Carnival Corp ships will need court approval 60 days before restarting cruises, judge says

[caribill]

This for environmental reasons, not Covid-19. Applies to all Carnival owned brands including, of course, Princess:

 

A federal judge said she plans to require Carnival Corporation to certify that each of its cruise ships is compliant with its probation obligations 60 days before reentering U.S. waters to restart cruises.

 

The forthcoming order from U.S. District Judge for the Southern District of Florida Patricia Seitz could inhibit the company’s plans to resume cruise operations in the United States on Dec. 1. Seitz made the announcement at a status conference Friday in the company’s ongoing criminal case for environmental crimes.

Seitz said the order will require ships to notify her 60 days in advance of reentering U.S. waters, and each ship will have to have a certification from CEO Arnold Donald regarding its status of environmental compliance.

 

“I will determine whether the level of compliance...whether it is appropriate that that ship enter and operate in US waters,” she said.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article246504540.html

(may have a paywall)

 

[Syracusefan44]

The US District Court Judge assigned to the Carnival Corporation environmental case is requiring the CEO Arnold Donald to provide her with an environmental certification sixty days prior to any of their ships reentering United States water.  That means no Carnival Corp ships will not be departing on December 1st.

 

https://twitter.com/taydolven/status/1317219838583050240?s=21

Edited October 16, 2020 by Syracusefan44

[jhannah]

This is over-the-top in my opinion. Apparently she is happy to further damage the Florida and U.S. economy. Couldn't she phase her order in over time? So many people in the travel and cruise industry are badly hurting already. Judge, please don't make it worse!

[Tak8]

Those December cruises are looking less likely as each new cruise story comes out.

[foodsvcmgr]

Another witch hunt directed at the cruise industry - the whipping boy for all the ills of the world sadly.

[nocl]

18 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Another witch hunt directed at the cruise industry - the whipping boy for all the ills of the world sadly.

CCL certainly can blame themselves for the environmental issues, both from the point of the initial actions resulting in the felony conviction, then not following through on the commitments they made while under court supervision.

 

Since it will take that long to get the ships staffed and ready to sail anyway, this is basically notification to CCL not to overlook their environmental commitments as they return to service.

[LawDog61]

This look really serious.  My thoughts, in no particular order:

1) We are dedicated west coast princess cruisers and noted with interest RC’s vague statements about returning to the west coast.   We may end up needing them here.

2). Corporate assets can be sold to different companies (perhaps specifically formed for this purpose) so as  not to be subject to the order.

3). Certainly not in Florida, but which WOKE West Coast city  will the the first to simply ban cruise ships on environmental grounds? Los Angeles ? San Francisco? Seattle?

[franktown]

I'm a big CCL fan but agree with nocl post that Carnival by not following through with with their commitments while under court supervisions. brought this on themselves.  All she is asking is for them to be compliant with the already agreed upon probation obligations.  

Edited October 17, 2020 by franktown
correct

[getting older slowly]

Question... how many of Carnival Corporation ships are in US water's at the moment

 

I thought most were in Asia waters at the moment 

 

Don

[Thrak]

I understand the environmental issues and why many folks are upset about those issues. However, I'm sick of judges who think the word "judge" is the same as the word "god". It amazes me how some judge in Florida or some judge in California can decide what is "right and correct" for the whole dang country.

[nocl]

41 minutes ago, Thrak said:

I understand the environmental issues and why many folks are upset about those issues. However, I'm sick of judges who think the word "judge" is the same as the word "god". It amazes me how some judge in Florida or some judge in California can decide what is "right and correct" for the whole dang country.

However, in this case the Judge is the one that has been handling the environmental case for the entire CCL corporation and as such does have authority over the ships owned by the corporation when they are in US jurisdiction.

 

[nocl]

45 minutes ago, getting older slowly said:

Question... how many of Carnival Corporation ships are in US water's at the moment

 

I thought most were in Asia waters at the moment 

 

Don

Most CCL ships left during the COVID shutdown, because by doing so they did not have to report health information to the CDC.

 

The Judge is merely requiring that they provide the necessary information showing compliance with the the existing environmental orders they were issued under the court supervision when the corporation pled guilty to felony level environmental violations. That these certifications are provided 60 days prior to the ships operating in US waters.  No certifications, no US operations, even if the CDC no sail order is dropped.

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, jhannah said:

So many people in the travel and cruise industry are badly hurting already. Judge, please don't make it worse!

 

 

Guys,

 

This is the real problem...

 

 

[donaldsc]

6 hours ago, jhannah said:

This is over-the-top in my opinion. Apparently she is happy to further damage the Florida and U.S. economy. Couldn't she phase her order in over time? So many people in the travel and cruise industry are badly hurting already. Judge, please don't make it worse!

 

You are forgetting this little episode that Carnival did -

 

"Carnival has been on probation since April 2017 after pleading guilty to environmental crimes — dumping oily waste into the ocean for a period of eight years from its Princess Cruises ships — and paying a $40 million fine. In June 2019, the company pleaded guilty again to violating probation, paid a $20 million fine and agreed to more strict oversight during its remaining years on probation. Throughout its probation, the company has continued to violate environmental laws."

 

The cheated and broke the law on environmental pollution.  While they were on probation, they did it again.  If they were a person and not a company, they would have been thrown back into jail.  Their 5 year probation period ends in 2022.  Maybe the senior company executives should be sentenced to spend a significant time in jail. 

