Princess to submit protocol to CDC next week

[npcl]

https://www.porthole.com/princess-cruises-jan-swartz-cruise-line-interview/

[caribill]

Thanks

[eamondzhang]

Well that's good to hear - it means at least we're one step closer to actual resumption of cruise activities

 

Michael

[BirdTravels]

It's a tough sell to convince the world that you're safe to resume. Fingers crossed. 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, BirdTravels said:

It's a tough sell to convince the world that you're safe to resume. Fingers crossed. 

I would like to see the protocols more for entertainment value than the expectation that it will convince me cruising will be safe.

 

the only way to prevent spead on a cruise ship is to keep it entirely off of the ship. Something very difficult to do with this illness and testing technology.

[jondfk]

I'm happy to see Princess (more likely CCL Corporation) submit their proposed plans.

 

At this stage they have no choice but to start with what RCL & NCL have already submitted and proposed something additional.   

The problem with being last (to submit) is that you've let someone else define the minimum expectations, there's no point arguing you're going to do less than the competition have already signed up for.

 

Still, nothing will happen until the plan is approved, and that can't happen until there is a 'plan'.

 

[suekel]

17 hours ago, npcl said:

I would like to see the protocols more for entertainment value than the expectation that it will convince me cruising will be safe.

 

the only way to prevent spead on a cruise ship is to keep it entirely off of the ship. Something very difficult to do with this illness and testing technology.

I think by January, instant testing or at home testing will become the norm.  At my hospital we're testing out a new nasal swab that just goes a bit into the nose, so easy it can be done at home and dropped off at a lab.  But, I think all this leads to will be testing that takes an hour or less, can be done at embarkation.  Israel is making strides on this too.  

[azbirdmom]

1 hour ago, jondfk said:

I'm happy to see Princess (more likely CCL Corporation) submit their proposed plans.

 

At this stage they have no choice but to start with what RCL & NCL have already submitted and proposed something additional.   

The problem with being last (to submit) is that you've let someone else define the minimum expectations, there's no point arguing you're going to do less than the competition have already signed up for.

 

Still, nothing will happen until the plan is approved, and that can't happen until there is a 'plan'.

 

 

Agree with you on starting with that submission which is here:  https://www.royalcaribbeangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Healthy-Sail-Panel_Full-Recommendations_9.21.20_FINAL.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2nJizdz_Ie17o36Pr_Dn_il71TKGQp8W50u2v1mTxmYTEUQ6ZgucH-MGA

[npcl]

18 minutes ago, suekel said:

I think by January, instant testing or at home testing will become the norm.  At my hospital we're testing out a new nasal swab that just goes a bit into the nose, so easy it can be done at home and dropped off at a lab.  But, I think all this leads to will be testing that takes an hour or less, can be done at embarkation.  Israel is making strides on this too.  

the problem with covid is the limitations in testing due to the nature of the virus. a test cannot detect the virus if it is not present in the sample. even pcr has a 20% false negative rate.

 

 

[caribill]

The cruise industry will implement these COVID-19 precautions: testing, masks, ventilation, more

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/21/cruise-covid-19-precautions-industry-mandates-testing-masks-more/5839777002/?for-guid=6e3b0242-45e5-11ea-88fe-12ccee11deff&utm_

 

 

[portiemom]

36 minutes ago, npcl said:

the problem with covid is the limitations in testing due to the nature of the virus. a test cannot detect the virus if it is not present in the sample. even pcr has a 20% false negative rate.

 

 

That limitation -- that the viral particles must be present -- is not exclusive to SARS-CoV-2. All PCR tests require the target to be present. All laboratory tests have false negative and false positive rates. All laboratory test results must be interpreted with the patient's full clinical picture in mind. Nothing exclusive to COVID.

[npcl]

32 minutes ago, portiemom said:

That limitation -- that the viral particles must be present -- is not exclusive to SARS-CoV-2. All PCR tests require the target to be present. All laboratory tests have false negative and false positive rates. All laboratory test results must be interpreted with the patient's full clinical picture in mind. Nothing exclusive to COVID.

no but what is unique to Covid is trying to use testing to keep people off ship. what is also somewhat unique to covid is the issues getting a detectable sample even with serious cases.

 

According to a John Hopkins study the chance of a false negative is at best 20% at 7 days, and much worse earlier or later(as high as 80%, mostly around 40%)  while other illnesses also will have false negative rates with PCR, Covid is one of the worst. Combine that with asymptomatic spread and the fact that the faster tests tend to be even less accurate than pcr you have a problem waiting to happen if you depend too much on testing.

