Antarctica on Westerdam....in 2022? How?

[bizeesheri]

On 7/4/2020 at 3:51 PM, cruisemom42 said:

I've read for several years now that starting January 1, 2022 the larger cruise ships that do "drive by" Antarctica cruises will no longer be able to offer them. On the strength of this I booked an itinerary for January 2021 on Westerdam thinking it may be my last chance to do this cruise without investing in the hefty cost of the expedition vessels.

 

I'm in same position, booked the Jan2021 thinking it was last time, also going solo, the 2022 prices are 2,000 higher.   I'm ok with a cruise by, not too interested in trying to climb into a kayak or zodiac.   Not a cruise by a couple hundred miles away though.   

[Big Dawg CC]

Looks like Westerdam December 14, 2021 to SA and Antarctica was released this weekend.  Is the consensus then that it will be able to do the normal Antarctica schedule as it will be there December 2021, that is, before new regs take effect? 

[bizeesheri]

I emailed my PCC and got an out of office until 9/1    Providing no other name to contact   😞     

[Mandalay1903]

3 hours ago, Big Dawg CC said:

Looks like Westerdam December 14, 2021 to SA and Antarctica was released this weekend.  Is the consensus then that it will be able to do the normal Antarctica schedule as it will be there December 2021, that is, before new regs take effect? 

 

2 hours ago, bizeesheri said:

I emailed my PCC and got an out of office until 9/1    Providing no other name to contact   😞

Please refer to post #86 in this thread, where my PCC asked her supervisor to contact HAL Fleet Operations on this question on the Westerdam. That said, there are plenty of other people contributing to this thread who have their doubts about the January 2022 sailing. 

 

That said, I booked the January 5, 2022 sailing but am considering changing it to the December 2021 sailing. It's just that I don't really want to be away from home during the holidays.

[tupper10]

I called Holland America about this and essentially I was told that a cruise itinerary could change based on things like the world situation, changes in treaties etc.  Per the person I spoke with, who spoke with a supervisor, as far as they know at this time only, the cruise description is correct but of course that is always subject to change.  In December to be frank there is less to see, the optimum time is January to February so for now we will leave our Jan 2022 as is.  I would hope that  we will be able to find out if we go south of 60 degrees prior to final payment.  I don't feel like sailing around open ocean for 4 days and I would hope Holland America would not do this given the reasons why many of us are booking this cruise.

[cruisemom42]

Has anyone who actually spoke with HAL mentioned the Polar Code requirements by name?  Just curious what the level of awareness is. Unfortunately, nearly every time I've spoken with a rep at HAL (and not just HAL but any mass market line), I've known more detail about the itinerary than they have. It's hard to get to the right person to ask and have a chance at a meaningful response.

Edited July 27, 2020 by cruisemom42

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

Has anyone who actually spoke with HAL mentioned the Polar Code requirements by name?  Just curious what the level of awareness is. Unfortunately, nearly every time I've spoken with a rep at HAL (and not just HAL but any mass market line), I've known more detail about the itinerary than they have. It's hard to get to the right person to ask and have a chance at a meaningful response.

 

 

Few know little and most no nothing.  

[tupper10]

I agree with rkacruiser - essentially the people I spoke with at HAL know nothing at all.  They were not even aware there is 'a treaty'.  I think HAL knows it can change the itinerary re Antarctica if it needs to since that is what the cruise contract says. The price since we booked our January cruise has gone way up so we will keep our current reservation and hope for the best. It we can't go south of 60 degrees we will cancel this cruise prior to final payment.  

[Ken the cruiser]

You all do realize Azamara, Celebrity and Princess also have "drive by" cruises scheduled in 2022? If the Polar Ice Class 6 restrictions applied to ships doing only drive by cruises after Jan 1, 2022, you would think they would not be able to get insurance to cover those cruises when they sail past the 60 degree parallel. 

[foodsvcmgr]

Agreed Ken, this is the point I made a few weeks ago.

Also NCL is selling drive bys in 2022 AND 2023.

