CDC director overruled on cruise ship ban

[santos949]

11 hours ago, clo said:

You're excited that the White House is overruling the CDC. I'm amazed. You do realize that this is almost certainly politically motivated. Timing???

You are always looking for sources to back up claims that others make on these boards.  Where is your citation for your comment here?

Additionally, your comment is political (not allowed on these boards).  I very seldom comment/post. I read these boards because I love cruising and have really learned a lot on Cruise Critic.

 I grow so weary of your negativity.

[ErwinSchrodinger]

If it’s is a double blind study, how do you know if you got the vaccine or the placebo?

[redraider1966]

44 minutes ago, ErwinSchrodinger said:

If it’s is a double blind study, how do you know if you got the vaccine or the placebo?

+1.  CBS This Morning reports that FL's positivity rate is at least 10% and yet DeSantis opens everything up.  Let's check back in two weeks to see what case level/death rate looks like then.

[clo]

3 hours ago, santos949 said:

Additionally, your comment is political

I commented that the action was politically based. That's different than making a political statement. I seem to notice that a lot of people here want to cruise no matter what is going on. I just read that something like 27 states have had increases in cases in the last month. Couple that with what Redfield wanted and to me it's really clear that it's too soon.

[LHT28]

10 hours ago, the more ports the better said:

And yes, I am in the Pfizer study.  I’ve has the vaccine and the booster.

So  do they expose you to  people with COVID  to see if you are immune?

 

[LHT28]

8 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Count your blessings that they don't belong in this group which is quite common after COVID:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/06/covid-19-coronavirus-longterm-symptoms-months/612679/

yes some people  are left with  side effects  from the virus    so sad

I read about another person who was still sick 6 mts later  with the fatigue  & aches/pains  from it

There is still not enough info on this virus

 

 I know with SARS  a friend was locked down at the hospital  (a nurse)  after  she had  other things crop up like lung cancer  & breathing difficulties for years   she ended up passing away 2 yrs ago from brain cancer that had spread from other parts of her body

several of her co workers also passed away  within 10 yrs of Sars 

No one really knows how the Covid  virus will  react in people years from now

 

We are still taking precautions  

[ORV]

11 hours ago, the more ports the better said:

And yes, I am in the Pfizer study.  I’ve has the vaccine and the booster.

 

3 hours ago, ErwinSchrodinger said:

If it’s is a double blind study, how do you know if you got the vaccine or the placebo?

 

Actually Pfizer has their own Data Safety Monitoring Board and they have privately funded their research and didn't take any government money. They are not bound by some of the same rules that the companies that took the government funding. 

 

There's a certain freedom to that for the companies, but also to me the lack of outside oversight would be concerning. 

[ORV]

32 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

yes some people  are left with  side effects  from the virus    so sad

I read about another person who was still sick 6 mts later  with the fatigue  & aches/pains  from it

There is still not enough info on this virus

 

 I know with SARS  a friend was locked down at the hospital  (a nurse)  after  she had  other things crop up like lung cancer  & breathing difficulties for years   she ended up passing away 2 yrs ago from brain cancer that had spread from other parts of her body

several of her co workers also passed away  within 10 yrs of Sars 

No one really knows how the Covid  virus will  react in people years from now

 

We are still taking precautions  

Yes, there is still so much that medicine does not know about this. I hate to hear the untruths about younger people not being affected. Tell that to someone that has lost a young partner or child due to this. 

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, ORV said:

Yes, there is still so much that medicine does not know about this. I hate to hear the untruths about younger people not being affected. Tell that to someone that has lost a young partner or child due to this. 

Most of the new case in Ontario  are in the under 40's 

Our numbers on on the rise again 😞

[tennis]

“The more ports the better”:  You are right, the number of cases is not meaningful.  For it to be meaningful you have to know the population it is taken from.  Many people have multiple tests while they have Covid-19.  People are more likely to be tested if they are sick.  Tests are more readily available now and so more people get tested.  So we have no idea which population has been sampled.

 

My group of friends is the elderly segment of the population and I still only know one person who even had Covid and they have had no after effects.  Other people have different friends and will therefore see a different sample of the population.  However, many media outlets have worked overtime to make this seem worse than it is, so people are only told about bad news, not any of the good population samples.

 

Paul chili: The Atlantic does not have a reputation for accurate reporting but for opinion and editorial content so I wouldn’t use them as a reference point.  If you can give a link from the CDC that would be great.

 

If you do decide to cruise then you should be responsible for any of the outcomes. If you are not comfortable with any possible negative outcomes then don’t cruise.  But why someone would insist that adults who want to cruise and will be responsible for themselves should be prevented from cruising sounds like life when I lived in the Soviet Union.  No one is insisting that anyone else take a cruise.

