One of First Cruise Ships to Sail Has Covid 19 Outbreak

[Guerncruising]

At last something sensible said.

 

 

[Travelcat2]

7 hours ago, cruiseluv said:

See, this is a moving target. First it was wash your hands and social distancing and 15 days to slow the spread, then masks were added (although at the beginning we were told not to), now goggles and we need to keep at it until ... whats next?? I havent seen the science on masks ( please, dont just say the CDC/ Dr Fauci says so) , so I use them when I'm required to, that's it

 

Thank you for responding and giving your point of view!

[lprp]

[1982CruzStart]

9 hours ago, cruiseluv said:

I havent seen the science on masks ( please, dont just say the CDC/ Dr Fauci says so) , so I use them when I'm required to, that's it

Here is some science on them. Glad to hear that you wear them even without knowing the science. 

 

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

[sita]

Over on Paul Gauguin board news of positive testing passenger causing mid cruise turn around of first internationally open cruise. 

[greykitty]

@sita, thanks for the head's up.  Even more data for the regulators and cruise lines to absorb, as well as prospective passengers.   

 

Even if all the passengers and crew 'signed up' for these risks (as well as ports or regulators that ok'd the sailings), I feel for the already no doubt overstressed healthcare infrastructure who may now need to deal with this.  

 

Perhaps unpopular - but looks to me like the CDC was on the right track all along vis a vis risks involved in lifting a no sail order.

 

PS - perhaps some would use the word newbie derisively, but at least this one 'knows a hawk from a handsaw' at times.

 

Know a hawk from a handsaw 

Edited August 2, 2020 by greykitty

[Travelcat2]

47 minutes ago, sita said:

Over on Paul Gauguin board news of positive testing passenger causing mid cruise turn around of first internationally open cruise. 

 

 

Thank you for sharing that information!

[Dolebludger]

Just to clear something up about masks, originally Dr. Fauci advised the general public not to wear N 95 medical grade masks because there was then a shortage of these and they were needed be medical personnel and first responders. Fauci did advise the general public to wear non-medical grade masks when in crowded indoor areas and super crowded outdoor areas, from the beginning of this pandemic. They are not as effective as N 95s, but they are pretty effective. N 95s are reported to be 95% effective, while other masks are effective in the 70% to 85% according to reports. 

[Travelcat2]

5 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

Just to clear something up about masks, originally Dr. Fauci advised the general public not to wear N 95 medical grade masks because there was then a shortage of these and they were needed be medical personnel and first responders. Fauci did advise the general public to wear non-medical grade masks when in crowded indoor areas and super crowded outdoor areas, from the beginning of this pandemic. They are not as effective as N 95s, but they are pretty effective. N 95s are reported to be 95% effective, while other masks are effective in the 70% to 85% according to reports. 

 

I think that it is important for people to remember what you just posted.  Being a new virus, doctors and scientists were not initially aware of what it was (and they still have questions and are getting answers almost every day).  So, protocols have changed a bit since March but is not a reflection of the competence of the men and women that are working so hard to find a vaccine and/or cure for this virus.

[Ladys Mom]

1 hour ago, Travelcat2 said:

 

I think that it is important for people to remember what you just posted.  Being a new virus, doctors and scientists were not initially aware of what it was (and they still have questions and are getting answers almost every day).  So, protocols have changed a bit since March but is not a reflection of the competence of the men and women that are working so hard to find a vaccine and/or cure for this virus.

On top of wearing a mask, N95 or otherwise, on a plane the CDC is recommending wearing a face shield as well to prevent the covid virus from entering through the eyes.  I have even seen pictures of people boarding planes with full PPE on.  I hope that isn't what it will take to allow us to travel in the near future, but I will if I have to, in order to board a cruise ship.

[Dolebludger]

I hope there can be updates here on CC about the situations with the Hurtigan ship and The PG. I an interested in how the situations are handled after the ships dock, whether additional cases are discovered then, what tracing may reveal about the sources, whether an on-ship quarantine is required, and how passengers and crew are sent home.

[BBWC]

Also positive cases among Costa crew in Italy. Crew were able to go on shore leave in Civitavecchia before cases were discovered.

