QANTAS very likely to mandate vaccine for international flights

[SelectSys]

As I have expected for both air and cruise travel, vaccines will likely be required for all travelers.  While QANTAS has the first announcement, my expectations that vaccination will be required just about by anyone involved in international travel.

 

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/qantas-likely-to-mandate-covid-19-vaccine-for-international-passengers/141248.article

https://nypost.com/2020/11/23/qantas-to-require-covid-19-vaccine-for-international-flights/

https://www.ft.com/content/8a59043d-df0d-45c1-b870-2780f06c5d1e

[zdcatc12]

Yes, pretty sure that this will be the new normal for both air and cruise lines for the foreseeable future.

[iancal]

Perfect. I assume they will do the same for Jetstar (Aus) flights. 

 

 Hope that Transat,  Korean and Singapore/Scoot follow suit.

Edited November 24, 2020 by iancal

[FlyerTalker]

Note the difference between a private company making a requirement and a governmental body doing so.

 

A prime example is the "mask mandate" on flights within the USA.  Not governmental, and companies are using different standards and enforcement.

[rkacruiser]

I think Air New Zealand will not be far behind in the announcement from Qantas.  New Zealand has had much success in controlling Covid.  Why would they put their success at risk by allowing their national airline to carry potential Covid carrying guests on their planes?  

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

I think Air New Zealand will not be far behind in the announcement from Qantas.  New Zealand has had much success in controlling Covid.  Why would they put their success at risk by allowing their national airline to carry potential Covid carrying guests on their planes?  

 

Conflating ANZ with the NZ government?  Although, since ANZ is majority owned by the nation, the two can get tied together on policies.

 

As mentioned before with QF, NZ is not the only carrier into the country, so unless the government in Wellington decides to make this an immigration mandate, at least a dozen other carriers would be free to follow their own policies.

[rkacruiser]

19 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

As mentioned before with QF, NZ is not the only carrier into the country, so unless the government in Wellington decides to make this an immigration mandate, at least a dozen other carriers would be free to follow their own policies.

 

Quite true.  If some of the nations of the world don't get control of this virus, some countries may require proof of vaccination against the virus as an immigration mandate regardless of what a private (or semi-private) company wants to require.  

[Hlitner]

19 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Quite true.  If some of the nations of the world don't get control of this virus, some countries may require proof of vaccination against the virus as an immigration mandate regardless of what a private (or semi-private) company wants to require.  

I do not think there is any "if" in the equation.  As we have pointed out in other posts, COVID is going to be a big game changer and not just for the near future.  The economic cost of COVID is huge (we are talking trillions of dollars worldwide) and will not be forgotten by businesses and governments alike.  Mandatory vaccine requirements will be the new norm throughout most of the world and anti-vaxers will simply be left behind to fend for themselves without flying, cruising, or international traveling.   Whether vaccine mandates stop with COVID or will be expanded to include other vaccines (i.e. MMR, Flu, etc) remains to be seen.    The remaining question is whether this will all be handled by some type of paper document or perhaps with apps on one's phone (this is the method favored in China and Japan).   It will be interesting to see if WHO takes the lead on this issue of each country and business goes their own way.

 

Hank

[waterbug123]

So this begs the question, are people getting the vaccine being given proof that they got it?  I had a doctors appt yesterday and we were talking about the vaccine.  My doctor's understanding is that at least here in the US, those getting the vaccine aren't being given any sort of proof, at least thus far.   So if this becomes a requirement by an airline or a particular country's immigration department, will it just be a case of "check here if you've had the covid19 vaccine" and they'll take your word for it?

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, waterbug123 said:

So this begs the question, are people getting the vaccine being given proof that they got it?  I had a doctors appt yesterday and we were talking about the vaccine.  My doctor's understanding is that at least here in the US, those getting the vaccine aren't being given any sort of proof, at least thus far.   So if this becomes a requirement by an airline or a particular country's immigration department, will it just be a case of "check here if you've had the covid19 vaccine" and they'll take your word for it?

There is a CDC card like document that goes with the first dose, and you fill it out.

[SelectSys]

This story should help people understand why airlines like this idea:

https://onemileatatime.com/passenger-coronavirus-dies-united-flight/

 

"Reports suggest that the passenger’s wife initially admitted he was experiencing shortness of breath and a lack of taste and smell, and when talking to EMTs in New Orleans, the wife admitted the man had tested positive for coronavirus"

 

 

[Hlitner]

WOW!  Given the lack of any Federal Law or regulatory guidance one would think that United did not do anything wrong.  What could they do?  We recently flew to and from FL on Southwest (with no problems on either flight) and noted that nobody asked for any health info.  During our trip we were in and out of three major airports (BWI, FLL, and TPA) .  At no time were there any questionnaires,  temperature checks, etc.  We did notice a sign at TPA about the availability of testing but do not have a clue whether that actually exists and the procedures.  So the reality seems to be that you can fly domestically in the USA without anyone bringing up COVID or health issues.  

