Key West Votes to Ban Mega Ships

[kitty9]

The voters in Key West voted to ban ships carrying more than 1300 passengers and they will limit the number of cruise passengers to 1500 per day.  While this ban will not apply to lines like Oceania, Regent, Azamara, Crystal,  Seabourn, Silversea and other boutique lines, it will impact those lines if more than two or three visit on the same day.  
 

Does anyone think this will hurt the bottom line in KW, or do they make enough from land vacations?  In 2018, KW saw more than 1,000,000 cruise passengers 

[pinotlover]

Of course another option is that the big boys, like NCL, says “ If you don’t want our larger ships, we won’t send our smaller ships either!”. There goes Oceania, Regent, Azamara, etc. See your $10 and raise you 50!

 

The locals can then relish their peace and quiet and pay a lot more taxes to make make up for the lost revenues. Must be nice to be rich!

[JVNYC]

I think this is great news for Key West.  They voted for it. 

[floridatravelersforlife]

59 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Of course another option is that the big boys, like NCL, says “ If you don’t want our larger ships, we won’t send our smaller ships either!”. There goes Oceania, Regent, Azamara, etc. See your $10 and raise you 50!

 

The locals can then relish their peace and quiet and pay a lot more taxes to make make up for the lost revenues. Must be nice to be rich!

We only travel on small ships so no effect on me, but I resent the populace giving the heev ho to the tourists that spend lots of dollars.  Since I live in FL I'll spend  my dollars in Key Largo, and give the finger salute to Key West.    

[Noxequifans]

Interesting. Key West will have to see how this vote plays out. I can see both sides. 

[LHT28]

i am sure  a lot of port cities are thinking the along the same lines as the cruise ships overwhelm some ports

After having a summer  free of cruises & the throngs  they may enjoy less tourists

Will have to wait & see how it all plays out  once cruising begins again

 

JMO

 

[Hlitner]

Call me a KW lover since DW and I often vacation in KW.  We have also been there on a few cruises although that is not even close to the experience we have when spending 3-5 days in the city.  There has been some discussion (elsewhere on CC) about the 3 anti-cruiser referendums and I should mention that two of them passed with more then 60% of the vote and one (related to the environment and cruising) got over 80%.  Somebody asked about the economic impact and the figures used (in KW) by both sides of the argument is that cruisers represent as much as 50% of the tourists but only 8% of the economy.   A substantial amount of the cruise dollars goes to cruiser-oriented junk shops which would not be missed by the locals if they simply closed their doors (and were replaced with cute shops better appreciated in KW).

 

As a very frequent cruiser (until COVID) I have mixed emotions.  DW and I are heading to KW in early December for a short vacation.  We truly look forward to being in town and not having cruisers crowding the streets in the daytime.  In fact, while we seldom walk down Duval Street when ships are in port, with no ships we might actually spend some daytime hours exploring the nicer shops.  But I can tell you that nobody will miss having 1 or 2 ships docked (near Mallory Square) ruining the beautiful view.  By the way, many may not be aware that one of those two docks is privately owned (and built) by a wealthy family from Delray Beach.  They will likely be among those who challenge the referendums in Federal court.  But I guarantee you that the particular family that owns that dock would fight tooth and nail to prevent any dock (or cruise ship) from coming to Delray.   "Not in my back yard" applies.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

I think some miss the point in that the negative vibes are not about all cruise ships but about mega ships.  Most ports were quite happy with smaller vessels (lets use less then 800 as an example) but then ships started to grow  They soon had 1000, then 2000, 3000, 4000 and even 6000+.  While it is one thing to have 1000 cruise ship passengers assimilating into a town, it is another thing when there are thousands!  And many studies have shown that cruisers do not contribute a lot of money to the local coffers.   Having cruised for over 40 years we have seen too many cruisers ruin the atmosphere of many places (and we were part of the problem).  Key West is only one example and there are others all over the world.  

 

As to how the KW vote "plays out" apparently it is already part of the city charter.  In other words it is the local law.  So now, it is up to the courts if they choose to overrule the locals.  Philosophically, if the locals do not want something ruining their community it seems like it should be their call.  But these days the courts involve themselves in everything and the will of the people apparently count for very little.  So the cruise industry may still win and be able to dock in KW although I suspect they will no longer be warmly received.

