MSC Not Tolerating Violation of New C-19 Health Protocols

[mnocket]

Image of waiters not wearing face masks under their face shields.

 

[PTC DAWG]

6 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Image of waiters not wearing face masks under their face shields.

 

That seems fine to me, you want them in full tyvek body suits?  

[ECCruise]

4 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

That seems fine to me, you want them in full tyvek body suits?  

That may be "fine" with you but you are terribly and dangerously uninformed.  Though I doubt that anyone would take PPE or medical advice from an anonymous cruise addict who can't wait to get back on a ship.

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[mnocket]

30 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

That seems fine to me, you want them in full tyvek body suits?  

 

No.  What I want them to do is to live up to what they promise their customers on their website... "All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves".

 

It's not right to promise customers certain safety precautions up front and then fail to live up to those promises once onboard.  

Edited August 20, 2020 by mnocket

[hcat]

3 hours ago, yorky said:

The thing is that group of people have been tested. That private driver probably won’t have been. You are in a relatively safe bubble which makes a lot of sense.

Aside from tests, masks  and handwashing/ sanitizing,  small cohort groups seem to have a benefit in reducing spread. 

 

Being used in pre school and other educational  settings.

 

If everyone on the excursion was okayed including the driver..and excursion with scenic outdoor stops would work well

[Ravbo]

Good for MSC.

ZERO TOLERANCE.

ALL cruise lines needs to have the same STRICT enforcement of ALL requirements until this Covid issue is resolved if they want to stay in business.

If passengers don't want to comply they need to stay home.

NO EXCUSES.  NO EXCEPTIONS.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Ravbo

[WonderMan3]

Stupid rule to restrict to cruise excursions only, but right decision to boot off any of those who don't want to comply. If you don't like the rules then don't book the cruise. I certainly won't as long as this excursion rule is in place. 

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

3 hours ago, ECCruise said:

That may be "fine" with you but you are terribly and dangerously uninformed.  Though I doubt that anyone would take PPE or medical advice from an anonymous cruise addict who can't wait to get back on a ship.

Why Plastic Face Shields Aren’t a Safe Alternative to Cloth Masks

Why a face shield alone may not protect you from coronavirus

COVID-19: Doctors discuss face masks vs. face shields

 

You don't like it, don't cruise MSC.  They had all their protocols approved.

[mnocket]

5 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

You don't like it, don't cruise MSC.  They had all their protocols approved.

 Their protocols, at least as published on their website, say all crew members wear face masks and gloves.  If this is the protocol that was approved, don't you think they should follow it?  Further, how can I make an informed decision if the protocol published on their website doesn't represent shipboard practices?

[Mike981]

5 hours ago, mnocket said:

Image of waiters not wearing face masks under their face shields.

 

 

From what I have read, shields alone are not as good as a proper mask (not the best article, but it's getting late). Personally I would not want my waiter standing over me and serving in only a shield.   Just me.

I would like to believe if more companies enforced their Covid rules, it would change some of the "bad actors". But...

[Shadow9612]

3 hours ago, WonderMan3 said:

Stupid rule to restrict to cruise excursions only, but right decision to boot off any of those who don't want to comply. If you don't like the rules then don't book the cruise. I certainly won't as long as this excursion rule is in place. 

 

46 minutes ago, Dwight1 said:

I agree, this rule is the deal breaker for this Elite cruiser. When changed I’ll be back.


Sent from my iPhone using Forums

I think it's a small price to pay to help cruise lines getting restarted.  It's temporary.

 

Also, I notice the comments are from the  perspective of "this would ruin my vacation so I'm not going".

 

However, isn't this also to protect us (the cruiser), from being infected from the locals?

[Germancruiser]

26 minutes ago, Shadow9612 said:

 

I think it's a small price to pay to help cruise lines getting restarted.  It's temporary.

 

Also, I notice the comments are from the  perspective of "this would ruin my vacation so I'm not going".

 

However, isn't this also to protect us (the cruiser), from being infected from the locals?