 

It sure does sound like the dead man (and his estate) might well become the target of lawsuits.  Given their knowledge of his condition it seems like he put the lives of everyone on that flight (and in the airport) in jeopardy (reckless endangerment).   This also is a great example why simply depending on folks honesty (such as filling out a health questionnaire prior to boarding a cruise) is a ridiculous exercise meant to protect the cruise line from liability but doing little to prevent sick folks from boarding ships.

 

All this goes to the issue of mandatory vaccination requirements with some type of reliable verification system.  I still believe that this is the only near term solution for the safe resumption of cruising and also makes a lot of sense for airlines and even hotels.  This kind of program is not in conflict with HIPAA (some have asked this question on other blogs) and it also would not be a violation of anyone's rights since nobody has the "right" to cruise, fly or even use a hotel.  In fact, I could make a good argument that failure to implement a mandatory vaccination policy could actually expose an airline or cruise line to liability if a COVID person gets onboard and causes others to get ill or impacts the progress of the cruise or air flight.

 

Hank

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

It sure does sound like the dead man (and his estate) might well become the target of lawsuits. 

 

I can see counsel saying "Prove causality".  Especially if masks were mandated and government testimony on the efficacy of mask usage is presented as evidence.  And depending on the judge, he too might say "where's the causality?"

 

There's an inherent contradiction between "wear masks because they prevent the spread" and "well, even though he wore a mask, he still spread the virus".  Too many are trying to have it both ways.

Edited December 17, 2020 by FlyerTalker

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

This also is a great example why simply depending on folks honesty (such as filling out a health questionnaire prior to boarding a cruise) is a ridiculous exercise meant to protect the cruise line from liability but doing little to prevent sick folks from boarding ships.

 

Another example as far as I am concerned of the irresponsibility that exists in our 21st Century society.  The non-mask wears because it infringes on their freedom, the anti-vaxers, those who are still in denial that a pandemic exists, etc., what is wrong with some people's thinking?  The President-Elect will have a h&%l of a job to try to bring a better sense of unity to our Country.  

 

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

All this goes to the issue of mandatory vaccination requirements with some type of reliable verification system.  

 

It's sad that such mandates seem to be what is required in today's society.  If people won't do the "right thing to do", then such actions seems to be what is needed.  And---I will make a prediction--if such mandates are issued many of those who will be screaming the loudest of "socialism", etc.--are those whose actions--or their lack of proper actions--have caused that to happen.  

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Another example as far as I am concerned of the irresponsibility that exists in our 21st Century society.  The non-mask wears because it infringes on their freedom, the anti-vaxers, those who are still in denial that a pandemic exists, etc., what is wrong with some people's thinking?  The President-Elect will have a h&%l of a job to try to bring a better sense of unity to our Country.  

 

 

It's sad that such mandates seem to be what is required in today's society.  If people won't do the "right thing to do", then such actions seems to be what is needed.  And---I will make a prediction--if such mandates are issued many of those who will be screaming the loudest of "socialism", etc.--are those whose actions--or their lack of proper actions--have caused that to happen.  

Actually, vaccine mandates imposed by businesses (i.e. cruise lines, airlines, etc) are not socialism but simply capitalism at its best.  The companies would be acting based on their own best interests (and also the best interests of their customers).   I guess we could argue that the CDC Guidelines are a form of Socialism but society looks the other way when a politician invokes "public health."  I do not want to get into any kind of politics but I have admitted to having a concern that, in the name of COVID and Public Health, we have given up some hard earned rights without much of a whimper.  

 

When it comes to industries like the cruise industry I would prefer to see the cruise lines "do the right thing" without government's forcing their hand.  If the industry restarts cruising without mandatory vaccination requirements there will be multiple incidents of COVID (just like in Europe) which might set back the cruise lines even more then if they simply waited for folks to be vaccinated.  

 

Hank

[iancal]

Seems to me that many people are very selective when name calling.

 

Where we live we have socialism in the form of fire depts, police services, water and sewer systems, etc.   And we are very thankful for it.

[rkacruiser]

23 hours ago, Hlitner said:

When it comes to industries like the cruise industry I would prefer to see the cruise lines "do the right thing" without government's forcing their hand.  If the industry restarts cruising without mandatory vaccination requirements there will be multiple incidents of COVID (just like in Europe) which might set back the cruise lines even more then if they simply waited for folks to be vaccinated.  

 

👍

[CruiserBruce]

On 12/17/2020 at 3:01 PM, Hlitner said:

Actually, vaccine mandates imposed by businesses (i.e. cruise lines, airlines, etc) are not socialism but simply capitalism at its best.  The companies would be acting based on their own best interests (and also the best interests of their customers).   I guess we could argue that the CDC Guidelines are a form of Socialism but society looks the other way when a politician invokes "public health."  I do not want to get into any kind of politics but I have admitted to having a concern that, in the name of COVID and Public Health, we have given up some hard earned rights without much of a whimper.  