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/08/articles/disease/three-costa-crew-members-test-positive-for-covid-19-raising-number-of-infected-crew-members-in-europe-to-54/

[sita]

42 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

I hope there can be updates here on CC about the situations with the Hurtigan ship and The PG. I an interested in how the situations are handled after the ships dock, whether additional cases are discovered then, what tracing may reveal about the sources, whether an on-ship quarantine is required, and how passengers and crew are sent home.

The roll call on CC for the PG cruise appears to answer some of these questions.

[Travelcat2]

20 hours ago, Ladys Mom said:

On top of wearing a mask, N95 or otherwise, on a plane the CDC is recommending wearing a face shield as well to prevent the covid virus from entering through the eyes.  I have even seen pictures of people boarding planes with full PPE on.  I hope that isn't what it will take to allow us to travel in the near future, but I will if I have to, in order to board a cruise ship.

 

You may want to try a face shield - they are so much more comfortable than masks.  I bought this one from Amazon https://smile.amazon.com/Fashionable-Safe-Face-Shields-Everyday/dp/B0885XV55B/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=face+shield&qid=1596475436&sr=8-9 about a month ago and it is still comfortable and wearing well (I wipe it down with soap and water - very easy).  I can wear it with or without a mask but wear a mask in places like markets where there are quite a few people around -  some not keeping their distance.

[BarbarianPaul]

Personally, I absolutely love cruising, but I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think social distancing can be an effective deterrent, even with reduced capacity, on a cruise ship. All it takes is one cough or sneeze, from one passenger, maybe in a dining room, and the entire ship is in jeopardy. At this point, why would anyone willingly head into such a confined environment?

 

I do believe there will be an effective vaccine, and sooner than we think. Heaven knows I’m now sitting on a fortune of FCCs, and I look forward to using them. But certainly not now, or any time soon. I think it’s delusional to think any of the mitigation measures being discussed will provide a truly acceptable level of safety.  No doubt there are a bunch of Hurtigruten passengers and crew who will agree with me. And I don’t think the CDC is anywhere close to letting any of our ships sail.

 

 

 

 

[Travelcat2]

Paul, my issue with your post is stating "I think that it's delusional to think any of the mitigation measures being discussed will provide a truly acceptable level of safety".  If someone were calling you delusional, you may react in the same way.  This is why I feel that those of us that are willing to sail when the CDC approves the protocols are being kinder than those that do not want to cruise.  I respect you or any other person that does not feel that cruising for you is right until there is a vaccine and feel that our decision to cruise also needs to also be respected.

 

In terms of the ships sailing now, at least a couple of them (have not checked them all) are distancing at the equivalent of 4'9".  Testing done in the U.S. have shown that the minimum distance between people should be 6'.  Many/most of us have seen how far a sneeze or cough travels with and without a mask.  Less than 6' works if you are wearing a mask but if you are not, some particles in the air went slightly over 6'.  So, if you are dining in a restaurant and have your mask off to eat, as long as the tables are far enough apart, you should be fine.

 

I'm finding that wearing a face shield is so comfortable that I would have no problem wearing it during dinner (obviously when I'm not eating).  Some restaurants are requiring masks/face shields for their patrons when they are seated but are waiting for their food.  The bottom line for the restaurants that have opened in our city is that they all remain open and no cases of the virus have been traced back to them.

 

 

[cruiseluv]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:14 AM, greykitty said:

For me, whenever a complaint is made about 'moving goal posts' or 'changing rules', I think way way back to 1973, when I took a course in scientific method at a Jesuit university.  Definition that stuck with me since then:

 

a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

 

I've found that applying this method works pretty darn well in life in general. Maybe that's why I'm not surprised/annoyed as protocols evolve?

 

To stay on topic (LOL) the first European voyages are giving us data that helps us to test and modify protocols.  

 

ETA - I was an English lit/Spanish lit double major....but at that point the Jesuits were serious that all undergrads took at least 9 hours of science-related courses, as well as 9 of philosophy.  At the time, ugh...in hindsight, thank you, curriculum developers!

 

Its so comforting seeing Jesuits brought up here. I went to a Spanish nuns school, our "sister" school (although they were all boys) was a Jesuit school down the street. not sure what this has to do with anything. I dont mind things evolving, but it would be nice to be given the so called "science" that was responsible for the change, that's all. 