 

The test is better to see the amount of cases in the boarding population. based upon studies if you detect no or 1 case the odds are in your favor that the cruise is covid free, if you detect 10 let's say, the odds are pretty high that you will have cases slip through.

Edited September 21, 2020 by npcl

[Tak8]

Anything that gets us closer to safe crusing sounds good.

[Ken the cruiser]

We're in central Alabama. Where does one go to get a COVID test when you don't have any symptoms, but need to get a certificate within 5 days of the cruise saying you tested negative?

[npcl]

15 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

We're in central Alabama. Where does one go to get a COVID test when you don't have any symptoms, but need to get a certificate within 5 days of the cruise saying you tested negative?

ordered by your doctor, urgent care facility or lab. problem is since it is not a medical necessity, your insurance company may not pay for it and the tests can get rather pricey since for medically required tests the insurance company is mandated to pay full price.

[NSWP]

Princess will follow the RCI plan, for sure. Someone will have to pay for all this, guess who?

Edited September 21, 2020 by NSWP

[Ken the cruiser]

2 minutes ago, npcl said:

ordered by your doctor, urgent care facility or lab. problem is since it is not a medical necessity, your insurance company may not pay for it and the tests can get rather pricey since for medically required tests the insurance company is mandated to pay full price.

Thanks! Right now we don't have a b2b cruise booked until early January, and those might still get cancelled as they are each longer than 5-7 days. But I guess we'll be contacting both of those offices well in advance to see if there is any expected time delay between ordering the test and having it administered. 

[Jaymuxman]

I am not too terribly interesting in cruising if I have to follow the submission that RCL and Norwegian presented.  Our next cruise is a 14 day Caribbean cruise and they are suggesting nothing longer than 10 days) and if we can't get off the ship except to go on a ship arranged excursion, I will pass. I take Caribbean cruises to go shopping and have seen most of all of the sites in islands I want to see. 

 

[coo359a2]

36 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

We're in central Alabama. Where does one go to get a COVID test when you don't have any symptoms, but need to get a certificate within 5 days of the cruise saying you tested negative?

 We live in central Alabama too (jefferson county).  Would be interested in what you find out. Right now our insurance requires the test to be ordered and if it isn't they don't cover the cost.  Our DIL found this out when she went to a clinic and asked to be tested and then was sent the bill.

 

  DH and I did get to take a  Covid test due to Gov talking with Surgeon General and White House.  Since they determined our county plus Tuscaloosa to be hot spots, we got   a free Covid test - done as a drive through at two locations in our county  but you had to do the swabbing yourself.  Someone did stand at your car window giving directions on what to do.  

[Ken the cruiser]

7 minutes ago, coo359a2 said:

 We live in central Alabama too (jefferson county).  Would be interested in what you find out. Right now our insurance requires the test to be ordered and if it isn't they don't cover the cost.  Our DIL found this out when she went to a clinic and asked to be tested and then was sent the bill.

 

  DH and I did get to take a  Covid test due to Gov talking with Surgeon General and White House.  Since they determined our county plus Tuscaloosa to be hot spots, we got   a free Covid test - done as a drive through at two locations in our county  but you had to do the swabbing yourself.  Someone did stand at your car window giving directions on what to do.  

We're in Elmore County but probably won't be checking on this for a few months, so a lot can change between now and then. That is unless the DW decides she wants to go on one of the yet to be scheduled start up cruises in the next couple of months.

[spyro1952]

6 hours ago, jondfk said:

I'm happy to see Princess (more likely CCL Corporation) submit their proposed plans.

 

At this stage they have no choice but to start with what RCL & NCL have already submitted and proposed something additional.   

The problem with being last (to submit) is that you've let someone else define the minimum expectations, there's no point arguing you're going to do less than the competition have already signed up for.

 

Still, nothing will happen until the plan is approved, and that can't happen until there is a 'plan'.

 

I would bet that all the protocols will look the same so anyone would know one cruise lines should be as safe as the other

[Ombud]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

We're in central Alabama. Where does one go to get a COVID test when you don't have any symptoms, but need to get a certificate within 5 days of the cruise saying you tested negative?

Does CVS / Kaiser / County test in your area too? Most results take only 24-48 hrs now (or so Gov Newsom keeps saying but I don't need a test)

[mnocket]

6 hours ago, caribill said:

The cruise industry will implement these COVID-19 precautions: testing, masks, ventilation, more

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/09/21/cruise-covid-19-precautions-industry-mandates-testing-masks-more/5839777002/?for-guid=6e3b0242-45e5-11ea-88fe-12ccee11deff&utm_

 

 

 

Here's a more detailed summary of the RCCL protocols from their blog.....

