choice.  The real question is.... can cruises be conducted where the safety and security of the passengers, crew and ship can be reasonably assured?  Coronavirus is not the issue here, it’s fire, collision, groundings, etc.... all the stuff that’s been happening on ships as long as things were out there and the need for (minimal) preparation, training and practice learned over the years.

Edited May 27, 2020 by d9704011

[sanger727]

18 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

I think that’s somewhat of a false choice.  The real question is.... can cruises be conducted where the safety and security of the passengers, crew and ship can be reasonably assured?  Coronavirus is not the issue here, it’s fire, collision, groundings, etc.... all the stuff that’s been happening on ships as long as things were out there and the need for (minimal) preparation, training and practice learned over the years.

 

And minimal is the right word. I"m sorry, I don't buy the argument that the muster drill provides training for passengers or crews for an emergency. I'm a first responder, we train for emergencies often. It's incredibly difficult to create a realistic stressful environment in a training situation. We try to do it in a number of ways. Sometimes they have us run an obstacle course prior to going into a scenario to get your heart rate and breathing up. Sometimes they have the lights off with sirens and flashing lights going and sounds of screaming and gunshots playing in the background. Sometimes they shoot at us with these pellets that actually hurt. But there is always an element of surprise. 

 

Announcing as people board the ship that there is a muster drill at 3. And then at 2:30 people are thinking "oh, I better go to my room and drop off my bag so I can figure out where my muster station is. and at 2:55 people are staring to look for the signs to find out where to go. And between 3 and 3:15 people casually make their way to the muster station and get checked in so they can sit in a theater and watch a safety video is not training for an emergency. It communicates to people where their muster station is and gives basic safety information. That is ALL it is. If you want an actual emergency drill, have an unannounced drill at 3 am and see how well the passengers and crew do with that. 

[d9704011]

You don’t have unannounced muster drills.  Just imagine the total confusion and panic... absolutely nothing will be learned.  At least with the 3:00 pm drill people will make their way to the muster station, maybe educate themselves if they pay any attention and have an opportunity to think about the things they may do if there is a real emergency.  

 

BTW, I was a deck officer for a number of years so have some perspective in addition to the passenger perspective.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

It's incredibly difficult to create a realistic stressful environment in a training situation.

I am in total agreement with this, but purposely making the situation less realistic is not the solution.

 

13 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

And between 3 and 3:15 people casually make their way to the muster station and get checked in so they can sit in a theater and watch a safety video is not training for an emergency.

And, here's the training part.  You tell passengers that anyone late to muster will either be fined or disembarked.  That takes care of the sauntering, and gets people motivated.  I've always thought that the muster drill was insufficiently policed.  And, if the theater is the muster station, then they are exactly where they are supposed to be in any emergency.

 

You're a first responder.  If you are evacuating a building, do you make the people wait and stay 6 feet apart?  Of course not.  Sometimes one safety takes precedence over another safety.  Regardless, you would have to convince the maritime safety experts on the IMO's Maritime Safety Committee, from several nations, that not gathering passengers to teach them basic ship safety is acceptable from a risk standpoint.  An even simpler solution would be to give everyone a mask on embarkation and announce they are required for muster, non-compliance equals disembarkation.

[MBP&O2/O]

I too was a deck officer for many years and have obviously attended many a drill. In the old days they were at times a farce. Folk would roll up to muster stations 15 minutes before the alarm went off. They could have a chat and a fag[emoji4].
This attitude was in the main due to old, old fashioned Masters who worked on the principle that if it ain’t broken don’t fix it!
Then we had a new, younger Captain who casually walked onto the bridge one morning and after ensuring all was safe, he sounded the GA. What a total fiasco. Some people came on to the bridge to see what was happening, some ignored it, and needless to say some complained. One thing was sure that afterwards the Captain gave his somewhat forthright views .... and that sort of fiasco never happened again!
It stood me in good stead later in life when apart from the ‘been there and done it’ I got to wear the tee shirt so to speak.
After leaving the sea I ended up working for the Emergency Services. One of my specialities was crisis management and exercise planning and our exercises were as stressful and realistic as we could make them. The troops loved them!

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I am in total agreement with this, but purposely making the situation less realistic is not the solution.

 

And, here's the training part.  You tell passengers that anyone late to muster will either be fined or disembarked.  That takes care of the sauntering, and gets people motivated.  I've always thought that the muster drill was insufficiently policed.  And, if the theater is the muster station, then they are exactly where they are supposed to be in any emergency.

 

You're a first responder.  If you are evacuating a building, do you make the people wait and stay 6 feet apart?  Of course not.  Sometimes one safety takes precedence over another safety.  Regardless, you would have to convince the maritime safety experts on the IMO's Maritime Safety Committee, from several nations, that not gathering passengers to teach them basic ship safety is acceptable from a risk standpoint.  An even simpler solution would be to give everyone a mask on embarkation and announce they are required for muster, non-compliance equals disembarkation.

 

Well, clearly in a true emergency being injured/dying from the emergency is a greater danger than catching COVID. I'm not suggesting a permanent change but many places and things are changing the way they do things temporarily. If the information that passengers get from muster is practice going to their muster stations and receiving safety information; I think there is probably more than one way to do that. Masks would be an option to IF people wore them; but the number of people on here and in stores that say they won't go in if a mask is required makes me doubt compliance. 