 

[auldlassie]

Travelcat2,

your mention of some cough and sneeze particles travelling "slightly over 6' " if not wearing a mask, raised my eyebrows.  I recall reading very early on in the Wuhan outbreak a study of virus particle travel distance on a bus in Wuhan showing a travel distance of 4.5m within the bus (sans air conditioning) . Since then, there have been a huge raft of articles published or re-surfaced on sneeze or cough droplet travel distance - too many to list here, but a quick google brings up many. There is a bit of variation in results, but sadly slightly over 6 ft is a huge understatement in all. Here's one from MIT for example - this is just a brief summary but many others are very detailed - 

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-far-do-coughs-and-sneezes-travel/

"according to research by scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, it’s not just the person next to us we should worry about: coughing spreads droplets as far as six metres, and sneezing as much as eight metres. These droplets stay suspended in the air for up to 10 minutes."

 

I totally agree that people will differ in what they feel is any type of effective mitigation measure. Understanding proven science helps everyone make their judgments optimally, but other factors,  both emotional and physical ones, play a huge part in our decision making. You and I both agree we have a right to make decisions about cruising again for ourselves, if cruise companies are legally operating, but please be aware that it is very much the case that coughs and sneezes can catapult the virus much further than the distance that is likely between tables at restaurants. Of course that applies to all restaurants, not just those on cruise ships!  I just wanted to clarify the known science about the distance.

 

I hope you -  and all cruisers -  can stay safe while cruising and I am very much looking forward to a time when I can cruise safely in future.  🙂 

 

 

 

 

 

[pappy1022]

1 hour ago, auldlassie said:

Travelcat2,

your mention of some cough and sneeze particles travelling "slightly over 6' " if not wearing a mask, raised my eyebrows.  I recall reading very early on in the Wuhan outbreak a study of virus particle travel distance on a bus in Wuhan showing a travel distance of 4.5m within the bus (sans air conditioning) . Since then, there have been a huge raft of articles published or re-surfaced on sneeze or cough droplet travel distance - too many to list here, but a quick google brings up many. There is a bit of variation in results, but sadly slightly over 6 ft is a huge understatement in all. Here's one from MIT for example - this is just a brief summary but many others are very detailed - 

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-far-do-coughs-and-sneezes-travel/

"according to research by scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, it’s not just the person next to us we should worry about: coughing spreads droplets as far as six metres, and sneezing as much as eight metres. These droplets stay suspended in the air for up to 10 minutes."

 

I totally agree that people will differ in what they feel is any type of effective mitigation measure. Understanding proven science helps everyone make their judgments optimally, but other factors,  both emotional and physical ones, play a huge part in our decision making. You and I both agree we have a right to make decisions about cruising again for ourselves, if cruise companies are legally operating, but please be aware that it is very much the case that coughs and sneezes can catapult the virus much further than the distance that is likely between tables at restaurants. Of course that applies to all restaurants, not just those on cruise ships!  I just wanted to clarify the known science about the distance.

 

I hope you -  and all cruisers -  can stay safe while cruising and I am very much looking forward to a time when I can cruise safely in future.  🙂 

 

 

 

 

 

So true. The small aerosol particles that can be expelled simply by talking, singing or even just breathing are also spreading COVID-19. You don’t have to show signs of sickness or even cough or sneeze to spread this disease. And those Small particles remain in the air for many minutes so you could potentially walk into a space (say a bar or a restaurant table spaced 6 feet apart) where no one is there at the time, and inhale these particles left from a person who was there a few minutes ago. That’s what makes this disease so different and so contagious from other viruses. I don’t deny anyone’s right to go cruising whenever it becomes available. We do need to have some people cruise to refine the safety protocols and active response procedures. I for one will wait for the entire chain (air travel, cruising, buses, Hotels, museums, etc.) to show proof that they can operate safely before I schedule another cruise. 

[SusieQft]

6 hours ago, auldlassie said:

coughing spreads droplets as far as six metres, and sneezing as much as eight metres

Yes, indeed.  The virus does not care a bit about the metric system or "English" measurements, or governmental regulations and recommendations.  There is no arbitrary cut-off for how far it will travel or how long it will remain suspended in the air.  Some of the virus droplets/particles will be over-achievers.

