EU Considering Travel Ban on US Citizens

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, geocruiser said:

Let not forget the mask wearers who wear them under their nose. (some may have too, can't breath) but others.???

Stores have signs that say due to state and local laws you cannot enter without a mask.  And then I see people who not only do not have their nose covered, but also their mouth uncovered. Yes, they have them around their chins.

[KirkNC]

37 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Stores have signs that say due to state and local laws you cannot enter without a mask.  And then I see people who not only do not have their nose covered, but also their mouth uncovered. Yes, they have them around their chins.

Heck we see them with no mask in sight.

[iancal]

There is really no point in a discussion about what is happening with covid.  Time will provide the answer.

 

The next few weeks will take it's toll and I believe this is where our thoughts should be on those who are impacted, and will be impacted.

 

One thing for certain, covid will not be defeated by a haphazard approach with cities, counties and states all pulling in different directions.  Too much movement for that.  It will need to be the same levels of determination and co-ordination that have been present in other nations and other leaders.

Edited June 24, 2020 by iancal

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, KirkNC said:

Heck we see them with no mask in sight.

LOL, we went for a walk today and saw someone with a mask hanging from one of his ears. One hand had held a lit cigarette while the other held his cell phone.

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, fatcat04 said:

Are you just trolling now? I don't think you even looked at the graphs. I found them very informative and I hardly consider myself a radical anything. It's numbers complied from reputable medical sources and simply organized in an easy to access package. How can verified numbers be "fake news?"

 

edit: I don't usually read the text involved. I just like the raw numbers. Maybe their commentary is offensive to some? I don't know.

 

Exactly. My motto is -- read everything (multiple sources) and make up my own mind. I don't slavishly follow what anyone tells me, I don't accept an easy answer, and I don't believe that everyone is out to dupe me or hide "the real truth".

 

Common sense should tell us that there simply cannot be as many "conspiracy theories", cover-ups and out-and-out lies as certain media outlets would have us think. Also, people who are able to understand that everything is not "black and white" -- that knowledge is subtle and not easily summed up in a 30-second news bite -- have a better chance of getting something close to a true picture of how things stand.

 

Unfortunately, critical thinking is something that does not seem to be often taught -- or often learned.

[mnocket]

9 hours ago, rafinmd said:

Actually, I'm not sure that's really possible.  They may plan on it but it's contrary to our DNA and I think enforcement would be a massive challenge (except for Alaska and Hawaii where there's more chance for border control).  They say "Americans will always do the right thing--after we've exhausted all the other possibilities".  I think we're just about at that point,

 

At least I hope so.

 

Roy

It's not meant to be an enforceable policy - it's meant to be a sound bite on the news to make it look like the politicians are doing something.   In US politics, appearances are more important than real action. (forgive me for mentioning politics, but it's the only explanation for an unenforceable policy.)

[fatcat04]

23 hours ago, RJ2002 said:

Of course, they themselves may be facing the same situation as parts of the US as they more widely reopen activities.

 

Time will tell. 

 

 

Yes, this came across my news feed this am.

 

Coronavirus panic in EUROPE as cases surge after lockdown eased - 30 states on ALERT

EUROPE is bracing itself for a second wave of coronavirus after 30 countries were put on alert following a surge in COVID-19 cases.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1300892/coronavirus-europe-second-wave-uk-EU-cases-germany-covid19-latest-WHO

 

[crusinbanjo]

5 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Yes, this came across my news feed this am.

 

Coronavirus panic in EUROPE as cases surge after lockdown eased - 30 states on ALERT

EUROPE is bracing itself for a second wave of coronavirus after 30 countries were put on alert following a surge in COVID-19 cases.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1300892/coronavirus-europe-second-wave-uk-EU-cases-germany-covid19-latest-WHO

 

Sad news.

 

[Wonderingabout]

17 hours ago, iancal said:

There is really no point in a discussion about what is happening with covid.  Time will provide the answer.

 

The next few weeks will take it's toll and I believe this is where our thoughts should be on those who are impacted, and will be impacted.

 

One thing for certain, covid will not be defeated by a haphazard approach with cities, counties and states all pulling in different directions.  Too much movement for that.  It will need to be the same levels of determination and co-ordination that have been present in other nations and other leaders.