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Well, clearly in a true emergency being injured/dying from the emergency is a greater danger than catching COVID. I'm not suggesting a permanent change but many places and things are changing the way they do things temporarily. If the information that passengers get from muster is practice going to their muster stations and receiving safety information; I think there is probably more than one way to do that. Masks would be an option to IF people wore them; but the number of people on here and in stores that say they won't go in if a mask is required makes me doubt compliance. 

And that would be fine, too, since non-compliance would mean disembarkation for cause, and the cruise fare would be forfeit.  Merely requires additional security officers during muster drill.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, sanger727 said:

but is it mandatory that they can’t. We aren’t living in the world we ‘should be’ living in. Everything in life has been adjusted to deal with the ‘new normal’ and there has to be a way to have a legal muster drill without violating social distancing.

 

The question the cruise lines are going to have to ask is are we sticking to doing it this way because that’s how it’s always been done or because it can’t legally be done another way.

The current practice has evolved over time and was developed by experts in marine safety, with knowledge of human factors, how people respond in an emergency, adult education, etc.

 

The primary focus will always remain as pax and crew safety in the event of any emergency. Issues such as the current virus are secondary.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Heidi13

[sanger727]

33 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

The current practice has evolved over time and was developed by experts in marine safety, with knowledge of human factors, how people respond in an emergency, adult education, etc.

 

The primary focus will always remain as pax and crew safety in the event of any emergency. Issues such as the current virus are secondary.

 

I think you all are missing the point I was making. How it's done may be a "best practice"... or maybe not, in how it's executed, I don't know. I don't believe for a second that any real muster situation will bear ANY resemblance to the muster drill. But best practices can be suspended, and sometimes should be suspended for overarching issues. If there is a .01% chance that you will actually need to muster on a ship for a real emergency compared to a 5% chance of covid spreading in a muster drill and the ship getting quarantined and the industry getting shut down again... those are relevant factors that I believe the cruise line will take into account. I read on another thread that royal Caribbean trade marked "e-muster" so clearly they are considering changing things. 

 

The standpoint I was approaching it from that I believe they will approach it from is what is the legal requirements of a muster. Is it get your life jacket on and go to the lifeboat? Nope, we don't do that... Is it go to your muster station when you are called to? Probably at least in part, and that can be done... Is it get safety information? Definitely, and that can be done... is it mandatory for those two things to happen at the same place and the same time? I don't know.

Edited May 27, 2020 by sanger727

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

And minimal is the right word. I"m sorry, I don't buy the argument that the muster drill provides training for passengers or crews for an emergency. I'm a first responder, we train for emergencies often. It's incredibly difficult to create a realistic stressful environment in a training situation. We try to do it in a number of ways. Sometimes they have us run an obstacle course prior to going into a scenario to get your heart rate and breathing up. Sometimes they have the lights off with sirens and flashing lights going and sounds of screaming and gunshots playing in the background. Sometimes they shoot at us with these pellets that actually hurt. But there is always an element of surprise. 

 

Announcing as people board the ship that there is a muster drill at 3. And then at 2:30 people are thinking "oh, I better go to my room and drop off my bag so I can figure out where my muster station is. and at 2:55 people are staring to look for the signs to find out where to go. And between 3 and 3:15 people casually make their way to the muster station and get checked in so they can sit in a theater and watch a safety video is not training for an emergency. It communicates to people where their muster station is and gives basic safety information. That is ALL it is. If you want an actual emergency drill, have an unannounced drill at 3 am and see how well the passengers and crew do with that. 

 

As a first responder shore-side, it has few similarities with respect to procedures on ships. I have worked closely with local fire departments on possibly providing assistance, if required in port aboard the ship and even when I managed a shipyard. They are very reluctant to come aboard the ship, as our fire-fighting technique is completely different. Our command and control is considerably more complex, and we also have additional tasks suck as navigating, preparing LSA, maintaining stability, etc.

 

With respect to the Muster Drill, it is not an in depth emergency training exercise, primarily based on the experience level of the participants (pax). When you are developing complex and unannounced drills/training, the participants and fully trained and experienced. To maximise the training benefit, the complexity of the drill must be commensurate with the knowledge and experience of the participants. If you tried a complex and unannounced drill with new trainees, it would most likely end in chaos, with no learning gained. When conducting risk analysis, their is no benefit from conducting a pax muster at 03:00 and many believe it could be counter-productive in the event of a real emergency.

 

It is the same on a ship, we are dealing with untrained passengers, so the drill must be relevant for their level of experience and address human factors on how people react in an emergency. Yes, we actually conduct computerised modelling of human response. Many studies have shown that having them go to the Assembly Station, provides the best benefit. I agree with the Chief that we need to put some teeth into the process and disembark no shows and those that disrupt the proceedings, with no refund.

 

As a Master, I had extensive latitude on when to sound GES in the event of an emergency. Personally, my thoughts were to muster the pax early, before the situation became critical. By going early, hopefully the conditions replicated the conditions during the drill. I note that all my ships had internal Assembly Stations, so pax could remain comfortable. 

 

Unfortunately, at sea you can always experience an extreme situation, but for untrained passengers, no level of Muster Drill will adequately prepare them for an extreme situation. So again, based on risk analysis, the marine experts at IMO have developed a level of familiarisation for passengers that provides some training and ensures their safety during the training. Once we get them to the Assembly Stations they are more easily managed by the crew.

 

As a first responder, you no doubt are aware of the planning phase of drills in that we must ensure the safety of all participants when engaging in realistic training, if planning a pax muster at 03:00 using only Emergency Lights, I could not develop a plan to mitigate injuries. However, in the event of a real emergency, we operate to different standards and the crew are trained to respond accordingly.