[Gray Eagle02]

What is truly amazing to me is that the some of the very same people who intended to take a Regent cruise after the US State Department and CDC issued advisories against taking any cruises ( coincidentally, Regent pulled the plug right before the government mandated an end to cruises in US waters) are now claiming they’ll be the first aboard when cruises resume. These are also the people who have consistently railed against the CDC, but I guess now CDC is trustworthy. 
I’m a long way from cruises. Like Wendy, we are glad we were able to travel as extensively as we did.  We may stick to domestic travel in the foreseeable future, but for now we’re sticking close to home.  BTW, I’ve been on multiple Regent cruises; I’m not a newbie.

[cwn]

If it were pre March 2019 we could class people as newbie ( to sailing on Regent if they had not done so before). 

 

But now As of mid March 2019, we are all newbies because none of us know how it will be when Regent starts sailing again. Those of us who have sailed Regent pre Covid can talk All we want about how it was, but no one yet knows how it is going to be!  

So we are newbies going forward, like it or not! Covid 19 has turned traveling especially cruising upside down.

 

We can talk about the interior of the ships that we have sailed on, but no one, newbie or returning cruiser,  has any idea what it will be really like once the ships sail again. It will be a different world full of question marks and probably many adjustments going forward.

[UUNetBill]

3 minutes ago, cwn said:

If it were pre March 2019 we could class people as newbie ( to sailing on Regent if they had not done so before). 

 

But now As of mid March 2019, we are all newbies because none of us know how it will be when Regent starts sailing again. Those of us who have sailed Regent pre Covid can talk All we want about how it was, but no one yet knows how it is going to be!  

So we are newbies going forward, like it or not! Covid 19 has turned traveling especially cruising upside down.

 

We can talk about the interior of the ships that we have sailed on, but no one, newbie or returning cruiser,  has any idea what it will be really like once the ships sail again. It will be a different world full of question marks and probably many adjustments going forward.

Or 2020, as it were...  😉

[cwn]

2 minutes ago, UUNetBill said:

Or 2020, as it were...  😉

Yes of course! It just seems like it has been that long!!!!

[BarbarianPaul]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:00 PM, Travelcat2 said:

Paul, my issue with your post is stating "I think that it's delusional to think any of the mitigation measures being discussed will provide a truly acceptable level of safety".  If someone were calling you delusional, you may react in the same way.  This is why I feel that those of us that are willing to sail when the CDC approves the protocols are being kinder than those that do not want to cruise.  I respect you or any other person that does not feel that cruising for you is right until there is a vaccine and feel that our decision to cruise also needs to also be respected.

 

In terms of the ships sailing now, at least a couple of them (have not checked them all) are distancing at the equivalent of 4'9".  Testing done in the U.S. have shown that the minimum distance between people should be 6'.  Many/most of us have seen how far a sneeze or cough travels with and without a mask.  Less than 6' works if you are wearing a mask but if you are not, some particles in the air went slightly over 6'.  So, if you are dining in a restaurant and have your mask off to eat, as long as the tables are far enough apart, you should be fine.

 

I'm finding that wearing a face shield is so comfortable that I would have no problem wearing it during dinner (obviously when I'm not eating).  Some restaurants are requiring masks/face shields for their patrons when they are seated but are waiting for their food.  The bottom line for the restaurants that have opened in our city is that they all remain open and no cases of the virus have been traced back to them.

 

 

It’s hard to gauge the effectiveness of these protocols when we read about them not working. That said, the German cruises to nowhere have not yet had any issues, so that’s a good sign. 
 

One other thing worries me, though. There are quite a few folks out there not willing to put on a mask, and we all know that’s a major contributor to the current resurgence. So how do we make sure the protocols, still unproven, are respected and followed? All it takes is one bad apple,  and we’ve all seen arrogant, inappropriate behavior from passengers who feel entitled. We faced a norovirus outbreak on an Australian/New Zealand cruise last for that very reason.

 

My phraseology aside, I don’t think it’s unkind to debate whether or not we should get onboard a ship. But one thing is certain. We don’t have enough information yet to make a truly informed decision.