Comment on Restarting Cruising

[jhannah]

September 21 is the deadline for submitting comments with regard to the Centers for Disease Control allowing cruising to resume in the U.S. Follow this link, if you haven't already, and let your thoughts be made known.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=CDC-2020-0087-0001

 

There is a blue button over on the right side that says "Comment Now!" Click it and you're on your way.

[grsnovi]

In the grand scheme of COVID problems I don't think that the cruise industry was any worse than some countries. What was worse was the hysteria surrounding the ships that were en-route and who were unable to dock to let passengers and crew off. I thought I'd go over to the site and perhaps post a comment however the number and details of the questions seems to suggest that any analysis of the answers will run to years and be irrelevant to any decision. A large % of the population seems to ignore the CDC's guidelines on masks, why should we expect comments on this to carry any more weight? Sorry for being negative, the wild fires here in Oregon are of more concern to me at the moment than the possibility of cruising again in 2022 or 23...

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, grsnovi said:

In the grand scheme of COVID problems I don't think that the cruise industry was any worse than some countries. What was worse was the hysteria surrounding the ships that were en-route and who were unable to dock to let passengers and crew off. I thought I'd go over to the site and perhaps post a comment however the number and details of the questions seems to suggest that any analysis of the answers will run to years and be irrelevant to any decision. A large % of the population seems to ignore the CDC's guidelines on masks, why should we expect comments on this to carry any more weight? Sorry for being negative, the wild fires here in Oregon are of more concern to me at the moment than the possibility of cruising again in 2022 or 23...

I would remind you that just a few short months ago it was the CDC who warned that wearing masks could be dangerous.  And about a week ago it was the CDC who said that folks who were near folks with COVID no longer needed to be tested....until they reversed that decision today and now say they should be tested.  So put simply the CDC recommended testing before they recommended no testing before they again recommended testing.  And with masks they recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.  So perhaps you get the picture.  And I would add that WHO has even done the same thing as they also recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.

 

So the reality is when you want to look for COVID advice you need to consider whether you want to follow what they said yesterday, today, or what they will say tomorrow (which will undoubtedly  be different then what they said today.  By the way, for mask wearers (count me in that crowd)  what kind of mask is adequate?  N95, KN95, nothing 95, etc.  

 

Hank

[RocketMan275]

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I would remind you that just a few short months ago it was the CDC who warned that wearing masks could be dangerous.  And about a week ago it was the CDC who said that folks who were near folks with COVID no longer needed to be tested....until they reversed that decision today and now say they should be tested.  So put simply the CDC recommended testing before they recommended no testing before they again recommended testing.  And with masks they recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.  So perhaps you get the picture.  And I would add that WHO has even done the same thing as they also recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.

 

So the reality is when you want to look for COVID advice you need to consider whether you want to follow what they said yesterday, today, or what they will say tomorrow (which will undoubtedly  be different then what they said today.  By the way, for mask wearers (count me in that crowd)  what kind of mask is adequate?  N95, KN95, nothing 95, etc.  

 

Hank

Some say "We need to follow the science."  Well, which science should we follow?

 

Then someone says "Facts change, so does the science."  Well, what makes you think we have all the facts now?

Edited September 18, 2020 by RocketMan275

[bcummin]

We are still learning.

And we need to be careful who we listen to.

Barbara

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, jhannah said:

September 21 is the deadline for submitting comments with regard to the Centers for Disease Control allowing cruising to resume in the U.S. Follow this link, if you haven't already, and let your thoughts be made known.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=CDC-2020-0087-0001

 

There is a blue button over on the right side that says "Comment Now!" Click it and you're on your way.

 

I investigated the site and found quite a great deal to "wade" through that I did not think was pertinent to me as a guest.  

 

The "practice" of having public comment for various possible governmental decisions occurs on all levels of government.  Rarely, in my experience, has what the public offered made much, if any, impact.  The "decisions" that were published were already agreed to by "the authorities"--whomever they may be--and "that's the way it's going to be".  (If anyone wants me to provide a local example, I can do so without any problem.)  

