Back to back bookings - any word yet if CDC will even allow them prior to Nov 1st?

[CHEZMARYLOU]

We have a Canadian Rockies cruise tour booked after our August 2021 Alaska cruise and have been wondering not only if the cruise tour will be a go but if the cruise will be a go.  I have speculated that if cruising has resumed but Canada will not open its borders to tourists Celebrity could do Pacific costal and/or Mexico cruises from west coast ports. Much as we want to revisit Alaska, since this is our 50th anniversary we are open to this or the Caribbean.

[Ken the cruiser]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While the "side to side" (two different ships) is a distinct possibility to get around the 7 day limitation, just as CBP considers two consecutive cruises to be one, for purposes of the PVSA, it is not that great a leap to expect that continuing to sail on the same ship for more than one cruise would not be considered a violation of the 7 day rule.

 

Why do you think the CDC set a 7 day limit, and not as you say 5,6,8 or 9?  I believe that it is due to studies of other viral outbreaks on cruise ships (notably noro) and a study of back to back cruisers, as well as a detailed study of the timelines of the few cruises that have had covid outbreaks, to determine the longest possible cruise that still provides a significant safety factor against contracting a disease.  Therefore, the 7 day limit is for the passenger, not the voyage.  I think that even a same cruise line side to side will not be allowed, only if you can arrange one that involves two separate cruise lines.

My assumption is if you are correct, then once applicable ships have passed their CDC "no revenue" certification test and are allowed to set sail from/to US ports, then Celebrity will subsequently let us know we will not be allowed to sail on both cruises and will have to choose one or the other. This would be similar to if we tried to book a B2B which was deemed to be illegal by the cruise line based on the PSVA rules.

[DaKahuna]

2 hours ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

 

Read the entire highlighted part; the "AND" is even bolded.

 

Yes but is 'your trip' really over until after the second cruise?  

We are booked on an Apex back to back in March/April of next year and have not heard anything from our TA or from Celebrity indicating that we cannot take that trip.  (It was a Lift & Shift from a Millennium 14-Day Japan cruise that was cancelled for the same time period). 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

My assumption is if you are correct, then once applicable ships have passed their CDC "no revenue" certification test and are allowed to set sail from/to US ports, then Celebrity will subsequently let us know we will not be allowed to sail on both cruises and will have to choose one or the other. This would be similar to if we tried to book a B2B which was deemed to be illegal by the cruise line based on the PSVA rules.

Yes, I believe CDC will treat B2B cruises the same as CBP, except the CDC will be interested in when you get on the ship, and when you get off, rather than CBP's concern of where.

[C-Dragons]

4 hours ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

 

Read the entire highlighted part; the "AND" is even bolded.

And who is going to enforce any of these recommendations?

[C-Dragons]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, I believe CDC will treat B2B cruises the same as CBP, except the CDC will be interested in when you get on the ship, and when you get off, rather than CBP's concern of where.

You “believe” does not equate to to having confirmation. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, C-Dragons said:

You “believe” does not equate to to having confirmation. 

Never said it does.  I state my opinions just like everyone else here.  However, I have a somewhat different experience level with the government bodies like CDC and CBP than most here on CC do, so I do posit my thoughts on the subject.

[NutsAboutGolf]

2 hours ago, C-Dragons said:

And who is going to enforce any of these recommendations?

 

No one can enforce the stay at home recommendation, yet the Dept of Homeland security may be able to identify a US citizen who is booked on multiple sailings (regardless if a true B2B cruise or even two sailings on different lines)

[39august]

Some of us booked on Equinox b2b in May have already received note of cancellation for these cruises. Currently during part of what was to be my May 2 b2b on Equinox, X is showing a couple of 7 night cruises available to book. So I think that answers the question. 

[Ken the cruiser]

25 minutes ago, 39august said:

Some of us booked on Equinox b2b in May have already received note of cancellation for these cruises. Currently during part of what was to be my May 2 b2b on Equinox, X is showing a couple of 7 night cruises available to book. So I think that answers the question. 

Right now I'm only seeing 7 day Equinox cruises leaving May 9th and May 23rd. Are you sure the missing cruises weren't cancelled for some other reason? Maybe they chartered out the Equinox on those other dates like they did to us regarding the Summit in January and February?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[Ken the cruiser]

Deleted

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ken the cruiser

[D C]

44 minutes ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

 

No one can enforce the stay at home recommendation, yet the Dept of Homeland security may be able to identify a US citizen who is booked on multiple sailings (regardless if a true B2B cruise or even two sailings on different lines)

And then what? DHS knocks on your door for not following a recommendation? 

[NutsAboutGolf]

18 minutes ago, D C said:

And then what? DHS knocks on your door for not following a recommendation? 

 

If they see you're on 2+ consecutive sailings, they'd most likely call the cruise to have them cancel. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

 

If they see you're on 2+ consecutive sailings, they'd most likely call the cruise to have them cancel. 

