Will the cruise lines follow the QANTAS lead on vaccination policy?

[clo]

1 minute ago, Mary229 said:

maybe but how often do we speak of Zika, West Nile,  MERS and so on. As the DH loves to quote "it depends on whose ox is being gored".  On CC we are likely more obsessed with this topic and vaccine than a Facebook group composed of under 30s and they are next up to rule the world.    I think it is actually a benefit of human psyche that we move on otherwise we really would go crazy.  

 

5 minutes ago, clo said:

(9/11)

Oops, major typo. Sept. 2022 is the soonest we will cruise.

[Shmoo here]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Are you unaware of the fact that one of the primary reasons for vaccination is to prevent the spread of disease to others - and not just to protect the person being vaccinated? 

My husband was reading today that they don't know for sure that the vaccines currently close to availability do prevent the person receiving the vaccine from spreading the disease, only that it stops the person from getting the disease.

[clo]

21 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

My husband was reading today that they don't know for sure that the vaccines currently close to availability do prevent the person receiving the vaccine from spreading the disease, only that it stops the person from getting the disease.

Someone mentioned that here, I believe, yesterday. I couldn't find anything about it. That would be very interesting.

[Shmoo here]

1 minute ago, clo said:

Someone mentioned that here, I believe, yesterday. I couldn't find anything about it. That would be very interesting.

https://nypost.com/2020/11/24/moderna-boss-says-covid-shot-not-proven-to-stop-virus-spread/

 

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/verify/will-covid-vaccine-stop-people-from-spreading-virus-verify/65-980a9c42-2790-4658-96ff-26d144fc6bb8

[electro]

23 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

My husband was reading today that they don't know for sure that the vaccines currently close to availability do prevent the person receiving the vaccine from spreading the disease, only that it stops the person from getting the disease.

But if everyone is vaccinated, there will be no one to spread the virus too.

[Shmoo here]

Just now, electro said:

But if everyone is vaccinated, there will be no one to spread the virus too.

I doubt that everyone will be vaccinated.  

[electro]

11 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

I doubt that everyone will be vaccinated.  

Well, hopefully, an overwhelming majority.

In Canada, the most recent survey says that 78% of Canadian say they will get the vaccine when it is available. That will go a long way to herd immunity.

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, electro said:

Well, hopefully, an overwhelming majority.

In Canada, the most recent survey says that 78% of Canadian say they will get the vaccine when it is available. That will go a long way to herd immunity.

While the experts in the articles say that "best guess" is that with 90% efficacy, and 70% vaccinated, that herd immunity will be "achieved", but it only takes one case from outside the "herd" to infect one of those 22% relying on herd immunity to spread through that segment of the population.

[Shmoo here]

44 minutes ago, electro said:

Well, hopefully, an overwhelming majority.

In Canada, the most recent survey says that 78% of Canadian say they will get the vaccine when it is available. That will go a long way to herd immunity.

The question is whether a vaccine will actually prevent transmission of the disease.  It's possible to get the vaccine, so that you don't catch the disease, but if you've been exposed you could still transmit it to others.  And, if a large percentage of people don't vaccinate, then you still have a problem

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Shmoo here said:

My husband was reading today that they don't know for sure that the vaccines currently close to availability do prevent the person receiving the vaccine from spreading the disease, only that it stops the person from getting the disease.

From several articles I have read (I will try to recall and post citations), the way vaccines ordinarily function is they trigger the human body’s defenses -preventing the multiplication of the invading virus - thereby limiting the likelihood of there being large numbers to pass along to others.

[electro]

4 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

The question is whether a vaccine will actually prevent transmission of the disease.  It's possible to get the vaccine, so that you don't catch the disease, but if you've been exposed you could still transmit it to others.  And, if a large percentage of people don't vaccinate, then you still have a problem

That is absolutely true, so hopefully when more data becomes available if will be found that the vaccine does prevent transmission.

It also emphasizes the need for people to get vaccinated.

[SelectSys]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

The point remains that this isn't a Canada issue. This is a world issue. Until a sufficient amount of the world population has access to the vaccine, a business can't make it a requirement of use. What good is it to be able to fly to India, if no one in India could board the plan to fly back... If this gets implemented in before mid-late 2021 I will be surprised. 

 

A business can absolutely make this a requirement and as the QANTAS example shows, will do what they perceive is in their commercial self-interest. 