 

[Redtravel]

14 hours ago, the more ports the better said:

Here in FL where many of the cruises originate, the state has been open for business since late May.  We peaked in late July/early August and our death rate is at 66 per 100,000, the same or less than many states that are still completely locked down.  We also have one of the oldest populations in the country. There is no rhyme or reason to the number of per capita deaths in various states (our only certain statistic)
 

I have been flying throughout the entire pandemic.  In March, flights were empty, my flights to and from Orlando have been full for the past two months and restaurants are very busy.  We spent a weekend at the beach a few weeks ago and our hotel was full.  We’ve been to Disney numerous times which, on the other hand, is never crowded. 

 

All the experts and politicians have ideas about how to run the country during the pandemic but COVID has a mind of its own.  Many ships are sailing without issue and some have had large outbreaks.  I think everyone has to decide what level of risk they are comfortable with, just like going to restaurants, shopping, hotels, theaters.....  I’ll for sure be on one of the first ships out as soon as sailings are announced and I can book, but I’ve had the vaccine so it’s not really an issue here.

What vaccine?

[Paulchili]

1 hour ago, tennis said:

 If you can give a link from the CDC that would be great.

You mean today's CDC aka White House?

How do you like these links?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update-36-long-term-symptoms.pdf?sfvrsn=5d3789a6_2

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

and if you insist here is one from CDC

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects.html

[ORV]

2 hours ago, tennis said:

However, many media outlets have worked overtime to make this seem worse than it is

As opposed to those that downplay it? 

[clo]

4 hours ago, LHT28 said:

Our numbers on on the rise again 😞

I read that 27 US states have had an increase.

[the more ports the better]

13 hours ago, ErwinSchrodinger said:

If it’s is a double blind study, how do you know if you got the vaccine or the placebo?

The placebo is saline.  If you get the vaccine, several hours after getting the injection, your arm begins to ache similar to a tetanus shot and it lasts for a few days.

 

We all asked the injector if they could put something in the placebo to mimic the sore arm viral response.  We were told absolutely not as the release we signed was for either the vaccine or simple saline solution.  I had  “tetanus shot arm ache” for several days with both the initial injection and the booster. It’s fairly unmistakable. 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, the more ports the better said:

The placebo is saline.  If you get the vaccine, several hours after getting the injection, your arm begins to ache similar to a tetanus shot and it lasts for a few days.

 

We all asked the injector if they could put something in the placebo to mimic the sore arm viral response.  We were told absolutely not as the release we signed was for either the vaccine or simple saline solution.  I had  “tetanus shot arm ache” for several days with both the initial injection and the booster. It’s fairly unmistakable. 

 

Studies have shown that saline injections can also cause reactions, so what you're experiencing does not prove you got the vaccine. Here are three papers discussing this issue. The third was recently written specifically about one of the major COVID-19 vaccine trials being conducted in the UK...and points out  the fallacy of the official reason given for using a meningitis vaccine rather than a saline injection as the placebo.

 

https://dm5migu4zj3pb.cloudfront.net/manuscripts/102000/102815/cache/102815.1-20140626150454-covered-253bed37ca4c1ab43d105aefdf7b5536.pdf

 

"3. Injection of hypertonic saline into muscle, about a tendon, or at a ligament caused pain and aching at the point of infiltration, usually associated with one or more of the following phenomena; radiating soreness or shooting pain at a distance, paresthesias, hyperesthesia of overlying skin, and/ or at a farther area, greatest tenderness to palpation at the point of injection, lesser soreness to palpation at a distant region, muscle "spasm," stiffness, and increased or decreased cutaneous temperature. 4. These complex but variable reactions were immediately or quickly provoked. Aching at the point of injection lasted for minutes to days. The other features disappeared rapidly when present. 5. Our data may be said to confirm the findings of Kellgren and Lewis only to the extent that pain always, and a local point of greatest soreness often, were induced at the site of injection."