I could be wrong, but it is just incomprehensible to me that all these different lines could be unaware of the Polar Code, or intentionally and fraudulently choose to advertise and sell itineraries that they know are disallowed.

There has to be a better answer than that, just proving very difficult to find accurately.

[Mandalay1903]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Has anyone who actually spoke with HAL mentioned the Polar Code requirements by name?

I mentioned the Polar Code requirements by name to my PCC. But when the response came back from Fleet Operations (see post # 86 in this thread) it was a little vague.

[cruisemom42]

5 minutes ago, Mandalay1903 said:

I mentioned the Polar Code requirements by name to my PCC. But when the response came back from Fleet Operations (see post # 86 in this thread) it was a little vague.

 

Yes, I did see that, but as you say it is a bit vague. 

 

I don't want to sound unnecessarily negative, but this is not my first or second go-round with trying to get accurate pre-cruising information from lines when cruising to places where there is likelihood of changes or cancellations. Not just HAL. And I've seen it other times as well. Warning: long stories follow...

 

Celebrity, for example, kept insisting to passengers that a Holy Lands cruise was "on" despite numerous other lines' canceling a few years ago when there were some serious dust-ups in the region -- and not just in Syria. It wasn't until passengers arrived to the ship that they found the infamous "letter on the bed" informing them of a change in itinerary. Almost all of the ports were changed. Most people were initially offered no or very small remuneration, but later were more generous in the face of massive criticism and unhappiness. (One reason passengers were so unhappy is that they paid a premium for a Holy Lands cruise but ended up with essentially what would've been a much cheaper "normal" Med itinerary.) I would foresee something like this being a problem on a cruise where most passengers are cruising primarily to see a bit of Antarctica.

 

Another time my parents and I were booked on two separate cruise lines with almost simultaneous sailings in the Med, and both were scheduled to port within a day or two of each other in Tunisia (two ports). This was after the Arab spring but before the shooting at the Bardo, the mosaics museum in Tunis. Things were a bit iffy. Both my parents and I were frequently on the phone to our respective lines (them with HAL; me with Voyages to Antiquity, a small British line) to determine whether the itineraries would change. VTA could provide me with excellent detailed information from the UK government's travel service (more detailed than what is published online) and reassured me that we would make the port calls; the areas of danger were far to the south. My parents received similar reassurances from HAL not to worry, but absent any real detail.  Turned out that my small ship made both port calls in Tunisia, while my parents got the "letter on the bed" telling them that Tunisia was "too unsafe" for ships to call. ....And yet my ship was, in fact, calling there within 1-2 days of their scheduled timing. Hmmm.

 

HAL also has the additional "out" with this particular itinerary of claiming the weather is simply too bad/rough/windy/foggy to support cruising lower than 60 degrees....

 

Perhaps, like Hurtigruten with their Northern Lights cruises -- on which they offer you a free do-over cruise if you fail to see any northern lights -- HAL should offer us a repeat cruise if they fail to bring us on the described itinerary. 

[Tampa Girl]

On 7/27/2020 at 11:53 AM, Big Dawg CC said:

Looks like Westerdam December 14, 2021 to SA and Antarctica was released this weekend.  Is the consensus then that it will be able to do the normal Antarctica schedule as it will be there December 2021, that is, before new regs take effect? 

 

What are the dates that the ship will be "scenically touring" Antarctica?  Your cruise leaves four days earlier than the Zaandam did in December, 2019.  My recollection is that we left Antarctica on December 29th, so I would think that you would be well north of the 60th parallel by January 1st 2022.

[Big Dawg CC]

7 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

What are the dates that the ship will be "scenically touring" Antarctica?  Your cruise leaves four days earlier than the Zaandam did in December, 2019.  My recollection is that we left Antarctica on December 29th, so I would think that you would be well north of the 60th parallel by January 1st 2022.

