Class action lawsuit filed against HAL alleges COVID negligence

[cruisemom42]

I've just seen this mentioned on another forum:

 

https://www.classaction.org/news/holland-america-carnival-negligently-exposed-ms-zaandam-passengers-to-covid-19-class-action-alleges

 

I'm no legal titan but at the time it happened this seemed to be one of the incidents likely to lead to such claims. Given all that has been published in interviews (including with staff members) on this cruise that seem to confirm HAL initially was not taking the threat very seriously, as well as the deaths on board, I wonder what the cruise line's position will be....

 

 

[Aquahound]

4 dead and over a hundred sick...it shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone.

 

Although, I'm not sure this meets the definition of a class-action.   The complaint lists specific incidents occurring to the 2 plaintiffs.  

[navybankerteacher]

It sounds like an ambulance-chasing play by some whiplash lawyers - who are trying to upgrade their case.

[cruisemom42]

3 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It sounds like an ambulance-chasing play by some whiplash lawyers - who are trying to upgrade their case.

 

Not sure I would agree. It will be interesting to see what happens, at the least. HAL did tell passengers that they would institute additional health screening on boarding -- which they did not. And having read numerous published sources about that cruise, I am not so sure that it would be difficult to prove the cruise line was negligent.

 

But again, I am no lawyer and have only read information that is publicly available.

[navybankerteacher]

See Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 23.

[cruisemom42]

Sorry, not that interested in a legal education. 

[navybankerteacher]

A straightforward definition hardly qualifies as an education.  

[Lois R]

Hi Cynthia, I read a couple who sailed Eclipse back in Feb/March and they are suing them too..............

(It is a Celebrity ship).

[cruisemom42]

53 minutes ago, Lois R said:

Hi Cynthia, I read a couple who sailed Eclipse back in Feb/March and they are suing them too..............

(It is a Celebrity ship).

 

I hadn't heard about that one -- I'll look it up.

 

I imagine Princess may be in for a few lawsuits as well, in coming days....

[Essiesmom]

I believe there is/are lawsuits against Princess in Australia.  EM

[ilikeanswers]

I have read many reports on Zaandam and it does sound like HAL made some pretty big mistakes. It still baffles me that Punta Arenas had reported cases of COVID19 by the time the ship arrived yet they still let passengers off to wonder the town😳. 

[VMax1700]

13 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

HAL initially was not taking the threat very seriously

 

A lot of people are still are not taking it seriously. Posts to this forum and tweets from various sources would tend to confirm the continued denial by certain elements even though it is now four months since hitting Europe/USA and various other places.

[Lois R]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I hadn't heard about that one -- I'll look it up.

 

I imagine Princess may be in for a few lawsuits as well, in coming days....

Good morning.......here is a link:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/498596-celebrity-cruises-sued-for-alleged-negligence-by-passenger-who-got

[K32682]

The cruise lines don't get a free pass.  They need to be held to account for any actions and oversights that may have  contributed to the deaths of passengers or crew for whom they are responsible. 

 

Norwegian agents were down playing the virus with false claims to prevent cancellations.  HAL and Princess thought March 7th (Zaandam) and 5th (Coral Princess) respectively were good dates to embark on a month long cruises weeks after the Diamond Princess went into quarantine and as nations were beginning to impose travel restrictions. 

 

The conduct of the cruise lines suggests they put dollars ahead of passenger safety and people died as a result. It is entirely appropriate they get brought into a courtroom to explain themselves. 

[JRG]

On 6/28/2020 at 3:16 PM, navybankerteacher said:

See Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 23

 

On 6/28/2020 at 3:19 PM, cruisemom42 said:

Sorry, not that interested in a legal education

 

See definition of Force Majeure?

[K32682]

6 hours ago, JRG said:

See definition of Force Majeure?

Cruise lines will still wooing passengers with lies, denying refunds and setting sail on month-long cruises in early March weeks after the Diamond Princess went into quarantine.  "Force Majeure" is a weak defense when the "Force" was known about over a month in advance.  