 

Speaking of warm welcomes, I guess it was about 2- 3 years ago there was a post about a cruise ship that spent the day at St Barts.  The cruisers were surprised to find that there were no public restrooms or even working bathrooms in local restaurants/bars.  Folks posted how they had all kinds of problems finding a bathroom when ashore.  This was actually a quiet protest by locals who do not want cruise ships (other then a few very high-end small luxury vessels) at their island.   As much as DW and I love to cruise we do not want to dock or tender in places where we are not wanted.  KW has made it clear they do not want large cruise ships.

 

Hank

[pinotlover]

I’m rather simplistic about it. If the NIMBYs don’t want we tourists, I have zero problem with not visiting. We’ll gladly spend our tourist dollars where we are welcome. We were considering staying at the Hyatt in KW the first week of February. Since we tourists aren’t welcome by the locals, we’ll find someplace where we are. Are the NIMBYs wanting to capacity control the Hyatt and Marriott also?
 

Any other US ports not want visitors? Please speak up before we finalize reservations.

[Daniel A]

19 hours ago, kitty9 said:

The voters in Key West voted to ban ships carrying more than 1300 passengers and they will limit the number of cruise passengers to 1500 per day.  While this ban will not apply to lines like Oceania, Regent, Azamara, Crystal,  Seabourn, Silversea and other boutique lines, it will impact those lines if more than two or three visit on the same day

One correction to the description of the actual amendment to the city charter is that the 1300 persons number includes both passengers and crew.  The ships would be allowed to dock but nobody could disembark.  Insignia would just barely make the cut with a capacity of 824 passengers and 400 crew.

[LHT28]

24 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

One correction to the description of the actual amendment to the city charter is that the 1300 persons number includes both passengers and crew.  The ships would be allowed to dock but nobody could disembark.  Insignia would just barely make the cut with a capacity of 824 passengers and 400 crew.

the R ships hold 684 pax   so they should be fine in that case

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/ships

[Daniel A]

8 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

the R ships hold 684 pax   so they should be fine in that case

https://www.oceaniacruises.com/ships

According to Wikipedia, that number is for lower berths only.  They list maximum capacity of 824 PAX in all berths.  I'll trust that Oceania knows the capacity better than Wikipedia. 😉  But they should still be ok unless there is another ship in port that day.  Then the 1500 total for all cruise passengers would kick in.  How would any cruise line decide who disembarks and who doesn't?  I wouldn't want to book a cruise to Key West only to find on arrival the I cannot get off the ship.

[Sea42]

11 hours ago, pinotlover said:

I’m rather simplistic about it. If the NIMBYs don’t want we tourists, I have zero problem with not visiting. We’ll gladly spend our tourist dollars where we are welcome. We were considering staying at the Hyatt in KW the first week of February. Since we tourists aren’t welcome by the locals, we’ll find someplace where we are. Are the NIMBYs wanting to capacity control the Hyatt and Marriott also?
 

Any other US ports not want visitors? Please speak up before we finalize reservations.

It is not the case that they don't want tourists. It is that they want tourists in manageable numbers that spend more money. Compared to someone who is staying for an overnight visit or longer, cruise passengers are a very low priority.

[Kate-AHF]

Honestly, I do NOT understand the animus towards the residents of Key West.  I was staying in Islamorada a few years back, and we drove down to Key West.  Several cruise ships were in, and the crowding was unbelievable.  I felt the same way I felt last time I was in Grand Cayman, in total vehicular and pedestrian gridlock with cruise pax.  I thought to myself, why would ANYONE want to live here in this mess?  And along those lines, why wouldn't they want their city back if curtailing the numbers of cruise pax could do that?

 

Cruise pax in a majority of the ports that look askance at cruise ships do not contribute as much to the tax base as they likely take out in infrastructure.  I for sure don't feel "unwelcome" as a tourist in Key West because of this decision.  I understand it to they are not welcoming to 12,000 daytrippers every day for three months of the year.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Sea42 said:

It is not the case that they don't want tourists. It is that they want tourists in manageable numbers that spend more money. Compared to someone who is staying for an overnight visit or longer, cruise passengers are a very low priority.