Thank you shadow- exactly my opinion, too. As I wrote of my experience- if you won´t comply to those new cruise rules- just don´t go. For the time beeing i feel much safter on board such a very good protected ship then on holiday on the Balkan 

( Eastern Europe or in States official called " risk regions")

[4774Papa]

You sign up for a cruise, you follow the rules.

[ECCruise]

11 hours ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

You don't like it, don't cruise MSC.  They had all their protocols approved.

Which they clearly are not following.

Got it.

[Spif Barwunkel]

Just as it is the responsibility of cruise passengers to follow established guidelines, so is it the duty of a ship's crew to abide by those protocols. If I cruise - well informed of the rules - I should be called out for not playing by those rules and accept the consequences of my actions. Seeing MSC waiters without masks is rather perturbing in that it shows inconsistency within a framework of directives. As passengers, it is our responsibility to call out the actions of a ships crew, then and there, if we feel uncomfortable with a particular situation. The onus now falls on the ships officers to rectify any concerns. How they react and interact will determine their mettle and their dedication to the safety and well-being of all.

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, Spif Barwunkel said:

Just as it is the responsibility of cruise passengers to follow established guidelines, so is it the duty of a ship's crew to abide by those protocols. If I cruise - well informed of the rules - I should be called out for not playing by those rules and accept the consequences of my actions. Seeing MSC waiters without masks is rather perturbing in that it shows inconsistency within a framework of directives. As passengers, it is our responsibility to call out the actions of a ships crew, then and there, if we feel uncomfortable with a particular situation. The onus now falls on the ships officers to rectify any concerns. How they react and interact will determine their mettle and their dedication to the safety and well-being of all.

 

15 hours ago, mnocket said:

 Their protocols, at least as published on their website, say all crew members wear face masks and gloves.  If this is the protocol that was approved, don't you think they should follow it?  Further, how can I make an informed decision if the protocol published on their website doesn't represent shipboard practices?

Let's be very clear, nowhere in MSC's protocols that are published online does it state that crew members will wear masks. The actual wording is:

 

All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves

 

So face masks and gloves are examples only of the type of protective equipment that crew members might wear, not a list of compulsory equipment. If they wear a protective face shield instead of a mask, as in the photos shown previously, they are not in breach of the published protocols.

 

IMO, discussion here shouldn't be based on a (non-existent) breach of protocol but rather on the effectiveness of face shields. While I applaud MSC's protocols, I don't believe that the decision to allow the use of face shield reflects the general medical assessment of their ability to reduce possible transmission when compared to masks. The CDC, for example, does not recommend the use of shields as a substitute for masks, although it does state that wearing a mask might not be feasible in all cases and that in some situations wearing a shield would be appropriate. It would appear that MSC has decided that the waiters' use of face shields is appropriate.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Fouremco

[phoenix_dream]

Here's my issue - is it a good rule for MSC to have in the first place rather than, for example, requiring them to quarantine for the remainder of the cruise?  My concern is for the country/port where they are being disembarked.  Now it becomes that country's problem to deal with a group of people who clearly think rules do not apply to them.  And then how do they get home?  Not concerned about the rule breakers - but what about the other people who will be on the plane or train they likely will need to board in order to get home?  They are now being exposed to potential virus carriers.  It seems to me that the cruise line is dumping their problem onto others rather than dealing with it.  I support removing guests for bad behaviors as a general practice - but this is just shoving a potential problem on to others rather than handling it yourself.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

16 hours ago, mnocket said:

 Their protocols, at least as published on their website, say all crew members wear face masks and gloves.  If this is the protocol that was approved, don't you think they should follow it?  Further, how can I make an informed decision if the protocol published on their website doesn't represent shipboard practices?

 

They are wearing face masks.  You don't approve of them because they are made out of plastic or acrylic instead of cloth.  They are, however, face masks.

[npcl]

4 hours ago, ECCruise said:

Which they clearly are not following.

Got it.

They are following the rules as they were approved. Which since you are neither with the cruise line, nor with the regulatroy authority that approved them do not know what is considered an acceptable face covering.  Sorry that your interpretation of those rules do not match the cruise line and the approving national Health Authority  (Italy).

