Antarctica on Westerdam....in 2022? How?

[TiogaCruiser]

@chengkp75  Do ALL cruise ships get a polar class certificate or only the ones the lines choose?

[wolfie11]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I looked up Silhouette in the DNV database (her class society).  I see that her certificate of class comes due in July of 2021, so that is when any older Polar Class certificate would become invalid, but I don't even see one of the older Polar Class notations in her certificates.  So, I would be very leery of whether this vessel could actually sail to the destinations it is scheduled for.

I looked up the Celebrity Eclipse, which is the ship that sailed in Antarctica this year.  They have a certificate that is valid from March of 2020 to April 2021.  Is it possible they are doing the Polar certificates annually?  Celebrity uses different ships for that run from year to year (was Infinity, then Eclipse, now Silhouette)?

[chengkp75]

46 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

@chengkp75  Do ALL cruise ships get a polar class certificate or only the ones the lines choose?

It is optional.

35 minutes ago, wolfie11 said:

I looked up the Celebrity Eclipse, which is the ship that sailed in Antarctica this year.  They have a certificate that is valid from March of 2020 to April 2021.  Is it possible they are doing the Polar certificates annually?  Celebrity uses different ships for that run from year to year (was Infinity, then Eclipse, now Silhouette)?

The certificate that the Eclipse has is for class "1C", which is a Baltic ice class rating, and does not meet the required new Polar Class "PC-6" that is required for passenger vessels in Arctic waters.

[tupper10]

As far as I can tell from this board the Holland America cruise will not actually go near the Antarctic peninsula - so what will we see?  I ask this because we did do the expedition cruise with Silversea and it was fabulous.    We don't really care about seeing the penguins to be frank but we are more into the scenery and the larger wildlife - the ice bergs, the crackling ice, whales, seals, etc.  We are doing this cruise to see some of this again along with Patagonia. If we have no chance of seeing any of these things please let me know as I think we would then cancel and just do another Alaska cruise when cruising resumes.  We were supposed to go in Jan 2021 but I did not see us being able to safely go on  that one so we re booked for January 2021.  Any help is appreciated.    BTW if you can afford an expedition cruise it is well worth your while, as others have said here,  it is truly the trip of a lifetime. 

[Mandalay1903]

After reading through this very helpful set of posts, and "with eyes wide open", yesterday I booked this cruise for 1/2022. Today I posed the polar certification question to my PCC (the remaining PCCs are now working 32-hour weeks) and she had to forward it to her supervisor to research. I'm interested to see how they respond.

 

Also, I'm attaching for reference the narrative from the online itinerary materials describing the "Antarctica Experience" for this cruise in January 2022. Either the polar certification question needs to be resolved, or the cruise itinerary needs to change significantly.

 

FWIW, we took the Santiago to Rio cruise on the Zaandam last November and loved it. Would definitely go again, but for a cruise with this Antarctic itinerary the certification question needs resolution.  It's a long way off and a lot of other HAL and CCL questions to be resolved first.

 

"In Partnership With AFAR
After a day and a half crossing the Drake Passage, which separates South America from Antarctica, your Holland America ship will arrive at the White Continent. On your Antarctic Expedition you will sail through the bays and islands of the Palmer Archipelago, off the northern tip of the long Antarctic Peninsula, which reaches out toward South America.Encircled in a landscape of snow and ice in every direction, your ship will slowly navigate the iceberg-dotted waters. The surroundings are hauntingly quiet as well, an aspect of the continent that comes as a surprise to many first-time visitors. Along the way, the ship's naturalists will point out the birds—terns, petrels, and gulls—found on the coast and on small islets at stops like Dallmann Bay. As you pass dark, rocky Cuverville Island, you’ll see some of the 6,500 pairs of gentoo penguins that make their home there, the largest known colony in the world. Continuing on to Paradise Harbor, you'll have a chance to observe not only gentoo and chinstrap penguins but possibly humans as well: Both Argentina and Chile have manned research stations here."

[Ken the cruiser]

I remember last year when we were discussing this issue on another CC thread. But, since it was only a discussion, I decided to wait and see if any "drive by" post Jan 2022 Antarctica cruises would actually come to pass. And then low and behold ...

