Why won’t Regent cancel November 2020 cruises?

[rallydave]

15 minutes ago, greykitty said:

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article245624180.html

 

ETA - I see that NCLH says it'll submit in 10 or so days.  Wonder where the other lines are in their timing.  And, of course, official review and subsequent modifications will probably be needed.  That's my experience, anyway.

Very interesting article.  Turning into a he said she said argument.  And based on the article we now have the rationale for Regent moving all their ships outside of US waters, to avoid the CDC.  Usually in cases like this with the Governmentm it is better to avoid irritating them so really surprised with what was attributed to FDR saying  in the article as the CDC does have the authority to make life miserable.

 

I imagine when all of the ships currently outside of CEC jurisdiction return to a US port,  the inspections will be extremely stringent and management may rue the day they left US waters.

[greykitty]

I agree probably both sides have a perspective they feel is 'true', and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  And, yep, baiting the feds, for any individual or industry, can have such adverse consequences down the road LOL.

[rallydave]

1 minute ago, greykitty said:

I agree probably both sides have a perspective they feel is 'true', and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 

Yup, and remember there are three (3) yes 3 sides to every story each sides story and the true story.

[greykitty]

According to this report, del Rio went off script in his comments.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/cruise-line-miami-return-to-sailing-cdc/

[mrlevin]

One thing for FdR to be enraged at CDC; however, NCLH still hasn't submitted a plan to CDC; why not?

[loriva]

4 hours ago, mrlevin said:

One thing for FdR to be enraged at CDC; however, NCLH still hasn't submitted a plan to CDC; why not?

 

Based on the article, it looks like they are waiting for the public comment period on cruising to close on 21 Sep.

[greykitty]

I'm sorry, but I don't follow why there would be a delay pending the public comment period.  I was thinking the folks named for the safety panels seemed very conversant with how the CDC and regulation works - and probably could predict what key players' public comments would be and incorporate any relevant ones into their proposals. Now, I wonder if they might have been waiting on the initial cruises in Europe and if COVID affected those attempts?

 

It did strike me as funny to complain about a supposed CDC lag in reviewing, but not bring up the time lag in proposals from the lines - either for crew repatriation or for passenger travel.  Probably a two way street there, and IMO, not unexpected from either side.

[scuba diver]

If you don't submit before the close of the public comment then the public can't comment.

 

 

[rallydave]

34 minutes ago, scuba diver said:

If you don't submit before the close of the public comment then the public can't comment.

 

 

You are mixing apples and oranges. The public only comments on the Government requirements document. The public does not get to comment on the cruise lines implementation documents

 

Only the Government comments and eventually approves the cruise lines implementation documents. 
 

More than likely the first cut of the implementation documents will not meet all of the eventual government requirement documentation which will not be complete until well after the close of comments as all comments have to be reviewed by law. 
 

This is why cruise ships will not be operating in US waters for at least several more months and likely into 2021. 
 

By the way the cruise line implementation documents will likely be marked proprietary and not available to the public or other companies. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by rallydave

[scuba diver]

I am probably offering a fruit basket.  If you have read some of the comments that have been submitted you have noticed that the comments are all over the place.  Some on point, some just bizarre.  If the cruise industry plan were out there the comments would include the plan.

[rallydave]

While I agree with the beginning of your post your idea that any business would post their implementation plans that they had spent thousands of dollars to develop for the public to comment on and also allow competitors to see and use is v cv completely incorrect 

 

documents like these are considered proprietary and marked as such and only available to the Government subject to a PIA proprietary information agreement where the Government agrees to keep all of the documents to themselves. 
 

Only the Government will comment on the company documents and the public will never see them. . 

[scuba diver]

Went back and re-read the PR hype:  

 

"Fain and Del Rio said they initiated the panel to assure the plans they will submit to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and other regulators apply the best available public health, science and engineering insights. The work of the panel will be shared with the entire industry and regulators."

 

I wrongly assumed sharing meant the public was included. 

 

[rallydave]

12 minutes ago, scuba diver said:

Went back and re-read the PR hype:  

 

"Fain and Del Rio said they initiated the panel to assure the plans they will submit to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and other regulators apply the best available public health, science and engineering insights. The work of the panel will be shared with the entire industry and regulators."

 

I wrongly assumed sharing meant the public was included. 

 

Thanks scuba diver,

 

I made an incorrect assumption as well that the results would be proprietary and not disclosed to the industry.  Forgot that they were going to share with the industry as well as regulators.

 

Undoubtedly asking for comments on requirement documents as well as implementation documents under a single Government request would really be confusing and probably further delay resuming sailing.

