No Sail Order Lifted

[nocl]

45 minutes ago, triple7tahoe said:

We have a friend that works for Princess as a safety officer and he used to rotate between ships as scheduled. He has been at home in Poland for quite some time. Today he received orders and air line tickets to join the Regal Princess this week. He thinks that is a good sign that things will be getting started.

Unfortunately Regal is currently in the eastern med and scheduled for Europe until September 2021, so no indication about ramping up for US.

[memoak]

4 hours ago, Mike45LC said:

Well said.  Sanity!  Rationally presented, without any rancor or hostility.

 

I wear a mask when I go into a business.  It is required by law and it is polite and respectful to the business owner and his/her/its employees and customers.  But I do not believe that it does anything to protect me or others from the virus.

 

That is what Chris Christie thought 

[generichandle]

7 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

Not addressing your post per se, but have a few examples and would like your thoughts: 

 

1) Most science so far tells us once you get infected and have anti-bodies, you can not contract a high enough viral load to be infectious.  So, if people have already been confirmed to have it and now over it, should they be required to wear a mask?  Or should they wear a scarlet letter letting people know they are immune and not a carrier.

 

2) Do you know that science tells us it takes about 15 minutes of contact with a carrier to obtain a high enough viral load for you to get sick?  So, if you are wearing a clothe mask (which 99.999% of people wear) and someone with the virus coughs in the air, you unknowingly walk through it, the virus sticks to your mask, and you now breathe the virus in through that mask for however long you are wearing it, does that make the mask a safe haven or a petri dish?

 

The point is, there are mnay thoughts on the validity of wearing a mask...to include the health effects of wearing one for extended periods, so it's not so cut and dry that wearing one is good and not wearing one is bad.  There are too many variables to address.

 

yes, I wear one when in a store because I think it makes others feel more comfortable...not because I think it makes one iota of difference in me catching the virus.  And I have no issue of a store saying without one you can't enter.  But I also see people so scared to death by a false narrative that they even drive in their car alone with a mask on...which is very bad over time for their health.  Anyway, just a few thoughts.  Cheers!!!

Please give me a quotation of a study that describes your '15 minute' assertion. here is mine:

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas/articles/2020-10-30/top-public-health-official-in-topeka-area-to-step-down

 

I have never seen or heard about your assertion. But I HAVE seen several cases of people being re-infected.

 

My real question is why do so many people insist on 'proving their manhood' by ASSERTIVELY insisting on adopting this attitude of 'my liberties do not require responsibility'. I have literally had them purposely breath in the faces of my self and others, just to show contempt. I am glad if you are wearing masks in other's presence even if your doubt it's usefulness as a preventative, buy many are arrogantly not. Please consider this study.

[nocl]

30 minutes ago, generichandle said:

Please give me a quotation of a study that describes your '15 minute' assertion. here is mine:

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas/articles/2020-10-30/top-public-health-official-in-topeka-area-to-step-down

 

I have never seen or heard about your assertion. But I HAVE seen several cases of people being re-infected.

 

My real question is why do so many people insist on 'proving their manhood' by ASSERTIVELY insisting on adopting this attitude of 'my liberties do not require responsibility'. I have literally had them purposely breath in the faces of my self and others, just to show contempt. I am glad if you are wearing masks in other's presence even if your doubt it's usefulness as a preventative, buy many are arrogantly not. Please consider this study.

The CDC at one time did indicate that on average it would take 15 minutes of exposure.  However, it all depends on a number of conditions so it was mostly a place holder.  They have now updated that based as more information gained and have now changed it to cumulative exposure throughout the day, not consistent exposure per each contact.

[Daniel A]

9 hours ago, generichandle said:

Please give me a quotation of a study that describes your '15 minute' assertion.

How about the CDC?  They have defined close contact as "Individual who has had close contact (within 6 feet for a total of 15 minutes or more)"

 

See:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/public-health-recommendations.html

 

I hope this helps.

[USCcruisecrazy]

10 hours ago, generichandle said:

Please give me a quotation of a study that describes your '15 minute' assertion. here is mine:

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas/articles/2020-10-30/top-public-health-official-in-topeka-area-to-step-down

 

I have never seen or heard about your assertion. But I HAVE seen several cases of people being re-infected.

 

My real question is why do so many people insist on 'proving their manhood' by ASSERTIVELY insisting on adopting this attitude of 'my liberties do not require responsibility'. I have literally had them purposely breath in the faces of my self and others, just to show contempt. I am glad if you are wearing masks in other's presence even if your doubt it's usefulness as a preventative, buy many are arrogantly not. Please consider this study.