DHS (actually CBP) typically doesn't know who is on a ship until the ship sails.

[phoenix_dream]

On 11/24/2020 at 11:00 AM, chengkp75 said:

As for B2B cruises, the CDC's intent is to limit the exposure time of any one passenger to 7 days, and CDC is well aware of B2B cruises through the VSP and GI reporting procedures, so I would doubt that they will allow a B2B.

Do you know for sure that is the intent ?   My opinion is that they want to make sure the ships are within 1-2 days from their home port, in case of infection onboard.  Do you have any information that backs up your thinking?   Honestly curious about your answer, not being argumentative.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

Do you know for sure that is the intent ?   My opinion is that they want to make sure the ships are within 1-2 days from their home port, in case of infection onboard.  Do you have any information that backs up your thinking?   Honestly curious about your answer, not being argumentative.

No, I don't know for sure, it is just my opinion based on working with the CDC in the past.  I don't believe that the CDC is interested in whether or not the ship is within a couple of days of home port should a case show up.  As I've said many times before, the CDC is not really interested in whether or not anyone contracts covid on the ship, they are worried about what happens when the infected person, or anyone who had been in contact with that person, disembarks in the US, to potentially lead to a super spreader scenario.  If the patient becomes ill on the cruise, and the ship disembarks that person at a port in another country, the CDC will be just as satisfied, since coldly, it just isn't their problem any more.  All of the CDC measures are not to protect those on the ship, it is to keep those people from becoming a problem when they return to the US, so if a "problem" is shifted to another country, that meets the CDC's mandate just fine.  Besides, the line could sell an 8 or 9 day cruise that just meanders around the Caribbean, and would still be 2 days away from home port, at top speed.  No, based on the thoughts expressed in the NSO and CSO regarding the possibility of enhanced transmission by crew from voyage to voyage, they feel that limiting the days a passenger is onboard will also help to mitigate transmission over time.  JMHO, as always.

[LeeW]

Interesting comments, Chief.  Especially the must/shall stuff that I spent 20 years writing into government research contracts.  One word was often worth over $100K.  As a government scientist I cringe every time these clowns tell us to follow the(ir) science.  But they do get lots of funding that way.

 

We do know that the CDC hates the cruise industry and only dropped the Do Not Sail order because the President wouldn't let them renew it.  So they stuck in a bunch of vague requirements designed to make it very hard for the industry.  We know that the cruise lines can't offer to sell a cruise over 7 days before November but a B2B isn't (and I am fully aware of PVSA rules).  Latest advisary makes it clear they don't want people to sail at all - the cruise industry is the only non-country designated as Level 4.  I don't think they are really trying to limit exposure to short periods - they don't want any exposure and they want to continue their current high level of funding/importance.

 

I do know that Royal allowed us to book a 7/7 B2B for April two days ago.  Hope it goes but booked as replacement for a cancelled Princess Panama 19 day cruise and both new cruises could still be cancelled.  Personally we feel much safer onboard than in Walmart.  Have been on many cruises that had Noro and we didn't get it, so are confident cruise lines do a good job of sanitation (wash hands, don't touch face is important).  And switching to a new batch of customers seems more likely to increase the chance of an infection, not decrease the risk. Maybe they should make the crew stay no more than 7 days on a ship?  Makes as much sense.

[nocl]

On 11/24/2020 at 12:10 PM, C-Dragons said:

And who is going to enforce any of these recommendations?

the cruise line itself as part of their protocols to get approved to restart.

[LGW59]

4 minutes ago, LeeW said:

Interesting comments, Chief.  Especially the must/shall stuff that I spent 20 years writing into government research contracts.  One word was often worth over $100K.  As a government scientist I cringe every time these clowns tell us to follow the(ir) science.  But they do get lots of funding that way.  Curious as to who the clowns are?  

 

We do know that the CDC hates the cruise industry and only dropped the Do Not Sail order because the President wouldn't let them renew it.  So they stuck in a bunch of vague requirements designed to make it very hard for the industry.  We know that the cruise lines can't offer to sell a cruise over 7 days before November but a B2B isn't (and I am fully aware of PVSA rules).  Latest advisary makes it clear they don't want people to sail at all - the cruise industry is the only non-country designated as Level 4.  I don't think they are really trying to limit exposure to short periods - they don't want any exposure and they want to continue their current high level of funding/importance. I believe the cruise industry brought much of this on themselves.  Past virous outbreaks on-board and how they handled COVID, was not smart. 

 

I do know that Royal allowed us to book a 7/7 B2B for April two days ago.  Hope it goes but booked as replacement for a cancelled Princess Panama 19 day cruise and both new cruises could still be cancelled.  Personally we feel much safer onboard than in Walmart.  Have been on many cruises that had Noro and we didn't get it, (you didn't get it, that is good , but what of those who did?) so are confident cruise lines do a good job of sanitation (wash hands, how do cruise monitor don't touch face? will there be a monitor in our room with us?  seriously so silly!  don't touch face is important).  And switching to a new batch of customers(and who are the new "batch" of customers"? seems more likely to increase the chance of an infection, not decrease the risk. Maybe they should make the crew stay no more than 7 days on a ship?  Makes as much sense.