 

It should also be obvious to anyone that the world won't open on a uniform basis.  Nor will the vaccine be available on a uniform basis.  As always, things roll down hill starting in rich countries like Canada and then over time to more places and poorer groups.   I am really amazed the Canadian government contracted for about 10 doses per citizen!  I am sure the Canadians will donate some of these to other countries after they have met their own need.

 

The "good news," if you can call it that, is that those Indians most likely to fly (i.e., the rich/upper middle class)  will have access to the vaccine earlier than than the average Indian I would bet.  They may end up buying some of the excess Canadian vaccine doses on the open market.

 

BTW - Your timing really isn't that far off of my expectation.  I really don't expect travel to be really "back in force" for leisure travel until later in 2021.  Because of reduced capacity and pent up demand, be ready to pay more once things restart!

 

[sfaaa]

28 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

.  Because of reduced capacity and pent up demand, be ready to pay more once things restart!

 

But not if you book now and lock in the 2020 prices.

[navybankerteacher]

A major consideration is whether the vaccine contains live virus - in which case the person vaccinated could shed developing live virus to others until his production of anti-bodies fully kicked in.  

 

It is my understanding that all the Covid vaccines under development do not involve live virus, so that should not be an issue -- while the developing antibodies would make it extremely unlikely for the vaccinated individual to shed live virus.

 

Of course, much observation is still needed to obtain data upon which to base firm  conclusions.   Despite the contentions of some that the best experts in the field are not reliable because they have reversed  their positions on some matters --- we (the entire human community) are still in the learning process -- and very few are infallible when confronting a new challenge.  Any competent scientist will be willing to adjust his views as his understanding grows.  The one incapable of doing so is incapable of learning -- and is best ignored.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, SelectSys said:

 

A business can absolutely make this a requirement and as the QANTAS example shows, will do what they perceive is in their commercial self-interest. 

 

It should also be obvious to anyone that the world won't open on a uniform basis.  Nor will the vaccine be available on a uniform basis.  As always, things roll down hill starting in rich countries like Canada and then over time to more places and poorer groups.   I am really amazed the Canadian government contracted for about 10 doses per citizen!  I am sure the Canadians will donate some of these to other countries after they have met their own need.

 

The "good news," if you can call it that, is that those Indians most likely to fly (i.e., the rich/upper middle class)  will have access to the vaccine earlier than than the average Indian I would bet.  They may end up buying some of the excess Canadian vaccine doses on the open market.

 

BTW - Your timing really isn't that far off of my expectation.  I really don't expect travel to be really "back in force" for leisure travel until later in 2021.  Because of reduced capacity and pent up demand, be ready to pay more once things restart!

 

my point was more that a business won’t institute this requirement if it stops them from booking customers due to inability to get the vaccine. I don’t know how the vaccine will be distributed in India, but will hopefully follow what I think most of the developed world is doing which is at risk populations first snd low risk populations last. Not simply rich first and poor last. You shouldn’t be in a situation where you booked an airline ticket but due to the fact that you are young and healthy and haven’t gotten the vaccine yet, you can’t fly.

 

once the vaccine is as easily accessible as the flu vaccine I am completely in favor of it being required to travel, flu, cruise, etc

Edited November 24, 2020 by sanger727

[cruisemom42]

5 hours ago, sanger727 said:

my point was more that a business won’t institute this requirement if it stops them from booking customers due to inability to get the vaccine.

 

I think QANTAS will. When you look at the COVID situation in Australia, where QANTAS is based, it makes perfect sense for international flights, which is what they are saying. They have so few infections in Australia that I can see they would want anyone flying in to be vaccinated, and for health reasons, anyone leaving Australia has likely not been exposed and should have the vaccination, if only to avoid bringing COVID back to the country when they return.

 

[crazyank]

On 11/23/2020 at 9:37 PM, navybankerteacher said:

t is not “always up to you to follow them or not” .  If the policy is “no vaccine = no boarding”  you WILL follow them, or you wil stay home.

Yep,  hopefully the policy is strictly enforced

[ilikeanswers]

21 hours ago, Mary229 said:

maybe but how often do we speak of Zika, West Nile,  MERS and so on. As the DH loves to quote "it depends on whose ox is being gored".  On CC we are likely more obsessed with this topic and vaccine than a Facebook group composed of under 30s and they are next up to rule the world.    I think it is actually a benefit of human psyche that we move on otherwise we really would go crazy.  

 

But none of those were pandemics. COVID 19 has upended the world, nowhere has been untouched. This sort of global disruption won't be as easily forgotten if anything it has exposed how fragile our systems are and has been a real shock for developed nations who never realised how unprepared they were. We will be talking and studying about COVID 19 the way we still study and discuss the Black Death despite it being centuries ago😕.