I greatly appreciate your response.  I am saddened to know you have crossed paths with people that would purposefully breathe in your face as a sign of contempt.  Unfortunately, there are way too mnay inconsiderate people in our society. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by people ahving an attitude that their liberties do not require responsibility.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  Believe me, I strongly support liberties, because without them we are slaves to the whims of politicians.  And one can be both responsible and stand on principles of liberty.  Just a sone can be irresponsible and stand on those sam eprinciples, so I think the issue is more about inconsiderate people and not liberties...but I digress.

 

My wife is the Head Nurse at a facility in SC.  I am using information they have recieved from various sources to base my opinions, but truth is none of us probably are completely correct because all disease mutates along the way and the characteristics change.  But, from what I have been shared from their facility: there is not a single case reported so far in SC of someone that was positive for COVID, cleared completely, and then caught it again.  As far as the 15 minutes (roughly) that takes into consideration the individual being in close proximity and breathing normal.  All bets are off of course if the person is symptomatic and spewing droplets via a cough or sneeze. The 15 minutes is part of the CDC's definition of "Close Contact".  The 15 minutes does not necessarily need to be consecutive...but it depends on the viral load of the infected person. For example: someone with a very high viral load, you are beside them at work for 5 minutes every hour, that very well could result in you having a high enough viral load to be infected.  The CDC site can provide better explanation of their Close Contact assessments.

 

In recent months I have traveled to many states...Florida, Virginia, Nevada, Georgia, Mississippi, and North Carolina for extended time.  I find it strnage how every one of those states and even within those states this is treated doifferently.  That of course goes back to your liberties response I assume. I have seen 2 businesses in a downtown area with a common wall and each has different rules...no mask required...no mask then no entry.  

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

I greatly appreciate your response.  I am saddened to know you have crossed paths with people that would purposefully breathe in your face as a sign of contempt.  Unfortunately, there are way too mnay inconsiderate people in our society. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by people ahving an attitude that their liberties do not require responsibility.  Those two things are mutually exclusive.  Believe me, I strongly support liberties, because without them we are slaves to the whims of politicians.  And one can be both responsible and stand on principles of liberty.  Just a sone can be irresponsible and stand on those sam eprinciples, so I think the issue is more about inconsiderate people and not liberties...but I digress.

 

 

As I read that a Bob Dylan lyric immediately came to my mind; "But to live outside the law, you must be honest" from the song Absolutely Sweet Marie.

[Potstech]

22 hours ago, nocl said:

Unfortunately Regal is currently in the eastern med and scheduled for Europe until September 2021, so no indication about ramping up for US.

They gotta start somewhere.  Seeing that many of the crew on the ships are European it would make sense to start virus training there.

[nocl]

Just now, Potstech said:

They gotta start somewhere.  Seeing that many of the crew on the ships are European it would make sense to start virus training there.

The problem with that logic is that it would increase the quarantine periods considerably.  Quarantine to a ship in Europe and then have to quarantine all over again before being able to board the ship they are transferring to.  Far less efficient than just sending to one of the initial start up ships (don't expect there will be many of them).

[triple7tahoe]

23 hours ago, nocl said:

Unfortunately Regal is currently in the eastern med and scheduled for Europe until September 2021, so no indication about ramping up for US.

True that---Our soonest cruise(s) are on the Ruby SFO-SFO April--We are booked for the Regal from the UK later in the year and then the Island.  I am just so happy to see that there is movement 🙂

 

[Steelers36]

On 11/4/2020 at 2:39 PM, USCcruisecrazy said:

Gee, that sure sounds like fun...sign me up!   NOT!!!

Agree - that is nuts having only one person (or couple) on a stairway at a time.  Lots of stairways are wide, plus it has been often and widely reported that momentary passing another person(s) is virtually ZERO chance of transmission and a more extended time in proximity of an infected person is necessary.  This is illustrated in that most "breakouts" come from large gatherings.  

 

PLUS, they are making people wear masks indoors.  IMO, such a stairway ruling is absolutely uncalled for.

 

[Steelers36]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:04 PM, USCcruisecrazy said:

yes, I wear one when in a store because I think it makes others feel more comfortable...not because I think it makes one iota of difference in me catching the virus.  And I have no issue of a store saying without one you can't enter.  But I also see people so scared to death by a false narrative that they even drive in their car alone with a mask on...which is very bad over time for their health.  Anyway, just a few thoughts.  Cheers!!!

Agree.  +1.

[Steelers36]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:08 PM, Potstech said:

The Chinese Communist Party finds it offensive so their agenda is to declare anyone calling it "Wuhan" or Chinese" as racist. That is the main reason.

I could give a flying "F" what the CCP thinks concerning this virus.

