Venice and cruise ships....Update!...ships banned from lagoon

[cruisemom42]

54 minutes ago, Dukefan said:

I also think this might be a good solution to the challenge faced if they can find a way to provide better transport that is currently available back and forth to the airport (Currently almost a two hour bus ride/one hour if you rent a car) and to San Marco (Currently an hour and fifteen minutes from this area requiring you to chance boats in Lido).   

 

I'm confused -- you are talking about those timings from the new area shown on the map?  If so, where is that info available? 

[Dukefan]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm confused -- you are talking about those timings from the new area shown on the map?  If so, where is that info available? 

I used Google to get the bus times to the airport as well as the rental car times.  I also used Google for the boat connection to San Marco.

 

[Badatz2]

Ehere did the ships dock before they were stopped by Covid-19?.  Will they return to there again ?

Is it walking distance to the city?  Thanks

Edited March 10, 2021 by Badatz2

[Hlitner]

On 3/10/2021 at 2:18 PM, Badatz2 said:

Ehere did the ships dock before they were stopped by Covid-19?.  Will they return to there again ?

Is it walking distance to the city?  Thanks

The current cruise port lies close to the city just off the Giudecca Canal.  The port is connected to the city by an automated People Mover (an elevated train) that makes the journey in a few short minutes.  It is possible to walk from the cruise port to the city in about 20 min (we have done it many times) but most cruisers do not make this hike.

 

Will big ships again return to the convenient port?  Very unlikely due to lots of opposition from environmental groups.  It is possible that a new channel could be dredged to get ships to the current port via a different route but that is unlikely.   Some here have talked about a new cruise port outside of the Lagoon (at the entrance to the Lagoon that has been used for years) but given how things work in Italy this would take many years for planning, building, etc.  And there is no decent transportation system that could get folks from that area to Venice.  Using smaller shuttle boats is a possibility and is likely what would happen if that site (shown on the map in this thread) is ever used.  Another option is to use a docking area on the mainland which still leaves the problem of how to get passengers between any docking area and Venice.  

 

There are no easy solutions and we should be cognizant that Italy does not lend itself to fast solutions to any problem.  Any proposal would likely have opposition and need to work its way through the Italian courts and possibly Parliament.  History tells us this could be a matter of decades rather then a few short years.   What makes more sense is to continue to use the current facility (and channel) while a new option is constructed but that is not how things work in Italy.  What they have done is shut down the current cruise port (a pretty decent facility) to larger ships without having any good alternative.  

 

My solution to those who want to go to Venice is book themselves on a small ship that can still get into the current port.  Another option is to do a driving trip in Italy and you can then drive yourself to Venice (parking in the Piazale Roma). Or, you can simply take the train to Venice.  We have driven our own rental car to Venice (multiple times), flown there via Marco Polo Airport (one of the worst airports in Europe), and gone there via the train (a pretty good option).  Venice may well disappear as a cruise port for larger ships with no acceptable alternative for decades.   Cruisers already know that most of Europe is not accessible via cruise ships so perhaps folks that like big ships need to cross Venice off their list.

 

The first time DW and I cruised into Venice was on the then new Grand Princess in 1999.  It was thrilling to slowly cruise down the Giudecca Canal gazing down at St Marks Square.  At the time I remember saying to DW that it was crazy that a large vessel could move down that canal (Giudecca) so close to the city but I loved every moment.  There is no easy solution to the current question of how to best access Venice from large ships.   On the other hand, most of Europe is not accessible via cruise ship.

 

Hank

[Ride-The-Waves]

Lots of speculation with none really relatable to what the Italian government and city of Venice are thinking or planning.  The basic Venice challenge is that the city itself is sinking.  Centuries old wood pilings coupled with the weight of people and commerce over the years has not been kind to the city.  Second is that climate change is causing increasingly frequent Acqua Alta is also damaging the city.  Venice needs a long term solution and one not just focused on the relatively small cruise ship contribution to its economy.

 

The immediate issue is the establishment of a temporary port where cruise ships, and we are talking everything over 1,000 tones by Venice's planning, can permit passengers to embark and disembark.  RCG has decided to use Ravenna port while others have opted to use Trieste.  Both workable while a permanent solution is planned, funded and constructed.  The 1,000 ton limit will still permit use by river boats, ferries and pleasure craft.

 

Uncertainty is the name of the game.  We have booked a cruise out of Venice in November 2022.  Still says "Venice" but I suspect the actual embarkation will be someplace other.

[Host Jazzbeau]

Well, they actually did it.  Cruise ships exiled to Marghera:

Italian Government Bans Cruise Ships From Venice City Center

"Temporary" – until a permanent solution is worked out [or MMM...]