Sometimes I think we cruisers are our own worst enemy when it comes to winning over locals and other nationals.  Consider that many cruisers will simply book cruise line excursions or local tours that only benefit the cruise lines and a single tour operator.  Those folks move around in large groups and are somewhat disruptive to local activities.  We see this in Puerto Vallarta (where we live for part of the year) with large tour buses blocking lanes of traffic, large tour groups blocking sidewalks, etc.  Most of these cruisers do very little to benefit the local economy with many not even buying a bottle of water (they bring water off the ship) and many others passing on local food in favor of eating when they get back to the ship.  Or course there are other cruisers who do their own thing, enjoy local food/restaurants, and shop in many of the stores/markets.  The latter are desirable (and welcomed) but the others are often an annoyance with little benefit.  

 

I do not blame fellow cruisers because they are "programmed" to book overpriced excursions.  Many attend shore talks aboard the ship that are conducted by folks who directly benefit from selling excursions.  Who can blame a cruiser who is afraid to do anything on their own, eat the food, drink the drinks, etc. after to some of these shore talks where they are subtlly scared into compliance.  Over forty plus years of cruising I have attended hundreds of these short talks where cruisers are spoon fed, "be careful about the local food,"  "watch your valuables (actually good advice),"  "stay in groups,"  "if you go on your own be very careful not to miss the ship," etc.  All these talks are designed to psychologically steer cruisers towards cruise line excursions (a profit center for the cruise lines) which are of minimal benefit to the local economy.  When tour groups are encouraged to go to "recommended shops" it is because they shops have actually paid a promotional fee (and sometimes even a percentage of sales) to the tour company.  In many ways it is a mild scam all designed to generate profit for the tour company and cruise line.  There is little benefit to the local economy.

 

When DW I were in NZ we booked a very small private tour (8 people) to a very special farm where the owners worked with the NZ government to help Kiwis and other rare species.  The tour was fantastic and the owners of the place were very passionate about their work.  As they were giving us some cookies (made by the owner) and drinks one of our little group asked them why they did not work with the cruise lines to get larger tour groups (and more revenue).  These folks actually got angry and said that the shore providers that work with the cruise lines were like leaches.  They wanted a huge discount from the farm but then planned to mark-up the tour price in a big way.  This benefitted the shore tour company and the cruise line but did little to help the farm.  Their talk about trying to negotiate with the shore-based cruise line reps was a real eye opener.

 

When we vacation in KW we often take a full day boat tour that gets us far out to some reefs where we can dive, snorkel and Kayak.  We are very careful to book with a local company that does not deal with the cruise lines since we want to support the small local operators.  If more cruisers supported the locals there would be a lot less anti-cruise sentiment in the ports.

 

Hank

[Tranquility Base]

I think there will be more locations around the world who will use this 2020 & 2021 downturn to reassess their future tourism structure.

How to attract more longer term, higher spending visitors as opposed to  lower spending day trippers.

 

We have all visited popular destinations and wished they were less crowded.

This pandemic will give an opportunity for many cities to operate smarter for their residents and businesses,  and provide more value which often comes with less volume. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Tranquility Base

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, Kate-AHF said:

Honestly, I do NOT understand the animus towards the residents of Key West. 

Maybe the big KEEP OUT sign they just posted at the wharfs has something to do with it.

56 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

If more cruisers supported the locals there would be a lot less anti-cruise sentiment in the ports.

When I get off a ship in a port where I've never been before, I don't know where to go.  I remember when I spent a week in St Thomas one year, DW & I decided we would pop in to a local tavern for a drink and a snack.  When we pulled into the parking lot, there was a uniformed security guard toting a shotgun at the front door.  No thanks!  We just left and only accepted recommendations from the resort concierge after that. We ran into a similar problem on Grand Bahama Island.

 

If the cruise ship passengers don't know where to go and where it is safe, they will rely on local tour groups who know where to go and where not to go.  If the locals aren't getting any business from thousands of visitors, then it is the fault of the local Chamber of Commerce.  They could provide cruise ship passengers with information about where to go and what to do and steer the passengers to more varied local businesses rather than the tourist traps.

[LHT28]

6 hours ago, Daniel A said:

According to Wikipedia, that number is for lower berths only.  They list maximum capacity of 824 PAX in all berths.  I'll trust that Oceania knows the capacity better than Wikipedia. 😉  .