 

Azamara was the first to post one:

https://www.azamara.com/int/voyage/qs21u001/21-night-fjords-antarctica-voyage

 

Then Celebrity:

https://www.celebritycruises.com/itinerary-search?dates=2022-01&destinations=SAMER

 

Then Princess:

https://www.princess.com/cruise-search/details?voyageCode=H202

 

And now HAL:

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/find-a-cruise/S2N22A/W211.html

 

So whatever Ice Class 6 rules are to be "strictly enforced" on Jan 1, 2022, obviously none of the above cruise lines got the memo or they did and there are some loopholes they're exploiting. In any event it seems "drive by" cruises at fairly reasonable prices to Antarctica post Jan 2022 don't seem to be disappearing anytime soon.  

Edited July 7, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[tupper10]

2 hours ago, Mandalay1903 said:

After reading through this very helpful set of posts, and "with eyes wide open", yesterday I booked this cruise for 1/2022. Today I posed the polar certification question to my PCC (the remaining PCCs are now working 32-hour weeks) and she had to forward it to her supervisor to research. I'm interested to see how they respond.

 

Also, I'm attaching for reference the narrative from the online itinerary materials describing the "Antarctica Experience" for this cruise in January 2022. Either the polar certification question needs to be resolved, or the cruise itinerary needs to change significantly.

 

FWIW, we took the Santiago to Rio cruise on the Zaandam last November and loved it. Would definitely go again, but for a cruise with this Antarctic itinerary the certification question needs resolution.  It's a long way off and a lot of other HAL and CCL questions to be resolved first.

 

"In Partnership With AFAR
After a day and a half crossing the Drake Passage, which separates South America from Antarctica, your Holland America ship will arrive at the White Continent. On your Antarctic Expedition you will sail through the bays and islands of the Palmer Archipelago, off the northern tip of the long Antarctic Peninsula, which reaches out toward South America.Encircled in a landscape of snow and ice in every direction, your ship will slowly navigate the iceberg-dotted waters. The surroundings are hauntingly quiet as well, an aspect of the continent that comes as a surprise to many first-time visitors. Along the way, the ship's naturalists will point out the birds—terns, petrels, and gulls—found on the coast and on small islets at stops like Dallmann Bay. As you pass dark, rocky Cuverville Island, you’ll see some of the 6,500 pairs of gentoo penguins that make their home there, the largest known colony in the world. Continuing on to Paradise Harbor, you'll have a chance to observe not only gentoo and chinstrap penguins but possibly humans as well: Both Argentina and Chile have manned research stations here."

 

[tupper10]

Please let us know the answer you get re these cruises. I have a reservation but since it is so far in advance I will keep it for now and cancel if we can't get south of 60 degrees.  

[Mandalay1903]

7 minutes ago, tupper10 said:

Please let us know the answer you get re these cruises. I have a reservation but since it is so far in advance I will keep it for now and cancel if we can't get south of 60 degrees. 

I sure will.  My PCC has been with HAL over 30 years and is really good at follow through, but she did mention that her supervisor would probably need to route it to the Fleet Dept who is fairly busy these days on crew repatriation and probably working with reduced staff.

[KirkNC]

Well since they can't go below 60 degrees you really won't be going to Antartica, you will just be in the waters off of.  HAL and others will intentionally mislead I have no doubt. 

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, Mandalay1903 said:

I sure will.  My PCC has been with HAL over 30 years and is really good at follow through, but she did mention that her supervisor would probably need to route it to the Fleet Dept who is fairly busy these days on crew repatriation and probably working with reduced staff.

 

I will also be very interested in hearing what you find out.

[cruisemom42]

55 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Well since they can't go below 60 degrees you really won't be going to Antartica, you will just be in the waters off of.  HAL and others will intentionally mislead I have no doubt. 

 

I think that is the $64K question though...

 

With so many ships now offering this itinerary in 2022, which does not differ in any detail from what they have offered in previous years (and others have enjoyed and validated) -- has something changed with regard to the regulations?  For example, have they been delayed for an additional year before coming into effect? 

 

OR are we just being played?

 

[Mandalay1903]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

With so many ships now offering this itinerary in 2022, which does not differ in any detail from what they have offered in previous years (and others have enjoyed and validated) -- has something changed with regard to the regulations?  For example, have they been delayed for an additional year before coming into effect? 

 

OR are we just being played?