 

Whatever we, the cruising public, say won't make an iota's worth of difference to the bureaucrats in charge.  

[kevingastreich]

59 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

By the way, for mask wearers (count me in that crowd)  what kind of mask is adequate?  N95, KN95, nothing 95, etc.  

 

Hank

At work, they make us wear the KN95 mask. The ironic thing is KN95 masks are made in China!  It's like going to war and buying your ammo from the enemy! 

[Hlitner]

41 minutes ago, kevingastreich said:

At work, they make us wear the KN95 mask. The ironic thing is KN95 masks are made in China!  It's like going to war and buying your ammo from the enemy! 

My DW was in the hospital for a few days last week.  When I went to visit (several times a day) I wore one of my trusty N95 masks.  Most of the nursing staff were wearing normal surgical masks (not even close to N95s) and the attending physician was wearing a KN95!  Go figure.

 

Hank

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Some say "We need to follow the science."  Well, which science should we follow?

 

Then someone says "Facts change, so does the science."  Well, what makes you think we have all the facts now?

 

Is it any wonder that many Americans are confused, frustrated, and beginning not to believe anyone (science or not) about Covid?

 

I looked at that CDC comments page and thought good grief, How can anyone, cruise lines or passengers know enough to answer these questions.

[npcl]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I would remind you that just a few short months ago it was the CDC who warned that wearing masks could be dangerous.  And about a week ago it was the CDC who said that folks who were near folks with COVID no longer needed to be tested....until they reversed that decision today and now say they should be tested.  So put simply the CDC recommended testing before they recommended no testing before they again recommended testing.  And with masks they recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.  So perhaps you get the picture.  And I would add that WHO has even done the same thing as they also recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.

 

So the reality is when you want to look for COVID advice you need to consider whether you want to follow what they said yesterday, today, or what they will say tomorrow (which will undoubtedly  be different then what they said today.  By the way, for mask wearers (count me in that crowd)  what kind of mask is adequate?  N95, KN95, nothing 95, etc.  

 

Hank

it turns out the testing announcement that was later revokef was not generated by CDC, it did not go through CDC review, it was generated by HHS over CDC objections.

 

just as HHS legal took away FDA s authority for regulating and requiring approval for tests, leaving it up to labs to self regulate, after fda would not do what hhs wanted.

 

if you want to see where the mess is really occurring look at the upper levels of HHS

Edited September 19, 2020 by npcl

[npcl]

1 hour ago, SJSULIBRARIAN said:

 

Is it any wonder that many Americans are confused, frustrated, and beginning not to believe anyone (science or not) about Covid?

 

I looked at that CDC comments page and thought good grief, How can anyone, cruise lines or passengers know enough to answer these questions.

most of the comments will be rated as not being relevant because they are not addressed to or answer any specific question.

 

The rfi is not aimed at the general public, even though many will post comments. it is aimed at professionals in relevant specialties that do have knowledge to answer on or more questions.

[npcl]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I investigated the site and found quite a great deal to "wade" through that I did not think was pertinent to me as a guest.  

 

The "practice" of having public comment for various possible governmental decisions occurs on all levels of government.  Rarely, in my experience, has what the public offered made much, if any, impact.  The "decisions" that were published were already agreed to by "the authorities"--whomever they may be--and "that's the way it's going to be".  (If anyone wants me to provide a local example, I can do so without any problem.)  

 

Whatever we, the cruising public, say won't make an iota's worth of difference to the bureaucrats in charge.  

having been on the other side of an rfi they are usually used to gain information while deciding if a new regulation is needed and what such a regulation need to include. when an rfi is used the decisions are not already determined.

 

this is unlike an request for comment  which deals with an already drafted regulation

 

the cruising public's comments will not make any difference because almost all of those comment do not address or answer any of the question. if they do not address any of the question they will be considered to be not relevant to the rfi.

 

answers that do address specific question will be taken into account.

 

there are a couple of questions concerning refunds that cruisers could easily provide input and be considered to be relevant.