[Hlitner]

19 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

From several articles I have read (I will try to recall and post citations), the way vaccines ordinarily function is they trigger the human body’s defenses -preventing the multiplication of the invading virus - thereby limiting the likelihood of there being large numbers to pass along to others.

Yeah it is an interesting sub topic we used to discuss in the office (when I worked) about vaccines in general.  Does a vaccine prevent infection (the ideal) or just prevent disease (less ideal).  It if only prevents disease then it is possible that a person would get infected with COVID but never have any disease symptoms.  The person would not even know they are infected and life goes on.  But then the question becomes can that infected person spread the virus to another person who might later develop disease symptoms.  Those are questions that many have about these early COVID vaccines and we have not seen the data to support any answers.  You can be sure that the FDA Panel that is now reviewing the vaccines will also be looking for the answers to these questions.  

 

I think it really gets to complex issues beyond most of our pay grades.  For example, it is possible that a vaccinated person gets the virus but then their immune system quickly shuts that virus down and the person never gets the disease.  But they may still harbor some of the live virus but would they have enough viral load to pass this virus on to other folks (some of whom may not be vaccinated).  I guess this is why the virologists earn the big bucks :).

 

A physician friend of mine argues that this is not relevant to much of the public since they get a vaccine and are protected.  But the anti vax folks (and those that cannot take a vaccine for health reasons) would still have something to worry about.  And cruise ships would also have to be concerned about those who are not vaccinated...but this is easily handled by simply requiring everyone boarding a ship to be vaccinated.

 

Hank

 

 

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

But none of those were pandemics. COVID 19 has upended the world, nowhere has been untouched. This sort of global disruption won't be as easily forgotten if anything it has exposed how fragile our systems are and has been a real shock for developed nations who never realised how unprepared they were. We will be talking and studying about COVID 19 the way we still study and discuss the Black Death despite it being centuries ago😕.

It appears in the rear view mirror to be a pandemic for a certain demographic.  I don't foresee long lines of 30 somethings and younger for the vaccine. Measles is a problem and that is where I started this subthread, that no one asks for a MMR certification to travel.   Zika was pretty bad here in Texas because of our migrant, youthful population and there was an alert made but never an alarm. Actually at the time I remarked to my associates that people were being fairly cavalier about their concern for Zika, as their ox was not being gored.    I stick by my statement that in 3 years we will be on to a new worry and Covid vaccines will not be held in special regard anymore than a MMR or Polio vaccine

Edited November 25, 2020 by Mary229

[Hlitner]

23 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

It appears in the rear view mirror to be a pandemic for a certain demographic.  I don't foresee long lines of 30 somethings and younger for the vaccine. Measles is a problem and that is where I started this subthread, that no one asks for a MMR certification to travel.   Zika was pretty bad here in Texas because of our migrant, youthful population and there was an alert made but never an alarm. Actually at the time I remarked to my associates that people were being fairly cavalier about their concern for Zika, as their ox was not being gored.    I stick by my statement that in 3 years we will be on to a new worry and Covid vaccines will not be held in special regard anymore than a MMR or Polio vaccine

Many decades ago governments and many folks were proactive when it came to vaccines.  So, at one time you could not travel to many countries unless you had a smallpox vaccination certificate.  There were also other requirements in parts of the world such as a Yellow Fever Vaccine Certificate (I still have one of those).  But gradually most of the vaccine requirements disappeared.  But about 4 years ago we began to see new outbreaks of diseases such as measles and whooping cough.  While governments did not get involved, there were many hospitals here in the USA (especially in NYC) that mandated certain vaccines if one wanted to visit a patient.  So, when our DD had our grandson about 3 1/2 years ago both DW and myself had to get new DTap shots because NYC had a whooping cough outbreak.  

 

I think COVID will change everything when it comes to vaccines just like 9/11 changed everything when it came to airline security.  Many countries are going to require COVID vaccinations for entry and it might even become a new International standard.  Whether this is expanded to other vaccines such as flu and MMR is a big question, but it is the nature of governments to demand more...not less.