Great question. I find it hard to believe that HAL, as a top tier cruise line and part of CCL, and other unaffiliated cruise lines (Azamara and Celebrity), would deliberately mislead its guests on a major feature of an itinerary such as this. I also find it hard to believe that these four cruise lines (Azamara, Celebrity, Princess and HAL) would all be making the same mistake of erroneously assuming their certificate is valid and publishing an invalid itinerary.

 

I've seen plenty of times that HAL has made errors describing EXC excursions. That's one of my pet peeves with HAL, but they've been doing better lately IMO. There must be thousands of excursion descriptions that should be described accurately, but itineraries are a different matter. They need to be vetted and approved before they are published.  The cruise is a long ways off; the ships aren't going anywhere anytime soon; and we shall see.

[TiogaCruiser]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I think that is the $64K question though...

 

With so many ships now offering this itinerary in 2022, which does not differ in any detail from what they have offered in previous years (and others have enjoyed and validated) -- has something changed with regard to the regulations?  For example, have they been delayed for an additional year before coming into effect? 

 

OR are we just being played?

 

It sounds at least like some of the ships scheduled to do it in 2021 might not qualify. If so, that information should come out by the time the first sailing happens (assuming the ships sail.) If they sail but are not allowed below 60* in 2021, those scheduled for 2022 will have the answer.

[Turtles06]

6 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I think that is the $64K question though...

 

With so many ships now offering this itinerary in 2022, which does not differ in any detail from what they have offered in previous years (and others have enjoyed and validated) -- has something changed with regard to the regulations?  For example, have they been delayed for an additional year before coming into effect? 

 

OR are we just being played?

 

 

4 hours ago, Mandalay1903 said:

Great question. I find it hard to believe that HAL, as a top tier cruise line and part of CCL, and other unaffiliated cruise lines (Azamara and Celebrity), would deliberately mislead its guests on a major feature of an itinerary such as this. I also find it hard to believe that these four cruise lines (Azamara, Celebrity, Princess and HAL) would all be making the same mistake of erroneously assuming their certificate is valid and publishing an invalid itinerary.

 

The conundrum presented in this thread is quite fascinating. I tend to agree with @Mandalay1903 in that it’s hard to believe that all of these cruise lines have published itineraries that they will not be permitted to sail in key respects, which raises the question posed by @cruisemom42 — has something changed about the new regs (or perhaps is the understanding of them here on CC incorrect? I tend to think not, given the experts). Are all these cruise lines so inept that they don’t know what the rules are, or are they seeking to mislead?  It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I do feel sorry, though, for those, like @cruisemom42, who are interested in these cruises but can’t really plan one without getting the correct answer. I hope those answers are forthcoming soon. 

[cruisemom42]

6 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

 

The conundrum presented in this thread is quite fascinating. I tend to agree with @Mandalay1903 in that it’s hard to believe that all of these cruise lines have published itineraries that they will not be permitted to sail in key respects, which raises the question posed by @cruisemom42 — has something changed about the new regs (or perhaps is the understanding of them here on CC incorrect? I tend to think not, given the experts). Are all these cruise lines so inept that they don’t know what the rules are, or are they seeking to mislead?  It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I do feel sorry, though, for those, like @cruisemom42, who are interested in these cruises but can’t really plan one without getting the correct answer. I hope those answers are forthcoming soon. 

 

Yes, precisely...   At least we have a lot of lead time to figure it out.

 

I will be very interested to hear what HAL has to say and also the other lines offering similar itineraries. At some point I think it will have to be clarified.

 

[Ken the cruiser]

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes, precisely...   At least we have a lot of lead time to figure it out.

 

I will be very interested to hear what HAL has to say and also the other lines offering similar itineraries. At some point I think it will have to be clarified.

 

What’s there to clarify? Seems like the “drive by” cruise lines have made it pretty clear nothing has changed for them. Maybe Seadog-49, who originally posted this “no go” scenario back on March 8, 2019 on a Voyage of the Vikings thread just offered the wrong interpretation. 
 

Maybe the more serious Ice Class 6 restrictions only apply to expedition ships that actually offer land/zodiac excursions at a variety of Antarctica locations. From what I can tell Seabourn is the only major cruise line that has actually built a new ship, Venture, that will take the place of their previous one, Quest, that has always offered shore excursions. Crystal recently built the Endeavor to also start providing expedition cruises to Antarctica, both of which have heavy price tags to partake in their respective sailings. 