 

If the court allows them to reopen, they will have almost 2 years left while they are on probation to continue to pollute.  Remember that they pled guilty and did not disagree that they committed a serious violation of environmental laws. 

 

Please read this article - "https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229285319.html" and ask yourself if they deserve to be allowed to cruise.

 

The people in Florida might be hurting but the parts of the ecosystem that they destroyed are also hurting.

 

DON

Edited October 17, 2020 by donaldsc

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, nocl said:

CCL certainly can blame themselves for the environmental issues, both from the point of the initial actions resulting in the felony conviction, then not following through on the commitments they made while under court supervision.

 

Since it will take that long to get the ships staffed and ready to sail anyway, this is basically notification to CCL not to overlook their environmental commitments as they return to service.

In my opinion, the judge is showing prudence given the following circumstances:

1.  Carnival's past performance, or lack thereof, in environmental compliance

2.  The likely fact that the Carnival ships have not been under any Port State Control since the pandemic started, so no governmental oversight of their environmental compliance.

3.  The likely fact that the 3rd party auditors, and court appointed auditor assigned by the judge to monitor the probation have not been able to board the ships, whether due to travel restrictions here or in the countries where the ships are currently or due to Carnival simply denying boarding due to Covid concerns, and so there being no judicial oversight of their compliance.

 

Since, if I remember correctly, CEO Donald, among others, is both civilly and criminally liable for any future violations of the probation, making him certify that the ships are, and have been, compliant during this time of shutdown, places a huge burden on him for honesty and transparency, which will be proven or disproven when the auditors can board the ships and verify compliance.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, donaldsc said:

If the court allows them to reopen, they will have almost 2 years left while they are on probation to continue to pollute.  Remember that they pled guilty and did not disagree that they committed a serious violation of environmental laws.

While I agree with much that you have said, and have nothing but contempt for Carnival's corporate environmental culture in the past, let me make a comment about this "continue to pollute".  The initial cause of the case, the discharge of gray water by a Princess ship that had made its way into the bilges, has never been shown by any agency to actually have caused any pollution, since the discharge of gray water is not illegal, and there was no way (since the violation was for working around the oil content meter on the oil/water separator) to know if any oil was actually discharged.  Also, most of the violations noted by the auditors during the initial probation also did not involve actual pollution, but record keeping violations.  While these violations are still serious, and Carnival should be held to the same standards as every other ship on the oceans, I for one cannot condemn them as "major polluters".

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Thrak said:

I understand the environmental issues and why many folks are upset about those issues. However, I'm sick of judges who think the word "judge" is the same as the word "god". It amazes me how some judge in Florida or some judge in California can decide what is "right and correct" for the whole dang country.

Well, the "whole dang country" passed the laws that Carnival decided to flout, repeatedly.  And, since she is a federal judge, she has the right to uphold those laws passed by the "whole dang country" (as well as most of the world).  You could just as easily ask why, "some bureaucrat in Washington can decide what is right for the whole dang country".  Who brought the case to the DOJ for prosecution in the first place?  USCG.  Gonna question their right to decide what's right for the country?

Edited October 17, 2020 by chengkp75

[ontheweb]

Just echoing what others have said. They are on probation because they violated the law. They pled guilty and accepted the terms of the probation. They have only themselves to blame for this further complication for their return to cruising.

[skynight]

8 hours ago, getting older slowly said:

Question... how many of Carnival Corporation ships are in US water's at the moment

 

I thought most were in Asia waters at the moment 

 

Don

Cruise tracker shows 3 CCL ships near the Florida coast, possibly in U.S. waters. There are 10 more CCL ships nearby in Bahamas' waters. The other corporate brands are in Europe and Asia with a few in the Caribbean/Panama area. 

[PrincessLuver]

10 hours ago, franktown said:

I'm a big CCL fan but agree with nocl post that Carnival by not following through with with their commitments while under court supervisions. brought this on themselves.  All she is asking is for them to be compliant with the already agreed upon probation obligations.  

 

I think we all can agree that we appreciate a judge who enforces law and order in the USA....nobody is above the law including CCL....

Edited October 17, 2020 by PrincessLuver

[voljeep]

Hmmm , so when will Princess ( and others ) step up and announce another "Pause" .. still showing a cruise departing on 12/16 - the "Diamond Princess" in Japan / China ... yeah, right

[Potstech]

19 minutes ago, PrincessLuver said:

 

I think we all can agree that we appreciate a judge who enforces law and order in the USA....nobody is above the law including CCL....

Nobody is above the law is one of the biggest lies going around this century.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Potstech

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, voljeep said:

Hmmm , so when will Princess ( and others ) step up and announce another "Pause" .. still showing a cruise departing on 12/16 - the "Diamond Princess" in Japan / China ... yeah, right

Well, the Diamond Princess in Japan/China has nothing to do with either the judge's order or the CDC, so this topic does not apply.

[voljeep]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, the Diamond Princess in Japan/China has nothing to do with either the judge's order or the CDC, so this topic does not apply.

point taken

 

then how about the Caribbean cruises on 12/19, and 12/20/20 - still able to book those also - and those are definitely covered by this topic Chief 

[chengkp75]

27 minutes ago, voljeep said:

point taken

 

then how about the Caribbean cruises on 12/19, and 12/20/20 - still able to book those also - and those are definitely covered by this topic Chief 

If Donald gets his finger out, those are still outside the 60 window, though not looking real good.  If the company has been in compliance, the documentation should be ready to submit anyway, so it would just be a matter of the judge's review.