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2005.pto_97108.x

 

"Hypotonic or hypertonic sodium chloride or potassium chloride causes pain when injected into human muscles or other deep tissues (Stohler et al. 1992; Graven-Nielsen et al. 1997a & b; Leffler et al. 2000; Svensson et al. 2000). Hypertonic saline has by far been the most used chemical substance to induce muscle pain and intramuscular injection of 4–6% sodium chloride in volunteers is a widely used method to induce human muscle pain (Graven-Nielsen et al. 1997a & b). The quality of the pain is comparable to clinical muscle pain with localised and referred pain (Graven-Nielsen et al. 1997a & b). The dominant sensation to hypertonic saline injected intramuscularly is deep diffuse pain after some latency corresponding with a major activation of Cfibres. Intramuscular injection of hypertonic saline is claimed to be a safe technique causing no adverse effects (Stohler & Lund 1994; Graven-Nielsen et al. 1997a & b). However, since the injection is rather painful, the injected hypertonic saline may have caused damage to the local tissue at the injection site"

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-health/placebos-used-vaccine-trials-do-not-please-everyone

 

"So now we arrive at a particularly tricky example: a trial where, by all indications, a saline placebo should be used but is not. A team in the United Kingdom is conducting a trial of a new COVID-19 vaccine (charmingly called ChAdOx1 nCOV-19) and they are comparing it not to a saline injection but to a vaccine against meningitis. It has been reported as the only frontrunner for a COVID-19 vaccine that is not using a true placebo as a control. The World Health Organization’s expert panel on placebos used in vaccine trials does underscore the validity of using a different vaccine as a control (one whose safety is well characterized), but notes that it “may also be less acceptable to regulators or public health authorities and potentially delay approval or adoption of a new vaccine.” I reached out to the team conducting the UK trial and was told the reason they changed their mind from using a saline injection to using the meningitis vaccine was that saline injections don’t cause a sore arm, which might unwittingly reveal to the volunteers what group they are in. No soreness after the injection? You may have received a placebo, which could alter your behaviour and thus add a nasty variable to explain away the results of the trial.

This official explanation, however, is questionable. Injecting a saline solution into a muscle can be associated with side effects, as many vaccine trials have demonstrated. "

 

[Paulchili]

30 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

This official explanation, however, is questionable. Injecting a saline solution into a muscle can be associated with side effects, as many vaccine trials have demonstrated. "

Interesting info - thanks.

[njhorseman]

4 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

Interesting info - thanks.

As the article states just before the sentence I highlighted in red,   it's actually desirable for the placebo injection to produce some side effects similar to what a vaccine injection produces because that helps preserve double blind nature of the trial. You don't want the participants to know what they received. In a double blind trial of an oral medication you don't have that problem as there's no way for the participants to distinguish one pill or tablet or capsule from another.

[GICNJC]

With President Trump testing posting for COVID19, I wonder if this will cause a reconsideration of the October 31 date.

[pinotlover]

40 minutes ago, GICNJC said:

With President Trump testing posting for COVID19, I wonder if this will cause a reconsideration of the October 31 date.

Unless he got it on a cruise ship what relevance would it have? 😂

 

President Trump tested positive for Covid-19, think they’ll shut down all the schools? Hmmm, don’t believe he caught it at a school either!

[clo]

55 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Unless he got it on a cruise ship what relevance would it have? 😂

 

President Trump tested positive for Covid-19, think they’ll shut down all the schools? Hmmm, don’t believe he caught it at a school either!

Yes, they should shut down the schools but education is a necessary thing and cruising isn't. I'm betting they go back to February.

[RJB]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Yes, they should shut down the schools but education is a necessary thing and cruising isn't. I'm betting they go back to February.

Makes a lot of sense to me.  Without a vaccine there should be no cruise ships allowed to sail from  or enter U.S. waters.  No need to take chances just for a vacation.

[njhorseman]

42 minutes ago, fyree39 said:

I was thinking to myself as I was reading through your post that this was finally a reasonable take on why people choose to do what they do during this pandemic. Then I got to this statement. You had a Covid vaccine? 

ETA: I see you were part of the study. You're like a superhero!

FYI, as I previously pointed out the poster was wrong when they said they knew they had the vaccine because they got a reaction after getting the injection. In fact studies have shown that saline can and does produce a reaction, and it's good that it does because that helps maintain the double blind aspect of the vaccine trial.

 

That having been said, I'll also say "Thank You" to the poster for volunteering to participate in a vaccine trial.

[susiesan]

3 hours ago, clo said:

Yes, they should shut down the schools but education is a necessary thing and cruising isn't. I'm betting they go back to February.

My husband is currently participating in a vaccine trial for the adenovirus, a respiratory one. There was a 25% chance he would get the placebo. After he got the shot he was mildly sick for a few days with a slight fever, chills, muscle aches. So he knows he got the vaccine. This study was comparing dosage levels, he does not know what dose he got.

[ORV]

5 hours ago, GICNJC said:

With President Trump testing posting for COVID19, I wonder if this will cause a reconsideration of the October 31 date.

Well there's hope in the air that they will sail after 10/31.