I must admit that everything related to this Virus and our reaction to it is contradictory by each individual at the same time.  I obviously do not have the magic bullet for how to handle the Virus.  Certainly science is confused.   Should we let it run wild and go for herd immunity as long as the hospitals do not get overwhelmed which seems to have been the idea at the beginning or should we quarantine everybody as if they are under house arrest except without the tracking electronic ankle bracelets until the virus goes away or a vaccine is found.  

 

Even politics have become self contradictory.  Its not just that if the US enacts travel restrictions to foreign countries it is xenophobic while a the same time if other countries enact similar travel restrictions it is wise policy.  Or if Florida restricts travel from New York it is bad but if New York restricts travel from Florida it is good or do I have that backwards?

 

But people who have argued for the past three years that the President is an autocrat now are arguing that the problem with handling the Virus in the U.S is that we lack an autocrat in the White House who will tell us what to do and enforce that we do it.

 

I must admit to some confusion.  It is as though we are thinking with our emotions and will not let the lack of consistency  in our logic get in the way of our opinions.

 

[AncientWanderer]

44 minutes ago, Wonderingabout said:

I must admit that everything related to this Virus and our reaction to it is contradictory by each individual at the same time.  I obviously do not have the magic bullet for how to handle the Virus.  Certainly science is confused.   Should we let it run wild and go for herd immunity as long as the hospitals do not get overwhelmed which seems to have been the idea at the beginning or should we quarantine everybody as if they are under house arrest except without the tracking electronic ankle bracelets until the virus goes away or a vaccine is found.  

 

Even politics have become self contradictory.  Its not just that if the US enacts travel restrictions to foreign countries it is xenophobic while a the same time if other countries enact similar travel restrictions it is wise policy.  Or if Florida restricts travel from New York it is bad but if New York restricts travel from Florida it is good or do I have that backwards?

 

But people who have argued for the past three years that the President is an autocrat now are arguing that the problem with handling the Virus in the U.S is that we lack an autocrat in the White House who will tell us what to do and enforce that we do it.

 

I must admit to some confusion.  It is as though we are thinking with our emotions and will not let the lack of consistency  in our logic get in the way of our opinions.

 

 

 

The part I bolded really caught my eye.  I remember early on in the pandemic watching a press conference and the President made some comment about he himself having authority to make ultimate decisions, overriding the governors.  The press went wild on this, of course, calling him a dictator.

 

I was just so bummed out when within days it was clear that he reversed course and threw it back on the governors -- me figuring that a lack of cohesive plan would be really detrimental to the country -- which it has been.  

 

I'm sorry if this post is too political.  I just wish that the citizens of the US would have worked together better on this pandemic -- no matter what their opinion of the rights of states versus a strong federal government.   We really need to work together if we want to tame this beast of a virus.  What the heck ever happened to teamwork?  

[DFD1]

5 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

 

The part I bolded really caught my eye.  I remember early on in the pandemic watching a press conference and the President made some comment about he himself having authority to make ultimate decisions, overriding the governors.  The press went wild on this, of course, calling him a dictator.

 

I was just so bummed out when within days it was clear that he reversed course and threw it back on the governors -- me figuring that a lack of cohesive plan would be really detrimental to the country -- which it has been.  

 

I'm sorry if this post is too political.  I just wish that the citizens of the US would have worked together better on this pandemic -- no matter what their opinion of the rights of states versus a strong federal government.   We really need to work together if we want to tame this beast of a virus.  What the heck ever happened to teamwork?  

 

Sadly, I am afraid you are dreaming. I wish it too, but it is not to be...not at this time anyway.

[kazu]

2 hours ago, DFD1 said:

 

I was just so bummed out when within days it was clear that he reversed course and threw it back on the governors -- me figuring that a lack of cohesive plan would be really detrimental to the country -- which it has been.

 

I am an outsider looking in, horrified at what has happened in a country that should have controlled this quickly IF they had listened to scientists.

 

Test, contact, quarantine and use precaution (6’ and masks).

 

I watch news and while some might want to call news fake, most is not.  I think what I watch is pretty reliable and factual.

Two things have stood out - you have a leader who is not a leader.  He wanted to take power from the governors when they needed support and then withdrew it when they needed testing and PPE and said “not our problem”.

 

He hasn’t come out to say wear a mask and protect those when you can’t social/physical distance so those that follow him are doing it and spreading the virus.  Most leaders have including our Prime Minister. In many of our stores and physiotherapist clinics, hair salons, dentist, you can’t enter if you don’t wear a mask.