[BlueRiband]

Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases in the US on March 9th:  “If you are a healthy young person, there is no reason if you want to go on a cruise ship, go on a cruise ship.”

When somebody believes that cruise lines were putting dollars before passenger safety I'm at a loss to understand why they would even consider patronizing such a business.

[Lois R]

HE said that on March 9th?😲certainly doesn't sound like him now...................

[JRG]

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

"Force Majeure" is a weak defense when the "Force" was known about over a month in advance.  

 

Objection your honor,   if the language in the contract includes such a clause,  then Force Majeure applies.

 

Doesn't mean HAL or CCL shouldn't be held responsible for actions that seem questionable, but what else are they going to say in defense of a class action suit.

 

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Lois R said:

HE said that on March 9th?😲certainly doesn't sound like him now...................

Absolutely right, and the cruise lines just like him did not have the same information then that they have now. That is something that the ambulance chasers will have to get around.

[cruisemom42]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Absolutely right, and the cruise lines just like him did not have the same information then that they have now. That is something that the ambulance chasers will have to get around.

 

Two thoughts on the above:

 

First, people forget to mention (when mentioning that Fauci quote) that he first came out and said that people should not take cruises. Presumably after pressure from the administration, Fauci came back and said what everyone now quotes about healthy young people taking a cruise -- neglecting, however, to mention the full quote that runs something like this:

 

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

Now I expect that cruise lines know their own demographics, and anyone thinking that HAL was not aware that a lengthy cruise around South America in January would consist mostly of "elderly persons, some with underlying conditions" is fooling themselves.

 

Also, to suggest HAL was not aware of the dangers posed by the virus a full month after the quarantine of Diamond Princess had started (and after coronavirus was declared a global emergency by WHO) is avoiding the obvious:  HAL and Princess are -- or were at that time -- part of the same corporate group at Carnival. I cannot imagine that HAL executives were not excruciatingly aware of what was going on with Princess (Diamond first, then Grand).  HAL also had their own narrow 'escape' with the Westerdam cruise that eventually ended in Cambodia when no other Asian ports would allow them -- and this was also a month BEFORE Zaandam departed.

 

I think they would have great difficulty proving they were not aware of the potential dangers.

 

 

[ovccruiser]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If your government was allowing people in from covid affected countries and apparently doing little or nothing to stop them, then surely a cruise company will only be lead by the example of governments. Had the governments of the world acted a lot quicker, I am sure this disease would not have been allowed to take hold as it has. I was on a cruise ship in March this year and our last three ports of call were cancelled because of covid. Noro virus can also be deadly to some, Scientists at the Washington University School of Medicine have estimated that the illness is responsible for 200,000 deaths every year worldwide, but we travel ok with that.

[Lois R]

43 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Two thoughts on the above:

 

First, people forget to mention (when mentioning that Fauci quote) that he first came out and said that people should not take cruises. Presumably after pressure from the administration, Fauci came back and said what everyone now quotes about healthy young people taking a cruise -- neglecting, however, to mention the full quote that runs something like this:

 

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

Now I expect that cruise lines know their own demographics, and anyone thinking that HAL was not aware that a lengthy cruise around South America in January would consist mostly of "elderly persons, some with underlying conditions" is fooling themselves.

 

Also, to suggest HAL was not aware of the dangers posed by the virus a full month after the quarantine of Diamond Princess had started (and after coronavirus was declared a global emergency by WHO) is avoiding the obvious:  HAL and Princess are -- or were at that time -- part of the same corporate group at Carnival. I cannot imagine that HAL executives were not excruciatingly aware of what was going on with Princess (Diamond first, then Grand).  HAL also had their own narrow 'escape' with the Westerdam cruise that eventually ended in Cambodia when no other Asian ports would allow them -- and this was also a month BEFORE Zaandam departed.