Do not think I have  been on   a ship at maximum capacity   but who knows  it could happen 😉

[Daniel A]

11 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

Do not think I have  been on   a ship at maximum capacity   but who know  it could happen

Well, if a cruise line wants to stop at Key West, they'll probably put a limit on how many PAX they'll book.  

[pinotlover]

I don’t have any animosity towards Key West. Their city, their rules. Most typically, when you see the “ not welcome “ signs, the local yokels actually feel that way towards all visitors, it’s just easier for them to direct it toward cruise ships.

 

I see it often in the wine business. Wineries will have rules allowing no tour buses for visits. I get it. However, I am bringing 15-25 wine drinkers and wine buyers out to learn about new wines and wineries. We can’t do that in individual cars. Lots of wineries to introduce my people to. If you can’t handle us , that’s OK. By the way, we won’t bring your wines onto the store shelves either. Save the space for welcoming suppliers. 
 

Same with cruise destinations. Lots of places to see. Maybe that one day sneak preview from the ship will convince us to return another day for that extended stay.   If we’re not welcome for that sneak preview, chances are zero we’ll ever come. Other places win out.

[Tranquility Base]

.....

Edited November 11, 2020 by Tranquility Base

[ORV]

19 hours ago, pinotlover said:

I don’t have any animosity towards Key West. Their city, their rules. Most typically, when you see the “ not welcome “ signs, the local yokels actually feel that way towards all visitors, it’s just easier for them to direct it toward cruise ships.

 

I see it often in the wine business. Wineries will have rules allowing no tour buses for visits. I get it. However, I am bringing 15-25 wine drinkers and wine buyers out to learn about new wines and wineries. We can’t do that in individual cars. Lots of wineries to introduce my people to. If you can’t handle us , that’s OK. By the way, we won’t bring your wines onto the store shelves either. Save the space for welcoming suppliers. 
 

Same with cruise destinations. Lots of places to see. Maybe that one day sneak preview from the ship will convince us to return another day for that extended stay.   If we’re not welcome for that sneak preview, chances are zero we’ll ever come. Other places win out.

While I don't often agree with you I certainly do here. I'm sure most of those Caribbean islands would love to see some cruise ships rolling in about now. 

[JeffElizabeth]

On 11/11/2020 at 8:35 AM, Sea42 said:

It is not the case that they don't want tourists. It is that they want tourists in manageable numbers that spend more money. Compared to someone who is staying for an overnight visit or longer, cruise passengers are a very low priority.

Exactly.  It is like Barcelona.  They want you to stay for a week at an expensive hotel, dine at their good restaurants,  and shop their luxury stores. Quality of guests over quantity.  I have always wanted to explore Key West, so I might have to do it by getting an hotel room instead.  

[Roger88]

4 minutes ago, JeffElizabeth said:

Exactly.  It is like Barcelona.  They want you to stay for a week at an expensive hotel, dine at their good restaurants,  and shop their luxury stores. Quality of guests over quantity.  I have always wanted to explore Key West, so I might have to do it by getting an hotel room instead.  

And what  is wrong with staying at expensive hotels? We are travelling to enjoy things and to waste money on things we don't enjoy. When I travel, I always search for good deals in the best hotels and I always look for nice places to dine (usually expensive ones) 

[bartexas]

I know for me, I try to go places in off season as much as is feasible. Key West is on our list of places we want to go spend several days. We would never go during cruise season. We actually had a trip booked this fall that we canceled. We were staying at the Waldorf, had a private fishing charter booked, etc. If more people like us are willing to go there now without the big ships, it seems like it's a win-win for their economy.

 

I lived in Barcelona for several years a couple of streets from the beach. I hated cruise season. In fact, I made it a point to travel elsewhere as much as I could during that time. Unfortunately, the cliche of the bad tourist drowns out those who are truly inquisitive, willing to do their homework, learn about local customs and social norms, and find authentic activities. The big lines dropping many thousands of people off at the same time increases the number of bad tourists in one concentrated vicinity.

 

Our neighborhood pub was the kind of place all the regulars stopped in while they were walking by to visit, have a drink, collaborate on a crossword, and maybe watch sports. It was relaxed, and it felt like "Cheers." During cruise season, it was loud and crowded with people complaining when things weren't exactly like they were at home. I used to joke with the owner, "Ugh! Who let all the Americans in?"