[steamboats]

According to the German media sources it´s that the ministries made sort of an announcement. They are now asking to find permanent solutions... Not that there weren´t any plans over the last almost 10 years. But non of the plans got ever approved... Neither a new terminal outside of the lagoon nor digging out any of the existing canals... I don´t know which new plans should come up to solve this problem.

 

steamboats

[Second seating]

Is this going to effect the small ships like SeaDream Yachts?

 

Thank you,

Second seating

[dogs4fun]

2 hours ago, Second seating said:

Is this going to effect the small ships like SeaDream Yachts?

 

Thank you,

Second seating

AFAIK, the previous plans only affected the large ships - from what I read online, ships weighing more than 1,000 tonnes.

Edited March 30, 2021 by dogs4fun

[marazul]

6 hours ago, steamboats said:

According to the German media sources it´s that the ministries made sort of an announcement. They are now asking to find permanent solutions... Not that there weren´t any plans over the last almost 10 years. But non of the plans got ever approved... Neither a new terminal outside of the lagoon nor digging out any of the existing canals... I don´t know which new plans should come up to solve this problem.

I heard from a long-time resident of Venice that the port (and cruise ship traffic) is under the control of eight different government agencies.  This allows one of them to issue self-serving statements from time to time about the problems and to propose solutions with no chance of changes ever being made.  It would take the agreement and cooperation of all eight agencies for any plans to be approved.  So, as that Venetian said, don't expect any changes any time soon. 

Più le cose cambiano . . .

[cruisemom42]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:44 AM, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

The immediate issue is the establishment of a temporary port where cruise ships, and we are talking everything over 1,000 tones by Venice's planning, can permit passengers to embark and disembark.  RCG has decided to use Ravenna port while others have opted to use Trieste.  Both workable while a permanent solution is planned, funded and constructed.  The 1,000 ton limit will still permit use by river boats, ferries and pleasure craft.

 

 

4 hours ago, dogs4fun said:

AFAIK, the previous plans only affected the large ships - from what I read online, ships weighing more than 1,000 tonnes.

 

I have looked at numerous sources reporting this announcement but have not been able to locate any that specify 1,000 tons as stated here. Can one of you help me out?

 

1,000 tons is not large. Even the very small Aegean Odyssey that I loved (with 300 pax) was nearly 13,000 gross tonnage...

[marazul]

Could it be 100,000 tons? The behemoths like the Edge are all over that weight.  That would leave a lot of cruise ships still coming up the Giudecca canal

[dogs4fun]

23 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

I have looked at numerous sources reporting this announcement but have not been able to locate any that specify 1,000 tons as stated here. Can one of you help me out?

 

1,000 tons is not large. Even the very small Aegean Odyssey that I loved (with 300 pax) was nearly 13,000 gross tonnage...

 

Apologies - I should have been more precise in my previous response.

Here are a few links to some articles mentioning banning ships in excess of 1,000 tonnes from entering Venice's historic center:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49276730

https://www.cruisetradenews.com/impact-of-venice-cruise-ship-ban/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-09/venice-bans-large-cruise-ships-from-city-centre/11398434

I've also read articles that specify banning ships larger than 96,000 tonnes from the Giudecca canal. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54478119

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by dogs4fun

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, marazul said:

Could it be 100,000 tons? The behemoths like the Edge are all over that weight.  That would leave a lot of cruise ships still coming up the Giudecca canal

 

I had thought that the 100,000 tons guidance was already in effect, so I would be very surprised if it is not lower than that. However, the low limit of 1,000 tons seems quite a serious undertaking and would remove virtually any cruise ship from sailing through the lagoon and into Venice proper.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, dogs4fun said:

 

Apologies - I should have been more precise in my previous response.

Here are a few links to some articles mentioning banning ships in excess of 1,000 tonnes from entering Venice's historic center:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49276730

https://www.cruisetradenews.com/impact-of-venice-cruise-ship-ban/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-09/venice-bans-large-cruise-ships-from-city-centre/11398434

I've also read articles that specify banning ships larger than 96,000 tonnes from the Giudecca canal. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54478119

 

 

It looks like all of the ones you cite are older than the recent announcement.

 

I'm in a quandary -- the articles published from last week all say that the four ministers agree to not allow "larger ships" access through the lagoon and into Venice; that they must dock at Marghera -- but none of these recent ones specify what size is allowed.

 

I am no marine expert -- I'm not sure if saying "1,000 tonnes" is the same as "1,000 tons".  Most cruise ship measurements I see are in the form of gross tonnage...

 

 

[marazul]

24 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

I am no marine expert -- I'm not sure if saying "1,000 tonnes" is the same as "1,000 tons".  Most cruise ship measurements I see are in the form of gross tonnage...