[nocl]

6 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Agree - that is nuts having only one person (or couple) on a stairway at a time.  Lots of stairways are wide, plus it has been often and widely reported that momentary passing another person(s) is virtually ZERO chance of transmission and a more extended time in proximity of an infected person is necessary.  This is illustrated in that most "breakouts" come from large gatherings.  

 

PLUS, they are making people wear masks indoors.  IMO, such a stairway ruling is absolutely uncalled for.

 

Not necessarily. The CDC notice says those most at risk have extended contact.  It does not say only those with extended contact is at risk which is what you are claiming. Length of time can influence infection, but is not an absolute requirement.    If you pass within close proximity  where someone is breathing hard or coughing one might get a sufficient dose without remaining there for 15 minutes.  If someone is above them and coming down the stair s and they cough any escaping particles would be dropping while someone else is coming up the stairs.

 

The odds of getting infected is determined by virus density and duration.  But one large droplet contains enough virus to infect. 

[Steelers36]

11 minutes ago, nocl said:

Not necessarily. The CDC notice says those most at risk have extended contact.  It does not say only those with extended contact is at risk which is what you are claiming. Length of time can influence infection, but is not an absolute requirement.    If you pass within close proximity  where someone is breathing hard or coughing one might get a sufficient dose without remaining there for 15 minutes.  If someone is above them and coming down the stair s and they cough any escaping particles would be dropping while someone else is coming up the stairs.

 

The odds of getting infected is determined by virus density and duration.  But one large droplet contains enough virus to infect. 

That isn't what I said.  And you completely ignore the fact that passengers are wearing masks in the way you framed your response.  Clearly, you are one of those who are very concerned and nervous about catching it.  I cannot change your mind and won't try, but fact remains that casual passing situation is a very low chance of catching COVID-19.  With all wearing masks, it has to be technically as close to zero as one can get. 

 

[Steelers36]

22 hours ago, generichandle said:

Please give me a quotation of a study that describes your '15 minute' assertion. here is mine:

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/kansas/articles/2020-10-30/top-public-health-official-in-topeka-area-to-step-down

 

 

 

22 hours ago, nocl said:

The CDC at one time did indicate that on average it would take 15 minutes of exposure.  However, it all depends on a number of conditions so it was mostly a place holder.  They have now updated that based as more information gained and have now changed it to cumulative exposure throughout the day, not consistent exposure per each contact.

 

12 hours ago, Daniel A said:

How about the CDC?  They have defined close contact as "Individual who has had close contact (within 6 feet for a total of 15 minutes or more)"

 

See:  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/public-health-recommendations.html

 

I hope this helps.

 

https://news.umanitoba.ca/walking-or-running-past-someone-will-likely-not-give-you-covid-19-say-experts/

 

https://www.facebook.com/DailyMail/posts/you-wont-catch-coronavirus-by-walking-past-an-infected-person-doctor-reveals-i-t/5315372828522422/

 

There have been lots of reports on this - casual, momentary passing another person.   Unmasked and particularly outdoors.  Thing is in a ship stairwell, people have masks on and you on pass by in a matter of seconds. 

 

Anyway, no matter what is posted here, people will choose to believe what they want and can find articles to support that and can make their own decisions. 

 

 

[nocl]

4 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

That isn't what I said.  And you completely ignore the fact that passengers are wearing masks in the way you framed your response.  Clearly, you are one of those who are very concerned and nervous about catching it.  I cannot change your mind and won't try, but fact remains that casual passing situation is a very low chance of catching COVID-19.  With all wearing masks, it has to be technically as close to zero as one can get. 

 

Actually you did say " momentary passing another person(s) is virtually ZERO chance of transmission and a more extended time in proximity of an infected person is necessary".

 

Yes the passenger will be wearing masks. However, that does not guarantee that they will be wearing it correctly, or not move the mask if sneezing or coughing.  If a mask is poorly fitted some particles can escape and while even a poorly fitted mask does capture some of the particles if someone is higher in a stair well where even heavy particles that do escape can fall into the breathing space of others.

 

While stairways often have two parallel sections that are sometimes more than 6 feet apart they also merge for half of the height between each floor and at that time the space for most of the stairs would be less that 6 feet the social distance space.

 

Plus when some are walking up the stairs it is likely that they will be breathing harder than normal

 

As far as being concerned I have traveled over 10,000 miles since the outbreak started and spent over 30 nights in hotels, purchased a new house and moved 600 miles.  So not exactly cowering at home which is what you implied.

 

Those that have established the rules and they have far more information about infection so one would expect there is some valid reasoning behind it.  Just as there is for wearing masks, social distancing and other CDC recommendations.

[Steelers36]

Just now, nocl said:

Actually you did say " momentary passing another person(s) is virtually ZERO chance of transmission and a more extended time in proximity of an infected person is necessary".