 

When it comes to industries like the cruise industry I would prefer to see the cruise lines "do the right thing" without government's forcing their hand.  If the industry restarts cruising without mandatory vaccination requirements there will be multiple incidents of COVID (just like in Europe) which might set back the cruise lines even more then if they simply waited for folks to be vaccinated.  

 

Hank

Of course, what is perceived as the "right thing" frequently is in the eye of the beholder. What many people think is the "right thing" might be too expensive or not really practical. It is really easy for people to say "they should", without any idea of what the issues are about doing that idea. The better solution is usually somewhere in between the two sides.

[waterbug123]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:02 AM, CruiserBruce said:

There is a CDC card like document that goes with the first dose, and you fill it out.

 

Thanks, I've seen photos of this since posting before!

 

On 12/17/2020 at 3:06 PM, Hlitner said:

  We recently flew to and from FL on Southwest (with no problems on either flight) and noted that nobody asked for any health info.  During our trip we were in and out of three major airports (BWI, FLL, and TPA) .  At no time were there any questionnaires,  temperature checks, etc. 

 

 

Really?  I've flown Southwest several times since covid hit and there is always a question at check-in, whether its online or at the check in desk, asking if you've experienced any covid-like symptoms or been exposed to anyone you know had covid in the prior 2 weeks.  Granted, they have to take you at your word, but they do ask. 

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, waterbug123 said:

 

Thanks, I've seen photos of this since posting before!

 

 

Really?  I've flown Southwest several times since covid hit and there is always a question at check-in, whether its online or at the check in desk, asking if you've experienced any covid-like symptoms or been exposed to anyone you know had covid in the prior 2 weeks.  Granted, they have to take you at your word, but they do ask. 

Nobody said a word at check-in and I will admit to being surprised.   Going through BWI on a Tuesday morning was weird since we had booked the earliest (first flight of the day) flight since we figured it was the safest option.  The airport was like a morgue but all the workers were unusually friendly and talkative (even the TSA folks).  Nobody ever mentioned COVID.  The only difference was that Southwest boards in groups of 10.   It was the same when we checked-in at Tampa for the return flight.  I had the feeling that dealing with COVID has become more routine.  The only place that COVID was mentioned was onboard the flights when a flight attendant did make it clear that folks had to keep their masks on for the entire flight (unless drinking or eating) with no exceptions.  I was pleased that Southwest also made it clear that you had to have a real mask....no kerchief junk.  If you did not have a decent mask they would provide them.  

 

Everywhere we went in Florida the restaurants and bars were following decent protocols but it actually felt routine.   One of our favorite bar/restaurants in KW is a locally popular place called La Te Da.  They have a very attractive bar but what they did was put small tables (the type for a couple) against the front of the bar with some high seats.  So, instead of sitting at the bar and being within 2-3 feet of the bartender you were about 6-8 feet from the bar tender but still at the bar.  It was weird but worked well.  We were actually able to have a nice conversation with another couple (locals) and the bartender (a waitress joined the conversation) about the recent anti-cruise referendums.  DW and I had vowed that we would walk out (or not even walk in) to any bar/restaurant or shop where we did not feel safe.  In 9 days we did not need to walk out of anyplace.  

 

For folks who are managing to travel during these tough times, I believe we are falling into a "new normal" routine.  That being said, we now find ourselves staying away from the kind of bars/lounges that tend to attract a much younger clientele.  What we saw in KW is that younger folks (I would say under 40) seemed to be less cautious (some would say they are reckless).  We did walk by some of the popular (with cruisers/tourists) KW haunts and looking inside there was no way we would enter any of those places.     The one place we did enter that caused us a mile concern was the well known Bern Steak House (Tampa) which is a local institution.  They are operating at about 50% but sill handle hundreds of reservations every evening.  There as some crowding (inside near the main entrance and bar) as folks waited to be seated or until they could get in without a reservation (1 1/2 hour wait).  We had to work at avoiding that bottleneck and fortunately were quickly seated in a room with lots of distancing.

 

Last night I looked (online) at the seating for our upcoming flights to Puerto Vallarta.  I was surprised to see that both of our flights (change at Charlotte) looked pretty full.  So folks are beginning to travel again with Mexico a prime destination since it is one one of the only countries opened to Americans/Canadians with no entry restrictions.

 

Hank

 

Hank 

[FlyerTalker]

8 hours ago, waterbug123 said:

Really?  I've flown Southwest several times since covid hit and there is always a question at check-in, whether its online or at the check in desk, asking if you've experienced any covid-like symptoms or been exposed to anyone you know had covid in the prior 2 weeks.  Granted, they have to take you at your word, but they do ask. 

 

 

Shades of the old "Did you pack this bag yourself?"  "Did anyone ask you to carry anything for them?" "Have your bags been in your control since you packed them?"

 

That was theater....this now is theater.