 

 

1000 metric tonnes = 1,000,000 kg =1103 U.S. tons (approx) = 2,205,000 lbs (approx) 

1 metric tonne = 1000 kg = 1.103 U.S. ton (approx) = 2205 lbs (approx)

Edited March 30, 2021 by marazul

[d9704011]

5 minutes ago, marazul said:

1000 metric tonnes = 1,000,000 kg =1103 U.S. tons (approx) = 2,205,000 lbs (approx) 

OK, bit not really applicable.  When talking about the size of ships, the tonnage is a reflection of the interior volume of certain parts of the ship and comes from a fairly complicated calculation.  It has nothing to do with tonnes, tons, kilos or pounds which are units of mass (weight).

[dogs4fun]

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over the issue - I assume that the mega ships will no longer be allowed to sail into Venice via the Giudecca canal & the smaller ships will still be allowed (don’t know what tonnage will constitute a small ship). But who knows - it is, after all, Italy.

Something needs to be done to preserve the lagoon IMHO - one can still visit Venice even if all ships dock in Marghera.

Edited March 30, 2021 by dogs4fun

[marazul]

Yes, it is the measure of the cargo carrying capacity of the ship. Here is the formula:

Tonnage, in shipping, the total number of tons registered or carried or the total carrying capacity. Gross tonnage is calculated from the formula GT = K₁V, where V is the volume of a ship's enclosed spaces in cubic metres and K₁ is a constant calculated by K₁ = 0.2 + 0.02 log₁₀ V.

[d9704011]

5 minutes ago, marazul said:

Yes, it is the measure of the cargo carrying capacity of the ship. Here is the formula:

Tonnage, in shipping, the total number of tons registered or carried or the total carrying capacity. Gross tonnage is calculated from the formula GT = K₁V, where V is the volume of a ship's enclosed spaces in cubic metres and K₁ is a constant calculated by K₁ = 0.2 + 0.02 log₁₀ V.

Great!  How does any of that convert to kilos or pounds and for a cruise ship of about 131,000 GT (Celebrity Edge) what does it mean as far as carrying capacity goes?

[d9704011]

10 minutes ago, dogs4fun said:

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over the issue - I assume that the mega ships will no longer be allowed to sail into Venice via the Giudecca canal & the smaller ships will still be allowed (don’t know what tonnage will constitute a small ship). But who knows - it is, after all, Italy.

Something needs to be done to preserve the lagoon IMHO - one can still visit Venice even if all ships dock in Marghera.

I’ve read that 96,000 GT might be the maximum size they’re contemplating (MSC Magnifica coincidentally).  As you say though.... who really knows?

[marazul]

I was curious, so I found a quote from a 2019 article showing that large ships (grandi navi) were defined in a 2012 decree as having more than 40,000 tonnes.  The decree forbids the large ships, but postpones the implementation until adequate navigation channels are available.  And, apparently, that is the mess they are in today.

 

"Nel 2012 un decreto Infrastrutture e Ambiente 2 marzo 2012, sottoscritto dai ministri Corrado Passera e Corrado Clini aveva vietato il transito nel Canale di San Marco e nel Canale della Giudecca delle navi adibite al trasporto di merci e passeggeri superiori a 40mila tonnellate di stazza lorda. Ma la disposizione transitoria prevedeva che il divieto si applicasse «a partire dalla disponibilità di vie di navigazione praticabili alternative a quelle vietate, come individuate dall'Autorità marittima con proprio provvedimento». "

https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/il-business-grandi-navi-e-stop-laguna-annunciato-fine-giugno-ACk4LaL

Edited March 30, 2021 by marazul

[marazul]

Whichever size they decide on, it will be based on gross tonnage (GT) or in Italian "tonnellate di stazza lorda."  Whether it is the weight defined in the 2012 decree or a new one remains to be seen.  And the GT of your favorite ships can be found in the websites of the cruise lines.  Hopefully, it will be 40,000 GT or less. 

[cruisemom42]

 

1 hour ago, marazul said:

Whichever size they decide on, it will be based on gross tonnage (GT) or in Italian "tonnellate di stazza lorda."  Whether it is the weight defined in the 2012 decree or a new one remains to be seen.  And the GT of your favorite ships can be found in the websites of the cruise lines.  Hopefully, it will be 40,000 GT or less. 

 

I think 40,000 sounds reasonable and more likely to be along the lines they were thinking, but who knows?

[steamboats]

Venice wanted to limit the size of the ships but it was never done. When the number 96,000 GT came up the cruise lines agreed to send no larger ships than 96,000 GT. I don´t exaclty remember whether they tried to set a limit and this was skipped in a law suit. But the number of 96,000 GT definitely is an agreement of the cruise lines and no law of any sort.

 

Currently there is no number mentioned to define "larger ships".

 

steamboats