 

As a side note, Greenland and Polar Ice Cap cruising destinations were also banned in his original Ice Class 6 interpretation. It will be interesting to see if any of the major cruise lines continue to post itineraries for the summer of 2022 that include those destinations. Doesn’t Voyage of the Vikings go to Greenland?

Edited July 8, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[chengkp75]

Greenland, even north of 60* is exempt from Polar Class regulations.

[Ken the cruiser]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Greenland, even north of 60* is exempt from Polar Class regulations.

Glad to hear that. How about Longyearbien and the Polar Ice Cap?
 

Here’s what Seadog-49 posted on that thread I referenced. Note that Greenland was included where Iceland and some other ports north of the 60 degree parallel weren’t. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Glad to hear that. How about Longyearbien and the Polar Ice Cap?

Sorry, misspoke, it is Iceland that is exempt, due to the Gulf Stream.

 

Here is the map of the north arctic region.  Since Spitsbergen is at 78* north, it is definitely under the new rules, as is the Northwest Passage and all of the polar ice cap.

[cruisemom42]

Here is a written description of the zones impacted by the Polar Code:

 

Only vessels that intend to operate within the Arctic and Antarctic areas as defined in the Polar Code need to comply with the code. The areas are as follows:

 

Arctic: In general north of 60° but limited by a line from Greenland; south at 58° - north of Iceland, southern shore of Jan Mayen - Bjørnøya – Cap Kanin Nos. 

 

Antarctic: South of 60°.

[Two4Sea]

A range of thoughts here:

 

-are we looking at a lack of communication between itinerary planning and the ad writers who are just copying the previous year's text?

 

-we need to reread the SeaDog posts made last year. I think the emphasis was not so much on the Ice Class of the hull as much as on Antarctic relevant bridge abilities, Antarctic environmental concerns and an ability to protect the passengers from the cold when help for an emergency is far away.

 

-the IMO has posted a summary at http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Pages/default.aspx . It does not sound as tough as I had thought when I posted at Seabourn last month. Other than a realistic way to handle immersion suits for a senior clientele the new requirements might not be so hard to accomplish. However look at the sailor demonstrating a suit at 5:30 in the IMO video, can you see granny doing that? This is where the small expedition ships would more readily be able to cope.

 

-and to come full circle, even if the Code can be conformed with, the maps in the current ads clearly show that one would barely be able to see the most northerly Antarctic site, South Georgia Island, on the horizon. The occasional berg bit, seal and bird passing by doesn't make an Antarctic experience for me.

 

Bill

 

 

 

[Despegue]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, misspoke, it is Iceland that is exempt, due to the Gulf Stream.

 

Here is the map of the north arctic region.  Since Spitsbergen is at 78* north, it is definitely under the new rules, as is the Northwest Passage and all of the polar ice cap.

I can affirm that Spitsbergen is no place for a HAL vessel. Even now, in July, the seas are full with icebergs, drifting iceshelves, rough seas, heavy fog and sudden gale-force winds.

same for the Northern areas of Greenland and Nova Zembla. 
also, bear in mind the levels of redundancy required in case of various onboard failures.

Being suited for Polar Operations is not only related to the strength of the hull...

[Mandalay1903]

1 hour ago, Two4Sea said:

-are we looking at a lack of communication between itinerary planning and the ad writers who are just copying the previous year's text?

For my part, yes. I want to know what I'm buying if I'm booking this HAL cruise. They need to describe things accurately, even if it's 18 months out and they have reduced staffing. If they've got an approval or waiver and can travel the itinerary as described, I'm already signed up.  If they're planning to spend 4-5 days hanging around north of 60S hoping for an berg bit or a seal, I'm not all that interested. If they need to change their itinerary because they're not going to go to Antarctica, then we'll see.

[Ken the cruiser]

18 minutes ago, Despegue said:

I can affirm that Spitsbergen is no place for a HAL vessel. Even now, in July, the seas are full with icebergs, drifting iceshelves, rough seas, heavy fog and sudden gale-force winds.

same for the Northern areas of Greenland and Nova Zembla. 
also, bear in mind the levels of redundancy required in case of various onboard failures.

Being suited for Polar Operations is not only related to the strength of the hull...

I could have sworn the HAL Prinsendam went there every summer as well as Princess in either June or July.