THU 23DEC21 Antarctic Experience 6,7,8 8:00am 6:00pm
FRI 24DEC21 Antarctic Experience 6,7,8 8:00am 6:00pm
SAT 25DEC21 Antarctic Experience 6,7,8 8:00am 6:00pm
SUN 26DEC21 Antarctic Experience 6,7,8 8:00am 6:00pm
MON 27DEC21 Sea Day
TUE 28DEC21 Drake Passage and Cape Horn 6

WED 29DEC21 Ushuaia, Argentina 9:00am 3:30pm

[gui218]

We did the Zaandam Buenos Aires to Antarctica to Valapariso Jan 2014.

There were 4 days cruising the Antarctic Archipelago which was Spectacular.

The farthest south Latitude was 65  with Antarctic circle at 66.

The Chile  coastal cruising is similar to Alaska with glaciers to view.

Antarctica was so much more re ice, snow, mountains, glaciers, and wildlife, penguins, seals, birds, fish,  whales etc.

  

 

 

[Ken the cruiser]

2 hours ago, gui218 said:

We did the Zaandam Buenos Aires to Antarctica to Valapariso Jan 2014.

There were 4 days cruising the Antarctic Archipelago which was Spectacular.

The farthest south Latitude was 65  with Antarctic circle at 66.

The Chile  coastal cruising is similar to Alaska with glaciers to view.

Antarctica was so much more re ice, snow, mountains, glaciers, and wildlife, penguins, seals, birds, fish,  whales etc.

I believe the 60 degree parallel is the one mentioned in the Polar Code. 

 

[foodsvcmgr]

And cruise lines continue to advertise drive bys of locations ranging from Elephant Island at 61 degrees, Deception Island at 62 degrees (some potential irony for that destination), thru Schollart Channel at 64 degrees for 2022 and in NCL's case even 2023!

Most of these locations are part of the South Shetland Islands group.

Just speculating if possibly an exemption has been granted for this particular area?

I've already done the 14 day BA - Santiago route, not paying the huge markup for an Antarctic drive by if they have to stay a couple hundred miles from these actual islands and points of interest.

[cruisemom42]

30 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

And cruise lines continue to advertise drive bys of locations ranging from Elephant Island at 61 degrees, Deception Island at 62 degrees (some potential irony for that destination), thru Schollart Channel at 64 degrees for 2022 and in NCL's case even 2023!

Most of these locations are part of the South Shetland Islands group.

Just speculating if possibly an exemption has been granted for this particular area?

 

 

Precisely why I find it so mystifying. I find it very difficult indeed to find out much about this Polar Code other than the few pieces of information released for public consumption a few years back.

 

It would be great if there was somewhere that this information was all clearly spelled out, because absent that it is very difficult to challenge the cruise lines on their proposed itineraries.

 

 

[wolfie11]

For those interested, here is a link to the polar code on the IMO website and a summary:

http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Documents/POLAR CODE TEXT AS ADOPTED.pdf

 

http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Documents/Polar Code Ship Safety - Infographic_smaller_.pdf

Edited August 2, 2020 by wolfie11

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, wolfie11 said:

For those interested, here is a link to the polar code on the IMO website and a summary:

http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Documents/POLAR CODE TEXT AS ADOPTED.pdf

 

http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Documents/Polar Code Ship Safety - Infographic_smaller_.pdf

 

I have seen information like the above. But it doesn't clearly answer all questions. It would be MOST helpful if:

 

1. the IMO would provide a list of vessels that have the necessary Polar Ship Certificates (and the class or designation of the certificate) and dates of validity on their website, and
2. the cruise line was required to provide the entire certificate to passengers upon request (as the certificate example in the guide above indicates that it contains important information such as any operational limitations on navigation in polar waters such as temperature or ice conditions.

Nowhere in the "Polar Code Text as Adopted" document do I see references to timelines, but in an article on the IMO, I have read that:

 

"The safety provisions of the Polar Code will apply to new ships constructed after 1 January 2017. Ships constructed before 1 January 2017 will be required to meet the relevant requirements of the Polar Code by the first intermediate or renewal survey, whichever occurs first, after 1 January 2018."

 

This also tallies with what I've read here, regarding the certification occurring at the (existing) ship's next assessment/review.