 

Yes the passenger will be wearing masks. However, that does not guarantee that they will be wearing it correctly, or not move the mask if sneezing or coughing.  If a mask is poorly fitted some particles can escape and while even a poorly fitted mask does capture some of the particles if someone is higher in a stair well where even heavy particles that do escape can fall into the breathing space of others.

 

While stairways often have two parallel sections that are sometimes more than 6 feet apart they also merge for half of the height between each floor and at that time the space for most of the stairs would be less that 6 feet the social distance space.

 

Plus when some are walking up the stairs it is likely that they will be breathing harder than normal

 

As far as being concerned I have traveled over 10,000 miles since the outbreak started and spent over 30 nights in hotels, purchased a new house and moved 600 miles.  So not exactly cowering at home which is what you implied.

 

Those that have established the rules and they have far more information about infection so one would expect there is some valid reasoning behind it.  Just as there is for wearing masks, social distancing and other CDC recommendations.

Last time I checked, virtually zero <> zero.  Perhaps you should stick to that other travel and avoid a cruise ship for the time being.  IDK how you would feel comfortable on an airplane (assuming that is part of 10K miles).  But whatever, we don't need to debate our personal feelings and risk factor levels here on CC.  Happy trails.

 

[nocl]

3 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Last time I checked, virtually zero <> zero.  Perhaps you should stick to that other travel and avoid a cruise ship for the time being.  IDK how you would feel comfortable on an airplane (assuming that is part of 10K miles).  But whatever, we don't need to debate our personal feelings and risk factor levels here on CC.  Happy trails.

 

Last time I looked virtually zero means practically zero (in effect though not in fact; practically; nearly)

 

or for all practical purposes zero

 

 

Actually the 10,000 was driving with over 30 nights in various hotels, national parks, cities,etc.

 

Flights would be separate

Very simply the air system on aircraft have air flow that is vertical in nature with air vents at the top and exhaust vent at the floor.  Most air motion in an aircraft is vertical within an individuals passengers space. So if all passengers are wearing masks and particles are expelled the air flow pulls them down and not into the breathing area of other passengers.

 

There is a recent study done by DOD that explored that in great depth.  Also there is massive air inflow and filtering on aircraft such that if particles in a cabin would be fully cleared within 6 minutes.  

 

Plus while there is well documented cases of transfer on cruise ships there are few cases on aircraft.  One on a flight from the US to Vietnam in the early days of the outbreak and one on Ryan air on a flight from the Med, back to UK.

 

Last time I checked no one as done a study about particles falling down a stairwell on a create. But clearly stairwell do not have ventilation systems and in most cases do not have a lot of air flow.

 

On the other hand there have been studies on the the presence of virus in particles of various size, the behavior in vertical air columns, and that even a single large particle contains enough virus to infect.

[nocl]

18 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Last time I checked, virtually zero <> zero.  Perhaps you should stick to that other travel and avoid a cruise ship for the time being.  IDK how you would feel comfortable on an airplane (assuming that is part of 10K miles).  But whatever, we don't need to debate our personal feelings and risk factor levels here on CC.  Happy trails.

 

Maybe one should should follow the rules as provided hwne and if they plan on using a particular transportation form

[nocl]

For anyone that thinks limiting traffic in stairwells I will provide the following quotation from the CDC document for shared housing.  

 

• Minimize traffic in enclosed spaces, such as elevators and stairwells. Consider limiting the number of individuals in an elevator at one time and designating one directional stairwells, if possible.

So it would appear that the the requirement might not be that crazy since it is similar to recommendations for land based facilties.

[Potstech]

4 hours ago, nocl said:

The problem with that logic is that it would increase the quarantine periods considerably.  Quarantine to a ship in Europe and then have to quarantine all over again before being able to board the ship they are transferring to.  Far less efficient than just sending to one of the initial start up ships (don't expect there will be many of them).

So say you.

[Potstech]

1 hour ago, Steelers36 said:

I could give a flying "F" what the CCP thinks concerning this virus.

As do many yet they keep pushing the CCP agenda when they call anyone who uses the term "Wuhan virus" or "Chinese virus".  Whether the give a flying "F"or not.

[nocl]

33 minutes ago, Potstech said:

So say you.

So say the quarantine requirements for ships in Europe according to the guidelines there.  quarantine in home country, 14 day quarantine on land before joining ship.  Then when they transfer having to follow the requirements as stated in the CDC framework.

 

Those are in writing what do you have backing your position.

[Steelers36]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

Actually the 10,000 was driving with over 30 nights in various hotels, national parks, cities,etc.

That is some trip!  Also, very safe in your own vehicle.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Steelers36