 

https://www.*****.com/2020/09/21/royal-caribbean-new-cruise-ship-health-protocols-include-wearing-masks-social-distancing

(Sorry, I have no idea why it won't post the url properly.  Perhaps Cruise Critic blocks the RCCL blog because they see it as competition? I guess you'll have to navigate to the RCCL blog yourself to see the protocol - hint, just replace the ***** with royal caribbean blog with no spaces)

 

I'm sure people will interpret this differently.  As for me, I'm a bit disappointed that they aren't more specific.  For example, they state......

 

Cruise operators should have a thorough mobilization response plan in place prior to sailing to address the various scenarios that may require individuals with confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection (guests or crew), and their close contacts, to debark from the ship.

 

OK, but what is that "mobilization response plan"?  And why the use of "Should" and not "Shall"?

 

And this bothers me a bit....

 

 

31. All cruise operators should upgrade the HVAC systems on their ships to, ideally, MERV 13 filters to minimize pathogen dispersal from infected guests and crew.

32. Cruise operators’ indoor air management strategies should be optimized given the constraints of ship age and ventilation type.

 

"Ideally, MERV 13".  IDEALLY?  So that's not a minimum requirement - it's just a goal.

 

"strategies should be optimized given the constraints of ship age and ventilation type."  This makes it sound a bit like a "where possible" loophole.

 

And as for face masks - here's what they say....

 

To prevent the spread of SARS-CoV-2, cruise operators should require guests and crew to wear cloth face coverings/face masks in accordance with CDC recommendations.

 

Good, they settle the face mask vs shield issue.  Bad, the CDC guidelines are not specific to a cruise ship environment.  I'd like more details.  For instance, MSC requires you wear face masks while walking to your seat in the theater, but not while while seated in the theater.  RCCL should publish a more detailed face mask policy.

 

To summarize, it's a good start, but I was expecting more detail after all this time.  Will they have to, for example, still develop and submit for approval their "mobilization response plan" or "indoor air management strategies" before sailing, or is it sufficient that their protocol says they have them?

Edited September 22, 2020 by mnocket

[memoak]

I don’t see us cruising until there is a vaccine.  Safety first. 

[caribill]

15 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

Here's a more detailed summary of the RCCL protocols from their blog.....

 

https://www.*****.com/2020/09/21/royal-caribbean-new-cruise-ship-health-protocols-include-wearing-masks-social-distancing

(Sorry, I have no idea why it won't post the url properly.  Perhaps Cruise Critic blocks the RCCL blog because they see it as competition? I guess you'll have to navigate to the RCCL blog yourself to see the protocol)

 

I'm sure people will interpret this differently.  As for me, I'm a bit disappointed that they aren't more specific.  For example, they state......

 

Cruise operators should have a thorough mobilization response plan in place prior to sailing to address the various scenarios that may require individuals with confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection (guests or crew), and their close contacts, to debark from the ship.

 

OK, but what is that "mobilization response plan"?  And why the use of "Should" and not "Shall"?

 

And this bothers me a bit....

 

 

31. All cruise operators should upgrade the HVAC systems on their ships to, ideally, MERV 13 filters to minimize pathogen dispersal from infected guests and crew.

32. Cruise operators’ indoor air management strategies should be optimized given the constraints of ship age and ventilation type.

 

"Ideally, MERV 13".  IDEALLY?  So that's not a minimum requirement - it's just a goal.

 

"strategies should be optimized given the constraints of ship age and ventilation type."  This makes it sound a bit like a "where possible" loophole.

 

And as for face masks - here's what they say....

 

To prevent the spread of SARS-CoV-2, cruise operators should require guests and crew to wear cloth face coverings/face masks in accordance with CDC recommendations.

 

Good, they settle the face mask vs shield issue.  Bad, the CDC guidelines are not specific to a cruise ship environment.  I'd like more details.  For instance, MSC requires you wear face masks while walking to your seat in the theater, but not while while seated in the theater.  RCCL should publish a more detailed face mask policy.

 

To summarize, it's a good start, but I was expecting more detail after all this time.  Will they have to, for example, still develop and submit for approval their "mobilization response plan" or "indoor air management strategies" before sailing, or is it sufficient that their protocol says they have them?

 

 

Although there are many questions to be answered, I view this document to be worded so that different cruise lines can meet it with their individual specifics which will vary from one cruise line to another and possible from ship to ship within the same cruise line.

 

Thus, for example, each cruise line would have its own "mobilization response plan" that would have to be acceptable, but not tied down to specific details that might be impossible for everyone (anyone?) to meet.

 

Thus the part where it mentions CDC guidelines for masks. When the CDC changes guidelines, the cruise lines know what to switch to. If details were instead built into the plans, then any change might have to be approved again for every cruise line.