 

According to the documentation, ships are assigned a Polar Class as follows:

• Category A - ships designed for operation in polar waters in at least medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions
• Category B - a ship not included in category A, designed for operation in polar waters in at least thin first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions
• Category C - a ship designed to operate in open water or in ice conditions less severe than those included in categories A and B.

But where is the tie-in between the ships' Polar Class (e.g., A, B, or C) and where it may navigate? What is the tie-in with the 60 degree limit?  I do not see that spelled out in either the guide or the infographics available on the site. Am I just missing it?

 

 

[AlanF65]

I was curious how far apart each degree was.

Each degree is about 69 miles so 65 degrees is about 350 miles away.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/degreelenllavcalc.html

 

[bizeesheri]

I emailed the office of the president of HAL this morning.  Asking them to comment and specifically to this board (and to me if not) on this question.   Understandable but frustrating for us to try and speculate from PCC's etc.  (no offense to anyone here for questions,) we are justified in trying to know the impacts.  I copied the links above in my email. 

 

Hopefully they respond.    

 

 

[wolfie11]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have seen information like the above. But it doesn't clearly answer all questions. It would be MOST helpful if:

 

1. the IMO would provide a list of vessels that have the necessary Polar Ship Certificates (and the class or designation of the certificate) and dates of validity on their website, and
2. the cruise line was required to provide the entire certificate to passengers upon request (as the certificate example in the guide above indicates that it contains important information such as any operational limitations on navigation in polar waters such as temperature or ice conditions.

Nowhere in the "Polar Code Text as Adopted" document do I see references to timelines, but in an article on the IMO, I have read that:

 

"The safety provisions of the Polar Code will apply to new ships constructed after 1 January 2017. Ships constructed before 1 January 2017 will be required to meet the relevant requirements of the Polar Code by the first intermediate or renewal survey, whichever occurs first, after 1 January 2018."

 

This also tallies with what I've read here, regarding the certification occurring at the (existing) ship's next assessment/review.

 

According to the documentation, ships are assigned a Polar Class as follows:

• Category A - ships designed for operation in polar waters in at least medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions
• Category B - a ship not included in category A, designed for operation in polar waters in at least thin first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions
• Category C - a ship designed to operate in open water or in ice conditions less severe than those included in categories A and B.

But where is the tie-in between the ships' Polar Class (e.g., A, B, or C) and where it may navigate? What is the tie-in with the 60 degree limit?  I do not see that spelled out in either the guide or the infographics available on the site. Am I just missing it?

 

 

I spent a little time looking at this.  According to what I read and you highlighted above, ships have 5 years after their last intermediate survey to grandfather in under the polar code.  The date this went into effect is January 1, 2018.  Westerdam was surveyed in April 2017, which may allow her to travel to Antarctica until April, 2022, but not after that.  Surveys are required by the IMO every five years.

Edited August 2, 2020 by wolfie11

[cruisemom42]

46 minutes ago, wolfie11 said:

I spent a little time looking at this.  According to what I read and you highlighted above, ships have 5 years after their last intermediate survey to grandfather in under the polar code.  The date this went into effect is January 1, 2018.  Westerdam was surveyed in April 2017, which may allow her to travel to Antarctica until April, 2022, but not after that.  Surveys are required by the IMO every five years.

 

Does it say explicitly that a Class C ship cannot go past "X" degrees, or a Class B/Class A can go...where? 

 

If so, can you point me to it?

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by cruisemom42

[wolfie11]

3 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Does it say explicitly that a Class C ship cannot go past "X" degrees, or a Class B/Class A can go...where? 

 

If so, can you point me to it?

 

There is no specific geographic destination for where what class of ship may go, likely due to ever-shifting conditions and changing ice cover.  If you are traveling above 60 degrees, your ship must have a polar certificate.  I would think most cruise ships would get a Class C certificate, which would be an ice-strengthened hull.  However, according to the code, a non ice-strengthened ship could be granted a certificate if the classification society determined that the hull was sufficiently strong to withstand damage by ice according to the parameters laid out in the code.  It would be incumbent on the ships master to ensure the ship did not get into any ice conditions beyond that for which it is rated.