 

Why will COVID change everything?  Because the world's reaction to COVID has turned out to be very very expensive.  No government is going to again risk that kind of economic disaster when avoidance is relatively simple (i.e. mandate a vaccine).  It will be the same on cruise ships, many airlines, and probably with many employers.  The willingness of most here in the USA to accept government controls and giving up constitutional rights is indicative of a new attitude where folks are willing to live under a dictatorship without as much as a whimper.  Here in Pennsylvania our governor issued an order this past Monday that all bars and restaurants had to halt alcohol sales tonight at 5pm until tomorrow morning.  This was arbitrary, came without warning and is not supported by science.  It is simply a governor and Secretary of Health imposing a new restriction without any hearing, due process, discussion, etc.  For the most part the public accepts this kind of thing.  What will come next?  Well, in New York State we just heard that Governor Cuomo has ordered "checkpoints" on some key roads into New York.  The last time I heard about "checkpoints" was when the Nazis would do stuff like this in WWII.  Now we have them between neighboring States and nobody complains?  Perhaps next week there will be new checkpoints at the end of your street and you will be told you are not allowed to leave your neighborhood without "papers" issued by your governor.  A lesson from history is that once folks willingly give up their freedom they are not likely to get that freedom back without a real fight.   This makes me wonder if wearing masks on cruise ships will become the new normal and not end even after COVID.

 

 

[iancal]

In Canada, several provinces joined together and  instituted 'checkpoints' to maintain a covid bubble.  Those who were not residents did not get into the bubble area.

 

The result to my knowledge...this area had far, far less cases of covid and covid deaths absolutely and proportionally than any other area in the country.  The rest of the country is envious of their success and of their politicians who put aside politics to proactively do the right thing at the right time.

 

  In essence they were trying to do what Australia did.  So far it has worked exceptionally well and there has been a great deal of public support because of this.  This was about public health and safety.  It was not about freedom nor was freedom an issue.

Edited November 25, 2020 by iancal

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Mary229 said:

It appears in the rear view mirror to be a pandemic for a certain demographic.  I don't foresee long lines of 30 somethings and younger for the vaccine. Measles is a problem and that is where I started this subthread, that no one asks for a MMR certification to travel.   Zika was pretty bad here in Texas because of our migrant, youthful population and there was an alert made but never an alarm. Actually at the time I remarked to my associates that people were being fairly cavalier about their concern for Zika, as their ox was not being gored.    I stick by my statement that in 3 years we will be on to a new worry and Covid vaccines will not be held in special regard anymore than a MMR or Polio vaccine

If this pandemic is not a concern for those under 30, why have so many college football games been cancelled? And the cancellation of college basketball games is just beginning. In fact colleges in general have been having a hard time.

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

If this pandemic is not a concern for those under 30, why have so many college football games been cancelled? And the cancellation of college basketball games is just beginning. In fact colleges in general have been having a hard time.

Look I am just commenting on human nature, they don't get the flu shot now. The ones who will get it are those who are required to do so by their employer or school or other institution but I just don't see your run of the mill under 30 running out to get a vaccine.  

 

Here are the facts drawn from CDC data

"Vaccination coverage among adults over 65 has ranged from a high of 66.7% in 2014 to a low of 59.6% in 2017, staying above the 50% mark for the past 10 years.

The age group with the lowest percentage receiving flu shots is those between 18 and 49. Vaccination coverage for this group ranged from a high of 33.6% in 2016 to a low of 26.9% in 2017."

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/25/michael-burgess/how-many-adults-get-flu-shots-each-year/

 

 I don't have dog in this fight.  I follow the rules, I will get the vaccine.  The only strong view I have on this are toward those who attempt to dissuade others not to take the vaccine. 

[ontheweb]

12 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Look I am just commenting on human nature, they don't get the flu shot now. The ones who will get it are those who are required to do so by their employer or school or other institution but I just don't see your run of the mill under 30 running out to get a vaccine.  

 

Here are the facts drawn from CDC data

"Vaccination coverage among adults over 65 has ranged from a high of 66.7% in 2014 to a low of 59.6% in 2017, staying above the 50% mark for the past 10 years.

The age group with the lowest percentage receiving flu shots is those between 18 and 49. Vaccination coverage for this group ranged from a high of 33.6% in 2016 to a low of 26.9% in 2017."

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/25/michael-burgess/how-many-adults-get-flu-shots-each-year/

 

 I don't have dog in this fight.  I follow the rules, I will get the vaccine.  The only strong view I have on this are toward those who attempt to dissuade others not to take the vaccine. 

I spoke recently with a nephew who is presently a college senior, and asked him how things are going. His answer was basically that virtual college was not good.

 

I wonder if at least the subset of under 30s who are attending college will have a more positive attitude about preventive vaccinations, if not the flu shot at least the Covid shot.