 

 

[npcl]

45 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

Let's be very clear, nowhere in MSC's protocols that are published online does it state that crew members will wear masks. The actual wording is:

 

All crew will wear protective equipment, such as face masks and gloves

 

So face masks and gloves are examples only of the type of protective equipment that crew members might wear, not a list of compulsory equipment. If they wear a protective face shield instead of a mask, as in the photos shown previously, they are not in breach of the published protocols.

 

IMO, discussion here shouldn't be based on a (non-existent) breach of protocol but rather on the effectiveness of face shields. While I applaud MSC's protocols, I don't believe that the decision to allow the use of face shield reflects the general medical assessment of their ability to reduce possible transmission when compared to masks. The CDC, for example, does not recommend the use of shields as a substitute for masks, although it does state that wearing a mask might not be feasible in all cases and that in some situations wearing a shield would be appropriate. It would appear that MSC has decided that the waiters' use of face shields is appropriate.

More a matter that the Italian Health Authority which approved the MSC plan and protocols has decided that such face shields are appropriate.

[ECCruise]

1 minute ago, npcl said:

More a matter that the Italian Health Authority which approved the MSC plan and protocols has decided that such face shields are appropriate.

Citation?

[ECCruise]

25 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

They are wearing face masks.  You don't approve of them because they are made out of plastic or acrylic instead of cloth.  They are, however, face masks.

They absolutely are NOT face masks.  There are literally hundreds of sources that discuss that.

A face mask solidly covers the entire nose and mouth area.  A face shield does neither. 

This graphic from MIT fairly clearly shows the efficacy of a face shield.  It does NOT however, show the food that would be in the server's hands underneath the shield.   Or the face of someone who could be near the escaping droplets.

 

A face shield is to protect the WEARER from droplets entering nose, mouth (and eyes).  This is why medical professionals use them when intubating  patients.  They do NOT protect others around the wearer.  

 

I see a lot of conjecture here that Italian authorities approved the use of this type of protection, but would really like to see that ruling specifically, since both the CDC (no jurisdiction) and the WHO (jurisdiction) do not consider face shields and face masks interchangeable. 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by ECCruise

[Pinboy]

2 hours ago, Spif Barwunkel said:

As passengers, it is our responsibility to call out the actions of a ships crew, then and there, if we feel uncomfortable with a particular situation.

Did You forget to mention "CALL OUT OTHER PASSENGERS AS WELL " ???

There's going to be more fights on board between " Mini Police " ( passengers  ) than you could imagine.

 ( I gave examples on several threads in the past).

Lawsuits will follow-- A punch in the mouth --- sue for $ 2.5 M -- settle for a FCC for $ 200 and complimentary laundry of bloody clothing.

[Baron Barracuda]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

Here's my issue - is it a good rule for MSC to have in the first place rather than, for example, requiring them to quarantine for the remainder of the cruise?  My concern is for the country/port where they are being disembarked.  Now it becomes that country's problem to deal with a group of people who clearly think rules do not apply to them.  And then how do they get home?  Not concerned about the rule breakers - but what about the other people who will be on the plane or train they likely will need to board in order to get home?  They are now being exposed to potential virus carriers.  It seems to me that the cruise line is dumping their problem onto others rather than dealing with it.  I support removing guests for bad behaviors as a general practice - but this is just shoving a potential problem on to others rather than handling it yourself.

Believe sailing was restricted to Italian citizens and only called at Italian ports so malefactors may have been disembarked not too far from home.

[npcl]

33 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Citation?

Do not need one.  Just the facts

 

1. MSC submitted a plan with their protocols  to the Italian Health Authority

2. The Italian Health Authority approved that plan, (MSC did announce some delays while waiting for the plan to be approved)

3. MSC is consistent in the protections being used.

 

If it was one waiter then it might be outside of the plan, since it is used by most waiters that would indicate that it is inline with MSC management and there fore their submitted and approved plan.