[PoolSlider]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I would remind you that just a few short months ago it was the CDC who warned that wearing masks could be dangerous.  And about a week ago it was the CDC who said that folks who were near folks with COVID no longer needed to be tested....until they reversed that decision today and now say they should be tested.  So put simply the CDC recommended testing before they recommended no testing before they again recommended testing.  And with masks they recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.  So perhaps you get the picture.  And I would add that WHO has even done the same thing as they also recommended not wearing masks before they recommended wearing masks.

 

So the reality is when you want to look for COVID advice you need to consider whether you want to follow what they said yesterday, today, or what they will say tomorrow (which will undoubtedly  be different then what they said today.  By the way, for mask wearers (count me in that crowd)  what kind of mask is adequate?  N95, KN95, nothing 95, etc.  

 

Hank

I work in healthcare. We don’t follow the guidance of political appointees. We follow the guidance of our doctors and scientists. Directives have not changed since March for us in our offices and clinics. Masks are required. Period. There has been no confusion. I’m sorry for anyone who believes in politicians. N95s are great in a clinical setting. In an office, social distancing, temp checks, and masks which are now readily available in club stores, pharmacies, and dept stores are accepted but our team tends to find masks which allow PM2.5 filters to be added to mask pockets. 

[DeeniEncinitas]

7 minutes ago, PoolSlider said:

I work in healthcare. We don’t follow the guidance of political appointees. We follow the guidance of our doctors and scientists. Directives have not changed since March for us in our offices and clinics. Masks are required. Period. There has been no confusion. I’m sorry for anyone who believes in politicians. N95s are great in a clinical setting. In an office, social distancing, temp checks, and masks which are now readily available in club stores, pharmacies, and dept stores are accepted but our team tends to find masks which allow PM2.5 filters to be added to mask pockets. 

Thank you!! And a big Thank you for your service!

Denise😊 

[grsnovi]

18 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I would remind you...

Thanks Hank, the CDC certainly isn't perfect.

My point was that: the population of individuals on cruise ships that were sick is/was a fraction of the population in the USA who eventually sickened and ultimately passed away. I suspect that those who are still ending up in hospitals are individuals who have decided that they don't need to limit their excursions out of the house and who haven't been wearing masks at all because they feel that being told is infringing on their rights to be self-determining.

[RocketMan275]

18 hours ago, bcummin said:

We are still learning.

And we need to be careful who we listen to.

Barbara

 

 “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

[RocketMan275]

17 hours ago, SJSULIBRARIAN said:

 

Is it any wonder that many Americans are confused, frustrated, and beginning not to believe anyone (science or not) about Covid?

You left out 'frightened' and 'afraid'.  The changing guidance and recommendations contribute to that as does the our politicized environment.

[AllenF]

Let me start by saying I travel for a living since December when I was working in Taiwan I have flown counting connections 52 * this past June I had a heart attack on the golf course didn't even know I had heart disease I had a stent put in and I'm doing fine I am in my upper 50s age-wise so you might say I'm at risk my heart attack only kept me in the hospital for 2 days and I returned work within 5 days and traveling has continued for work I work in the nuclear industry so we started wearing masks taking precautions yada yada yada I also have been tested numerous times by work for me to be able to access power plants now you might say what is all this leading to well if I haven't caught it by now actually I have not been checked for the antibodies so maybe I did catch it and didn't have any symptoms who knows the bottom line for me is I will continue to live my life I will do what is required for me to go anywhere as far as masking social distancing Etc whether I believe it or not is this disease deadly yes people have died but not like they said they would and it's only slightly worse than the normal flu time for people to live again in my opinion there's always been things that will kill you lifestyles come to mind I mean if you're really concerned about your health have you took a look at the obesity issue we have now there's lots of things to worry about when your health comes to mine I exercise regularly yet I had heart disease didn't even know it you need to make the choice for you and your family what you think is best me my choice his to get back to living and wish everyone safe travels and a good life

[Hlitner]

Some of us have chosen to "live" with COVID rather then waste away in our basements.  I prefer to call it "living intelligently with COVID" which means staying well informed and using lots of common sense.  When I worked as a volunteer first responder (paramedic and firefighter) assuming risk came with the territory and common sense was often the difference between life and death.   Over 35 years ago I attended a HIV/AIDs conference where I first heard a young Dr. Tony Fauci speak.  Even at that time many of us considered Dr. Fauci an extraordinary physician/scientist.  At the time we were all wrestling with a new disease (HIV/AIDs) and when asked a tough question Dr. Fauci responded, "we do not know what we do not know."  And that is the current situation with COVID.  Although we know a lot more then we did 6 months ago we still do not know what we do not know.   And that is frightening to many folks not used to dealing with new diseases.