 

I think they would have great difficulty proving they were not aware of the potential dangers.

 

 

Hi, thanks for the reply and posting the rest of what he said.....he had another thing to say today and it does not

look good at all.  Right now we are increasing by 40,000 cases per day.  He said if we don't do more NOW,  he thinks

it will increase to 100,000 per day.😲

[mammajamma2013]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Two thoughts on the above:

 

First, people forget to mention (when mentioning that Fauci quote) that he first came out and said that people should not take cruises. Presumably after pressure from the administration, Fauci came back and said what everyone now quotes about healthy young people taking a cruise -- neglecting, however, to mention the full quote that runs something like this:

 

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

Now I expect that cruise lines know their own demographics, and anyone thinking that HAL was not aware that a lengthy cruise around South America in January would consist mostly of "elderly persons, some with underlying conditions" is fooling themselves.

 

Also, to suggest HAL was not aware of the dangers posed by the virus a full month after the quarantine of Diamond Princess had started (and after coronavirus was declared a global emergency by WHO) is avoiding the obvious:  HAL and Princess are -- or were at that time -- part of the same corporate group at Carnival. I cannot imagine that HAL executives were not excruciatingly aware of what was going on with Princess (Diamond first, then Grand).  HAL also had their own narrow 'escape' with the Westerdam cruise that eventually ended in Cambodia when no other Asian ports would allow them -- and this was also a month BEFORE Zaandam departed.

 

I think they would have great difficulty proving they were not aware of the potential dangers.

 

 

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Two thoughts on the above:

 

First, people forget to mention (when mentioning that Fauci quote) that he first came out and said that people should not take cruises. Presumably after pressure from the administration, Fauci came back and said what everyone now quotes about healthy young people taking a cruise -- neglecting, however, to mention the full quote that runs something like this:

 

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

Now I expect that cruise lines know their own demographics, and anyone thinking that HAL was not aware that a lengthy cruise around South America in January would consist mostly of "elderly persons, some with underlying conditions" is fooling themselves.

 

Also, to suggest HAL was not aware of the dangers posed by the virus a full month after the quarantine of Diamond Princess had started (and after coronavirus was declared a global emergency by WHO) is avoiding the obvious:  HAL and Princess are -- or were at that time -- part of the same corporate group at Carnival. I cannot imagine that HAL executives were not excruciatingly aware of what was going on with Princess (Diamond first, then Grand).  HAL also had their own narrow 'escape' with the Westerdam cruise that eventually ended in Cambodia when no other Asian ports would allow them -- and this was also a month BEFORE Zaandam departed.

 

I think they would have great difficulty proving they were not aware of the potential dangers.

 

 

Please don't think I'm being argumentative, I agree with all you've said. I have to wonder, though, shouldn't individuals also bear some responsibility for putting themselves in that situation? They had they same information available to them that the cruise lines did.

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, mammajamma2013 said:

“I think if you’re a healthy, young person, there’s no reason, if you want to go on a cruise ship, not to go on a cruise ship,” Fauci said. He added, “The fact is that if you have the conditions that I’ve been speaking about … an individual who has an underlying condition, particularly an elderly person that has underlying conditions, I would recommend strongly that they do not go on a cruise ship.”

 

Please don't think I'm being argumentative, I agree with all you've said. I have to wonder, though, shouldn't individuals also bear some responsibility for putting themselves in that situation? They had they same information available to them that the cruise lines did.

 

I absolutely agree with you regarding personal responsibility -- I canceled my Asia cruise on Westerdam myself in mid-February, well before HAL canceled all of the Asian itineraries.  But that does not negate the responsibility of the cruise line, which presumably had access to a great deal more information than the average cruiser, especially at that time. (I happen to be both a travel news junkie and also work in the medical field, so I can't say my level of awareness isn't well above the average at least....)

 

Also, keep in mind that the cruise lines were actively reassuring people that they would be fine, that enhanced health screenings would be done prior to boarding (they weren't), and so on...