[wcsdkqh]

What appears very odd in the whole public comment process is that it seems in the past government agencies issue proposed rules and then there is a public comment period prior to the rules becoming effective. What exactly are people supposed to be commenting on? The process of requesting comments prior to any proposed rules seems ass-backward.

[rallydave]

42 minutes ago, wcsdkqh said:

What appears very odd in the whole public comment process is that it seems in the past government agencies issue proposed rules and then there is a public comment period prior to the rules becoming effective. What exactly are people supposed to be commenting on? The process of requesting comments prior to any proposed rules seems ass-backward.

The government (CDC) is asking for comments on the current requirements contained in the no sail order. The CDC will be eventually be releasing requirements not rules that will require the cruise lines to write their own rules that will comply with the CDC requirements. 
 

the requested comments are to the requirements not any rules.  It is easy to get confused between requirements and rules however there are specific protocols that have to be followed in order to be sure the cruise lines have policies and procedures (rules) in place in order so safely sail. 
 

Really no different than when the Government wants to buy a new  aircraft space craft etc. 

 

The government writes a specification/requirement document  and the contractor provides a proposal that says what they will build to comply with the specification/requirements. The Government does not tell the contractor how to comply just what the end result needs to be. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by rallydave

[flossie009]

23 hours ago, rallydave said:

Very interesting article.  Turning into a he said she said argument.  And based on the article we now have the rationale for Regent moving all their ships outside of US waters, to avoid the CDC.  Usually in cases like this with the Governmentm it is better to avoid irritating them so really surprised with what was attributed to FDR saying  in the article as the CDC does have the authority to make life miserable.

 

13 hours ago, scuba diver said:

"Fain and Del Rio said they initiated the panel to assure the plans they will submit to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and other regulators apply the best available public health, science and engineering insights. The work of the panel will be shared with the entire industry and regulators."

 

I still do not understand why suitable protocols for the whole cruise industry could not have been developed collaboratively (cruise lines, CLIA, CDC, port authorities etc).

A confrontational or disjointed approach is likely to result in further delays and a sub-optimal result.

[rallydave]

16 minutes ago, flossie009 said:

 

 

I still do not understand why suitable protocols for the whole cruise industry could not have been developed collaboratively (cruise lines, CLIA, CDC, port authorities etc).

A confrontational or disjointed approach is likely to result in further delays and a sub-optimal result.

At first I was going to agree 100% then started thinking, dangerous I know, and realized there are two types of documents/protocols, the requirements and the how the requirements will be performed.  So not sure which documents/protocols you are describing.  The requirements have to come from the CDC although they can and will be developed in conjunction with the industry and the public; thuse the comment period.

 

In the beginning way back March/April CLIA was going to coordinate with all of the cruise lines to provide a single point of contact with the CDC for developing the requirements.  That should have already been in work and for whatever reason CLIA is out and sure why.  What NCLH and RCG are working on I believe are the implementation plans that are being developed by the panel and will also be shared within the industry.  Am thinking, there I go again and each cruise line will end up with their own processes and procedures while including what the requirements require inputs from other industry companies plus their own unique requirements..

 

If you are strictly talking about the requirements document that is currently receiving comments and eventually released by the CDC, yes the disjointed approach has and will continue to cause delays however if the implementation processes and procedures, they cannot be completely developed by CLIA  or any collaboration like the NCLH/RCG one.

 

Realize this was quite wordy but, it is not a simple process and simply mentioning protocols does not adequately describe specifically which ones.

[flossie009]

7 hours ago, rallydave said:

The government (CDC) is asking for comments on the current requirements contained in the no sail order. The CDC will be eventually be releasing requirements not rules that will require the cruise lines to write their own rules that will comply with the CDC requirements. 

 

2 hours ago, rallydave said:

The requirements have to come from the CDC although they can and will be developed in conjunction with the industry and the public; thuse the comment period.

 

Dave, I am failing to understand the process.

 

CDC have asked for public comments on 28 questions, with multiple sub-questions. Many of the questions appear "loaded" with negative assumptions.

Most of the public comments fall into two extreme camps. Either "Cruise lines know what they are doing; just let them operate so we can go cruising again" or "Cruise ships should remain stopped as they are dangerous and have a negative health & environmental impact". Very few of the responses attempt to comment in any detail on the CDC questions.

 

I have not seen a "Requirements" document from the CDC but the cruise lines are about to submit their "Plans"

 

How & when will CDC, and other regulators, formulate/finalise their requirements, review cruise line plans and prepare for allowing cruising in US waters to recommence?

........................... or is that akin to asking "how long is a piece of string?"

 

 

[rallydave]

10 minutes ago, flossie009 said:

Most of the public comments fall into two extreme camps. Either "Cruise lines know what they are doing; just let them operate so we can go cruising again" or "Cruise ships should remain stopped as they are dangerous and have a negative health & environmental impact". Very few of the responses attempt to comment in any detail on the CDC questions.