 

DW and I made a decision back in May to get back to living and accept that we must make some adjustments because of COVID.  So, when we spent 2 weeks on vacation in South Carolina (a hot spot at the time) we went out of our way to social distance and chose our restaurants very carefully.   When we spend the winter again living in Mexico (another COVID hot spot) we will use a lot of common sense and likely forego some of our normal activities.  But what we will not do is spend the next few months, years, or possibly a lifetime hiding in our basement!   My only question to those who continue to hide in their basements is "what will you do if COVID is here forever and a safe/effective vaccine is never brought to market?"    Folks need to learn to live intelligently with this new disease which does not mean hiding in fear for months, years, or possibly forever.  The words of FDR again ring true which is "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."

 

Hank

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, npcl said:

the cruising public's comments will not make any difference because almost all of those comment do not address or answer any of the question. if they do not address any of the question they will be considered to be not relevant to the rfi.

 

answers that do address specific question will be taken into account.

 

 

The reference in my post to the request for citizen feedback specifically addressed the issue of which I was concerned as well as numerous families who live in my area ought to be concerned.  My comment will be ignored because the decision has been made that the project being proposed must take place.  I am reasonably certain.  Check back with me in 2023 if we are both living.  And, online.  That's when the project is supposed to occur.    

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Some of us have chosen to "live" with COVID rather then waste away in our basements.  I prefer to call it "living intelligently with COVID" which means staying well informed and using lots of common sense

 

I prefer to think that I am living in my "bubble".  (Besides, I don't have a basement.😀)

 

Each of my doctors that I have visited this Summer when in-restaurant dining was again permitted in Ohio, I asked this question.  What is your opinion of in-restaurant dining?  50% said it was OK.  50% has said it's too risky.  With the recent CDC news about a seeming relationship between in-restaurant dining and the development of a positive test for Covid, what do you think my "common sense" is telling me to do? 

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I prefer to think that I am living in my "bubble".  (Besides, I don't have a basement.😀)

 

Each of my doctors that I have visited this Summer when in-restaurant dining was again permitted in Ohio, I asked this question.  What is your opinion of in-restaurant dining?  50% said it was OK.  50% has said it's too risky.  With the recent CDC news about a seeming relationship between in-restaurant dining and the development of a positive test for Covid, what do you think my "common sense" is telling me to do? 

Guess we are getting a bit off topic, but DW and I have had some long discussions about dining out at restaurants.  When we spent a week in Myrtle Beach (where restaurants were permitted to operate at 50% of capacity) we debated whether to simply eat in (we had a condo) or dine out at our favorite restaurants.  We made the decision to dine out because it is something we really enjoy and we thought the risk was reasonable (but there was certainly risk).  On the way home we stopped in Washington DC where we went out to our favorite French restaurant which only had 9 patrons when we dined.  To be honest, we had more fear about running into "peaceful demonstrators" then of COVID.  We had decided that whenever we go into a restaurant we would assess the situation and leave if it did "not feel right."  So far we have not had to walk out of any restaurant.  We also have an upcoming trip where we will be spending some time in a few places within Florida and we will again dine out with some degree of caution.  