 

If he would just step up to the plate and do what the scientists have recommended and proven to work in other countries, the death toll in the United States would not be what it is.  But he needs to set the tone and back up the scientists and encourage people and his followers to wear a mask.

I don’t mean to be political but the message has to unifying, not autocratic.  

I wish all our American friends the best of luck in their struggles and I hope they can stay safe. ❤️ We are doing the best to do the same up here.  😉 

[rafinmd]

3 hours ago, Wonderingabout said:

I must admit that everything related to this Virus and our reaction to it is contradictory by each individual at the same time.  I obviously do not have the magic bullet for how to handle the Virus.  Certainly science is confused.   Should we let it run wild and go for herd immunity as long as the hospitals do not get overwhelmed which seems to have been the idea at the beginning or should we quarantine everybody as if they are under house arrest except without the tracking electronic ankle bracelets until the virus goes away or a vaccine is found.  

 

Even politics have become self contradictory.  Its not just that if the US enacts travel restrictions to foreign countries it is xenophobic while a the same time if other countries enact similar travel restrictions it is wise policy.  Or if Florida restricts travel from New York it is bad but if New York restricts travel from Florida it is good or do I have that backwards?

 

But people who have argued for the past three years that the President is an autocrat now are arguing that the problem with handling the Virus in the U.S is that we lack an autocrat in the White House who will tell us what to do and enforce that we do it.

 

I must admit to some confusion.  It is as though we are thinking with our emotions and will not let the lack of consistency  in our logic get in the way of our opinions.

 

Science has no magic.  It started out knowing NOTHING about this virus and the early steps did lack some consistency.  The beauty of science is the combination of a number of factors, continual testing, peer review,  and re-evaluation as necessary (remember when Pluto was a planet).  The virus is also mutating and science must adapt as that happens.  Finally, the context often changes.  First, we were told that masks were a bad idea, but that was in response to people protecting themselves with masks and that isn’t the way they work.  Dr Faucci could have chosen his words better but he was speaking at a time when we were talking about PPE grade masks and they were in short supply and needed by our first responders.

 

We don’t need an autocrat.  We need a LEADER.  A few of the qualities I see in a good leader:

1. Surround one’s self with the best people and listen to them.
2. Take charge where necessary.
3. Delegate wisely and provide people you delegate to as much support as possible.
4. Set a good example.

The national situation to me looks a quite chaotic here rapidly spiking cases and even some of the governors of the most open states realizing a need to put on the brakes.  

 

I live in a state (Maryland) where the chief executive comes from the same party as our national chief executive (not my party) and he is a LEADER.  While Covid-19 is surging in the country things here is how things are going in Maryland.  I’ll start with a few comparisons of the last week with the corresponding week in April:
Deaths 344 April 18-24, 115 June 18-24
New cases 5458 to 2458
Tests 18295 to 48803
Positive test ratio 23% to 5%

I only have hospital data going back to May 2 but then there were 1635 hospitalized with 565 in the ICU.  It has been declining pretty steadily for at least a month and today it is 511 with 209 ICU.

 

What kind of LEADER can we get from someone of the same party as his national counterpart:

We are lagging slightly behind some other states in re-opening but really not far behind.  The chief difference is that facial coverings are pretty much required everywhere.  I think it has made a huge difference for a relatively small sacrifice and suspect that the conscious act of covering up makes us a bit more conscious of social distancing.

1. Surround one’s self with the best people and listen to them.  He has established a panel of scientists, business leaders, and medical personnel.  I think this happens more in the background than in public but it certainly seems to be happening.
2. Take charge where necessary.  He has takes some pretty aggressive executive orders but always explains the science and the data behind his decisions.
3. Delegate wisely and provide people you delegate to as much support as possible.  As we reopen he has allowed each county executive/mayor to delay or modify their reopening schedule according to local conditions.
4. Set a good example.  At the height of our bout he was doing daily press updates.  At  EVERY presentation he walked up to the podium with a mask on, taking it off only while actively speaking (necessary for a sign interpreter).  As soon as he finished speaking he put it back on to leave the podium and his department heads did the same thing.  When he authorized restaurants to return to indoor seating he added that as a cancer survivor he would not be doing it himself for some time.

 

Common sense does not need to be political.  2 executives from the same party but I find one a much better LEADER than the other.

 

I think travel restrictions are largely window dressing but they may have some value where the area imposing the restrictions is less affected than the place restricted, and the Tri-state area has worked very hard to get it’s outbreak under control.  I am however a bit baffled by California was not also restricted.