Lastly, scientists???  I work with many, I am not, but those who are veer greatly from your suggestions.  Several on CC are, I trust what they have said thus far, I just feel there is no validity to anything in your post.

[Fouremco]

10 hours ago, LeeW said:

Have been on many cruises that had Noro and we didn't get it, so are confident cruise lines do a good job of sanitation (wash hands, don't touch face is important).

I can't believe that with the global case and death counts, anyone would actually think that there is any comparison whatsoever between effectively controlling infection from noro and controlling infection from COVID-19. SMH

[nocl]

On 11/25/2020 at 8:08 PM, phoenix_dream said:

Do you know for sure that is the intent ?   My opinion is that they want to make sure the ships are within 1-2 days from their home port, in case of infection onboard.  Do you have any information that backs up your thinking?   Honestly curious about your answer, not being argumentative.

the 7 day cruise limit matches up with the crew testing period since they must also be tested every 7 days.

 

[Cruise Raider]

On 11/23/2020 at 7:19 AM, Sam.Seattle said:

Page 32 of CDC conditional sail order limits the sailings to 7-days.  Other than this limit, I don't see anything that prevents B2B bookings.

Does anyone see something I missed?

 

I suppose it is all in the interpretation of that condition in the CDC's requirements: 

 

2) The cruiseship operator must not sail or offer to sail on any itinerary longer than 7 days.  

 

While this is nothing more than an assumption but, maybe part of that clarification was on those B2B sailings.  Both Princess and Holland America (those were the only ones I checked) posted a statement indicating they were looking for further clarification to fully understand the CDC's requirements before they (Princess) announced cancellations on those B2Bs.  On Princess social media sites, I read where many people did have their B2Bs canceled, some tried to book B2Bs and they were not allowed and then I saw someone post that they were successful in booking a B2B, but no details on the actual itinerary were given in that instance.  

Was that even the clarification that the cruiselines were looking for??  I don't know but, it is food for thought.  

 

[chengkp75]

13 hours ago, LeeW said:

We do know that the CDC hates the cruise industry and only dropped the Do Not Sail order because the President wouldn't let them renew it.

I see this charge all the time here on CC, and I for one, don't know this, and would like someone to explain to me why you feel the CDC hates the cruise industry.  I also don't know that they only dropped the NSO because they couldn't renew it.  The use of the "request for information" and the one month extension they got in September, met the requirements for the NSO requirements to become permanent in the future, so personally, I feel that the CDC got everything they wanted.

 

If the CDC hated the cruise industry, all they had to do was rescind the VSP a couple of decades ago, and revert to what they are mandated to do, board and inspect every foreign flag ship, every single time it enters the US, including crew and passenger health interviews.  This time consuming, costly, and annoying to passengers procedure would have driven the cruise lines away from the US long ago.

13 hours ago, LeeW said:

So they stuck in a bunch of vague requirements designed to make it very hard for the industry

This is how government requirements are written.  The agency proposes requirements to meet the "best practices" of their expertise (infectious disease), and don't tread into areas where they have no expertise (operating ships).  It is up to the regulated industry to reply with specific protocols and procedures that meet their "best practices" in their field of expertise (operating cruise ships) and to show what can and cannot be reached and why (financially, physically, whatever).

 

13 hours ago, LeeW said:

And switching to a new batch of customers seems more likely to increase the chance of an infection, not decrease the risk. Maybe they should make the crew stay no more than 7 days on a ship?  Makes as much sense.

 

2 hours ago, nocl said:

the 7 day cruise limit matches up with the crew testing period since they must also be tested every 7 days.

 

As I've said above, the crew are required to follow a different set of protocols, as part of their condition of employment, including the 7 day testing.  A look at the CDC website will show the "interim guidance for ship's crews" (that applies to all foreign ships entering the US), and the "interim guidance for ships", both of which are different than the CSO requirements.

[NutsAboutGolf]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I can't believe that with the global case and death counts, anyone would actually think that there is any comparison whatsoever between effectively controlling infection from noro and controlling infection from COVID-19. SMH

 

Worse, they seem trusting that 100% of the time folks will wash their hands and not touch their face.  The biggest issue is when an infected person (who has symptoms) is eating/drinking with their facial covering starts to sneeze, generally they'll do so in their hands.  When that happens they should immediately wash their hands.

[NutsAboutGolf]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:32 PM, chengkp75 said:

DHS (actually CBP) typically doesn't know who is on a ship until the ship sails.

 

Are there any other agencies who can determine if two different sailings on different lines are booked back to back?