 

When the responses started I too read what you are talking about and that is not the purpose of the request for comments and all of those comments are worthless.

 

11 minutes ago, flossie009 said:

I have not seen a "Requirements" document from the CDC but the cruise lines are about to submit their "Plans"

 

Not going back to read the No Sale Orders but do remember that the original No Sail Order did include requirements for which the cruise lines were required to respond as to how they would implement those requirements,  Believe these were the requirements for how the cruise lines would repatriate the crew and passengers and not the going forward for new cruises however pretty sure some of those requirements would flow over to resuming sailing.

 

Believe the latest revision of the No Sail Order included the requirements for resuming sailing and that is what the comments were reque  sted for.  Not the type of responses many of the public provided.

 

Believe the Requirements document will will be created from the requirements in the No Sail Order along with the applicable comments I am sure mostly from the industry and not the general public who are simply expressing frustration and not helping the process.

 

11 minutes ago, flossie009 said:

How & when will CDC, and other regulators, formulate/finalise their requirements, review cruise line plans and prepare for allowing cruising in US waters to recommence?

........................... or is that akin to asking "how long is a piece of string?"

You pretty much have it with the string question.  They are required by law to review all of the responses including the vast majority that are not applicable.  After that they will likely dig in and create the Requirements documents,  Once that is released the cruise lines who will have been working on their policies and procedures will need to review the released document to make sure their policies and procedures comply with the requirements and then submit to the CDC.  Then this CDC will need to review and provide any comments/corrections if applicable back to the cruise lines,  All the while ships can be prepared, itineraries planned, etc. in conjunction the crusis lines should work in parallel so that upon approval cruises can begin,   

 

This is how I see things progressing based on many years dealing with the Air Force and NASA building and flying planes, rocket, space ships and the like.  As to how long, I don't have a crystal ball and likely nobody else does so the best answer is we will sail when all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted.

 

I could be very wrong but, hope that answers your questions from someone with over 30 years as a Government Contractor.

[scuba diver]

40 plus years ago I was lucky enough to snag a law school class taught by Jerry Zeifman, chief counsel of the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate inquiry.  Learned a lot from the class and even more from him in after-class "academic assessment and review sessions". (held at a local Fern Bar)  He explained that Congressional hearings are mostly staged to allow the members to present their position through witnesses.  The decisions were made before the hearings and supported by the process. (hopefully)  

 

I am assuming that CDC has made their decision and is using the process to reach the conclusion that shall be set forth at some point in the future.  I admit that we never discussed the CDC decision making process, it was over 40 years ago and things do change.  Perhaps!

[rallydave]

12 hours ago, scuba diver said:

I am assuming that CDC has made their decision and is using the process to reach the conclusion that shall be set forth at some point in the future.  I admit that we never discussed the CDC decision making process, it was over 40 years ago and things do change.  Perhaps!

Believe you are correct in your assumption.  CDC like other agencies has to check the boxes that they followed the rules so perhaps that will speed up the issuance of the requirements and we can get back to sailing.

[fudgbug]

On 9/9/2020 at 6:39 PM, tennis said:

I agree it is ridiculous.  I understand their cash flow issues, but I also have cash flow issues. We are booked on the Explorer November Barcelona to Dubai cruise.  It is obviously not going.  Barcelona cruise port is not open.  Israel is not open for cruises.  EU is not open for cruises for Americans.  The only reason this was not cancelled at the end of August was because they want to hold onto our money.  At this point I do not want FCC, I want my money back so my only alternative is to wait until they cancel.  I do not think I will ever book another Regent cruise based on how they handled this.  I am disgusted.  When there was any chance it would sail I was fine with their not cancelling but now it is beyond any reasonable chance.  Give me my money back so I can do something else.

Patience.  In fact, it is not only Regent.  We are still waiting for refunds on two cruises with another line.

[fdnycruiser]

Agree with above poster. I’m booked on a TA with Silversea’s new ship Silver Moon. The cruise is scheduled for November 8, Barcelona to Miami. It’s obvious it won’t sail, but no cancellation yet, and it’s still advertised. Just waiting for my cancellation notice, and subsequent wait for a refund.

   I’m not optimistic on my March 25th, crossing on the Splendor either. All a waiting game for everyone.

[greykitty]

FWIW, Disney now cancelled through at least December 6.

 

https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/guest-services/advisory/

[phillipahain]

Virtually every port around the Med will not allow tourists in because of Covid spikes so cant see sadly how any of the Nov med cruises can go ahead because you cant enter from a flight either or if you return to the UK its 2 weeks full lockdown at home  not even allowed out to buy food