 

Roy

 

[iancal]

I believe one of the key issues is the ability to listen to experts, comprehend, and place your constituents at the forefront of every word, every decision, every action that you take.   It is not about you.....it is about the people one is supposed to lead and to represent.

 

Seems to me this is lacking in spades in various levels, various areas and from the very top down.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, rafinmd said:

We don’t need an autocrat.  We need a LEADER.  A few of the qualities I see in a good leader:

1. Surround one’s self with the best people and listen to them.
2. Take charge where necessary.
3. Delegate wisely and provide people you delegate to as much support as possible.
4. Set a good example.

 

 

 

Some really great points in your post. 

 

I agree with you regarding a leader --- and would like to add one more: a leader doesn't need to be an autocrat or a doormat. A leader should be able to bring people together and facilitate consensus, cooperation, and collaboration.

 

We've always had a strong two-party system in the US, yet we have been able to put partisanship aside at times of crisis and act for the common good of our country. 

 

Why couldn't a strong leader (President) convene a group of the governors and work TOGETHER with them?  It doesn't have to be one or the other. In fact, it shouldn't be.

[Stratheden]

I don't know what the overall plan for the way Covid was handled in the US but I am just doing a comparison between two areas with a similar population.  

 

I live in a state in Australia with a population of 6.3million.  We have had 1917 cases overall, with 20 deaths.  

 

We have just had some of our privileges taken back as we have had a spike in cases this past week.  We have had cases in the double figures.  A lot of the cases are from returning Australians who are in 2 weeks isolation in hotels.  They are from 3rd world countries.  There are also a few suburbs who have been asked to please stay home as they seem to be gathering in large family groups and ignoring the rules). We cannot have more than 5 visitors in our home at any one time.  (Our grand daughter's 13th birthday party on Sunday is being held in shifts of 5 people at a time.  My DIL will be serving lunch 3 or 4 times on Sunday)

 

I just checked with Massachusetts figures.  Similar population 6.7 million. Total confirmed cases 102,922.  Total deaths. 7776.   They have had more deaths today than we have had in total.

 

What is going on in the US that is so different from other first world countries. 

 

[Sir PMP]

covid deaths vs population in %: Maryland 0.00051

                                                           Florida 0.00015

[rafinmd]

1 minute ago, Sir PMP said:

covid deaths vs population in %: Maryland 0.00051

                                                           Florida 0.00015

I trust Maryland figures.

 

Roy

[cat shepard]

25 minutes ago, Sir PMP said:

covid deaths vs population in %: Maryland 0.00051

                                                           Florida 0.00015

 

You might want to pick another state besides Florida. Deaths are not counted accurately, we had major difficulties getting testing sites until mid to late May. And then some of our testing companies had major problems.

 

And then you need to factor in that the governor fired the scientist who built the reporting “dashboard” because she was insubordinate. Her boss wanted her not to report certain deaths as COVID deaths, even though they were COVID deaths. And she wanted to report accurate numbers because she is a scientist.  She is now privately funded and rebuilding a dashboard that reports the truth. Just give her some time. 
 

 

[iancal]

stratheden.....LEADERSHIP is what not has been going on.

Edited June 26, 2020 by iancal

[HaveWeMetYet]

36 minutes ago, Stratheden said:

I don't know what the overall plan for the way Covid was handled in the US but I am just doing a comparison between two areas with a similar population.  

 

I live in a state in Australia with a population of 6.3million.  We have had 1917 cases overall, with 20 deaths.  

 

We have just had some of our privileges taken back as we have had a spike in cases this past week.  We have had cases in the double figures.  A lot of the cases are from returning Australians who are in 2 weeks isolation in hotels.  They are from 3rd world countries.  There are also a few suburbs who have been asked to please stay home as they seem to be gathering in large family groups and ignoring the rules). We cannot have more than 5 visitors in our home at any one time.  (Our grand daughter's 13th birthday party on Sunday is being held in shifts of 5 people at a time.  My DIL will be serving lunch 3 or 4 times on Sunday)

 

I just checked with Massachusetts figures.  Similar population 6.7 million. Total confirmed cases 102,922.  Total deaths. 7776.   They have had more deaths today than we have had in total.

 

What is going on in the US that is so different from other first world countries. 

 

I wonder if people in Southeast Asia into the South Pacific have some sort of higher immunity. The numbers are really low especially in the densely populated cities of SE Asia.