 

For us, the price of locking  down (for what could be years) is too high a price to achieve a higher level of safety.  I have been an adventurous traveler for much of my life (you will seldom find us on an excursion or group tour) and dealing with disease is simply one more risk that is part of life.   Where we live in Mexico has had its issues with Dengue Fever and some parasites but we choose to roll the dice, take basic precautions, and continue to live in Mexico.   To be honest, I do not think DW and I have ever wasted more then a few seconds thinking about the risk of living in Mexico.  We only think about how awful it would be if we could not return to a place we love.  And it is the same with COVID.  We will be cautious, but that does not mean letting this virus completely upend our life. A friend who is even more adventurous then me likes to say that when she is lying on her deathbed she wants to think about all the wonderful things she has done rather then have regrets about the things she did not do.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

10 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

A friend who is even more adventurous then me likes to say that when she is lying on her deathbed she wants to think about all the wonderful things she has done rather then have regrets about the things she did not do.

 

Hank

 

Perhaps it has to do with one's stage of life, but my feeling is that I have time to wait a year or two before resuming my travels. I have traveled extensively for someone my age, but I also have years of travel ahead of me, knock on wood and no COVID.  If I were to go traveling now and contract COVID, my fear isn't just that I would die but that I would be debilitated in some way that would make it more difficult for me to enjoy my retirement years (in which travel figures extensively). 

 

As I am otherwise healthy right now, the only way I would be "lying on my deathbed" soon would likely be the result of an unexpected accident....or a pandemic.

 

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Guess we are getting a bit off topic,

 

I don't think we are getting off topic.  Restarting cruising is as important to many of us as being able to restart other parts of our life.

 

There is so much in your post to which I agree.  Your last sentence is very meaningful to me.  When I retired, my doctor's advice was "don't go home and sit in your Lazy-Boy watching TV all the time.  If you do, you won't be around for very long".  I haven't and I am still here by the Grace of God.  Your friend's thoughts near her end are what I hope my thoughts will be.  

 

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

To be honest, we had more fear about running into "peaceful demonstrators" then of COVID.  We had decided that whenever we go into a restaurant we would assess the situation and leave if it did "not feel right."  So far we have not had to walk out of any restaurant

 

I got a chuckle when I read this first sentence.  Only once have I ever walked out of a restaurant and that was because my party and me sat-sat-and sat-without getting any service whatsoever after being seated.  The CDC report alarms me with regard to in-restaurant dining and a positive Covid test.  People have to remove their masks when they dine.  People talk while eating.  That's when the virus, if they have it, could escape into the air.  Even with social distancing in a restaurant, how well am I going to be protected?  

 

I appreciate your reasoned posts on this subject.  It's good to have a view that is somewhat different from mine as I try to find a "comfortable" position in this situation for myself.  

[Hlitner]

I really don't have an answer to the restaurant risk.  We have also seen the latest report which does seem to show a legitimate correlation  between dining out and COVID.  To be very honest, when we were going out in Myrtle Beach (8 restaurants in 7 days) we had one concern which was dealing with a waiter.  The social distancing in the restaurants was fine, but we did have to deal with our waiters (who were always masked).  Our of respect to the wait staff DW and I did wear our masks when ordering meals but once the drinks and food arrived the mask had to disappear.  When we live in Puerto Vallarta (during the winter) we normally eat out more then 70 times over a couple of months.  At this point we have no clue how this will all work, but we will certainly use common sense and do our best to minimize the risk.  That being said there is risk to just about anything in life and we acknowledge that once you leave the basement your risk does increase.  

 

I had to smile at Cruisemom's post as we always suspected she is really a teenager at heart :).  I hope we live long enough to someday meet Cruisemom somewhere in Rome or elsewhere in Italy :).  We will even buy the wine :).  Our health is also good (but we are not as young as Cruisemom) and we sure hope we have a few more good travel years.  2020 has really been an awful travel year (for everyone) and we lost out on a long trip to Asia, two trips to Europe and a Caribbean cruise.  We would have replaced the lost cruises with a long trip to Europe (where we simply rent/lease a car and go) but the Europeans made it clear they did not want any Americans :(.   Even our Canadian friends made it clear that we are persona non grata which made me very sad since we missed our annual trip to some decent Canadian wineries and a few days at our favorite B&B (which was forced to close because of the lack of tourism).  

 

I do believe that travel will return in 2021 although we have our doubts about cruising.  If we cannot cruise we will look at other options (if any country will have us).  If all else fails we will simply spend some quality time traveling in the USA.

 

Hank