Europe, North America, South America, and the Middle East all are fairly similar. High deaths in dense cities with mass transit.

A slow and later rise in less populated areas.

Just wondering, I have not read anything that supports it.

[Sir PMP]

11 minutes ago, cat shepard said:

 

You might want to pick another state besides Florida. Deaths are not counted accurately, we had major difficulties getting testing sites until mid to late May. And then some of our testing companies had major problems.

 

And then you need to factor in that the governor fired the scientist who built the reporting “dashboard” because she was insubordinate. Her boss wanted her not to report certain deaths as COVID deaths, even though they were COVID deaths. And she wanted to report accurate numbers because she is a scientist.  She is now privately funded and rebuilding a dashboard that reports the truth. Just give her some time. 
 

 

Arizona:0.00020

Texas:0.00008

[fatcat04]

@StrathedenI can't speak out of direct knowledge about Massachusetts as I don't live there but here are some numbers. Their average age of Covid fatality is 81 and 98% of those that died had underlying health conditions. Of the 7963 deaths, 5023 (63%) were in nursing homes or long term care facilities. You will find those kinds of nursing home percentages in a few hard hit places and some even less densely populated places outside the Northeast. Nursing home deaths have been a huge issue in many places. I think they are now saying 25% of US deaths have been patients in long term care facilities and nursing homes. Really make me want to keep my very senior but active and feisty momma home as long as humanly possible.

 

My own home state of Tennessee as of today..

Population:  approx 7 million

Tests: 727,268

Positives: 44,202

Recovered: 25,280

Deaths: 567

Nursing Home deaths: 142 (25%)

 

Numbers for counties with 500,000+ population:

Co names and city/Cases/Positive tests/Negative tests/Recovered/Deaths

Shelby (Memphis)      8,643,  10,383,  113,047,  5,900,  175

Davidson (Nashville)   8,258,  9,767,  64,945 ,  5,597, 103

 

Death rate is presently at 1.3% of positives and .0081% of the general population of the state.

 

In my county Davidson, the average age of those who have died is 72, with an age range of 41-101, most with underlying health conditions.

 

Our local health department and our state give daily press conferences and send out all the new stats every single day. I have been tracking them for months. Our local health department releases heat maps that keep track of hot spots in our county and they have a very good contact tracing program.

 

We are having a surge here in certain parts of town. I am not surprised as things have been slowly opening up and we had anticipated a surge in cases. Most cases have been in the 20-40 age groups. We did have 10k plus folks march in protest in Nashville a couple weeks back and several days of protests that had at least 1000 participants so.. yeah maybe that might have also contributed to it to some degree. The mayor encouraged everyone who attended a protest to go get tested as testing is free and open to anyone. He attended one and he got tested.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by fatcat04

[HAL4NOW]

2 hours ago, cat shepard said:

You might want to pick another state besides Florida. Deaths are not counted accurately, we had major difficulties getting testing sites until mid to late May. And then some of our testing companies had major problems.

 

Inaccurate counting methods is one problem that crosses state lines, just like the virus. I believe some states have used methods that lend to overcounting and other states have used methods that lend to undercounting. Even within states, each county, each hospital, each local health department--they all seem to use differing criteria to choose who is designated a covid-19 individual. 

Recently Washington State removed seven individuals from the covid-19 death category (two homicides, three suicides, and 2 overdoses). To compare various jurisdictions is only as helpful as the underlying data; and much of that is not based on the same science.

[npcl]

9 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

 

The part I bolded really caught my eye.  I remember early on in the pandemic watching a press conference and the President made some comment about he himself having authority to make ultimate decisions, overriding the governors.  The press went wild on this, of course, calling him a dictator.

 

I was just so bummed out when within days it was clear that he reversed course and threw it back on the governors -- me figuring that a lack of cohesive plan would be really detrimental to the country -- which it has been.  

 

I'm sorry if this post is too political.  I just wish that the citizens of the US would have worked together better on this pandemic -- no matter what their opinion of the rights of states versus a strong federal government.   We really need to work together if we want to tame this beast of a virus.  What the heck ever happened to teamwork?  

unfortunately the President does not have the power to dictate health policy to the states. The CDC enforcement authority is limited to the national borders, and state lines. It can only advise the states.

 

The feds can supply money and equipment, they can approve drugs and medical equipment, but cannot direct state public health actions.

 

Of course even without enforcement ability backing the CDC recommendations could have had a major impact