International Travelers May Need to get Virus Vaccinations

[JMAUST]

On 11/26/2020 at 6:25 AM, Horizon chaser 1957 said:

Quantas has already announced that once the vaccine is available, they will require proof of vaccination prior to boarding. Odds are they won’t be alone in that.

Yes you are right. Qantas has stated no Jab no Fly on international routes. They are copping a lot of flak from some who fell it is their right to have a choice. 

[Hlitner]

7 minutes ago, JMAUST said:

Yes you are right. Qantas has stated no Jab no Fly on international routes. They are copping a lot of flak from some who fell it is their right to have a choice. 

Yes, it is their right to have a choice.  Fly or no fly!  It will be the same with cruising.  Cruise or no cruise.  I suspect it will be the same with entering most countries.  No vaccine no entry.  

 

Hank

[voyageur9]

]

34 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

it is their right to have a choice.  Fly or no fly!  It will be the same with cruising.  Cruise or no cruise.  I suspect it will be the same with entering most countries.  No vaccine no entry.  

Hank is absolutely right.

 

Already there are plenty of countries who (quite reasonably) bar entry to those who fail/decide against/have some ideological objection to basic vaccinations. I've a yellow book full of vaccinations required by a slew of countries and intended to protect their populations. 

 

Those who, for whatever reason, are not vaccinated against COVID will be barred from entry by many corporations and countries. So be it. Perhaps there will be, for instance, cruise lines which tout COVID vaccination-free cruises for those with a special sense of adventure. Doesn't seem like a great business plan to me but who knows.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by voyageur9
typose

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, voyageur9 said:

]

Hank is absolutely right.

 

Already there are plenty of countries who (quite reasonably) bar entry to those who fail/decide against/have some ideological objection to basic vaccinations. I've a yellow book full of vaccinations required by a slew of countries and intended to protect their populations. 

 

Those who, for whatever reason, are not vaccinated against COVID will be barred from entry by many corporations and countries. So be it. Perhaps there will be, for instance, cruise lines which tout COVID vaccination-free cruises for those with a special sense of adventure. Doesn't seem like a great business plan to me but who knows.

 

 

 

 

I seriously doubt if there will be any "vaccination free" cruises that involve a US Port.  The CDC will have even more power under a Biden administration and they will likely amend their Guidelines to mandate vaccinations for everyone who steps onto a cruise ship that calls at a US port.  It is also likely that the EU will adopt a similar stance.  I can tell you that after working a lifetime in government healthcare there has long been many public health experts and officials frustrated by the anti-vax folks.  But until COVID there was not enough political will to force the issue.  COVID has changed everything and the anti-vaxers will live in a very limited world.  They are going to find that vaccination is necessary for travel, flying, many jobs, many school systems, etc.   If they are willing to live with those kind of restrictions then they can likely avoid being vaccinated.

 

Hank

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

Just now, Hlitner said:

I seriously doubt if there will be any "vaccination free" cruises that involve a US Port.  The CDC will have even more power under a Biden administration and they will likely amend their Guidelines to mandate vaccinations for everyone who steps onto a cruise ship that calls at a US port.  It is also likely that the EU will adopt a similar stance.  I can tell you that after working a lifetime in government healthcare there has long been many public health experts and officials frustrated by the anti-vax folks.  But until COVID there was not enough political will to force the issue.  COVID has changed everything and the anti-vaxers will live in a very limited world.  They are going to find that vaccination is necessary for travel, flying, many jobs, many school systems, etc.   If they are willing to live with those kind of restrictions then they can likely avoid being vaccinated.

 

Hank

 

 

 

[iancal]

The writing is on the wall.  

 

I suspect that IF you wish to travel internationally or take a cruise be prepared to have a covid vaccination.  At least for the foreseeable future.

 

If not, stay home or make plans for a domestic vacation.

 

The choice will be yours.

 

 

 

i

Edited November 27, 2020 by iancal

[Horizon chaser 1957]

1 hour ago, JMAUST said:

Yes you are right. Qantas has stated no Jab no Fly on international routes. They are copping a lot of flak from some who fell it is their right to have a choice. 

One of the biggest parts of the ‘new normal’ may be a major course correction to the current belief that what you demand,  what you’re entitled to, and your inalienable rights are all the same thing. With this comes the assumption that your demands  supersede the rights of anyone else, and you have are no corresponding responsibilities.

If indeed there is a right to have a choice, part of the choice not to be vaccinated is the decision to forgo travel, among other sacrifices.

* I use ‘you’ in the generic sense, not the personal sense.

[kazu]

1 hour ago, Horizon chaser 1957 said:

One of the biggest parts of the ‘new normal’ may be a major course correction to the current belief that what you demand,  what you’re entitled to, and your inalienable rights are all the same thing. With this comes the assumption that your demands  supersede the rights of anyone else, and you have are no corresponding responsibilities.

If indeed there is a right to have a choice, part of the choice not to be vaccinated is the decision to forgo travel, among other sacrifices.

* I use ‘you’ in the generic sense, not the personal sense.

 

 

And that is not necessarily a bad thing.  It’s time to get away from the “me” philosophy and back to the “we” and caring  about each other and putting others before yourself.

 

together we are strong - divided we are weak, we all need to work together.

Together, we conquer this until the vaccine comes and when it does, take it if you want to travel.  If you don’t care about travelling, fine.  My crystal ball is still fuzzy and foggy but I am pretty confident that it is the way it is going to go.  In fact, I even think it might be the way to get across our border here when we open to the United States. (Whenever that happens)  Time will tell

A

[Mary229]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Mary, You should visit our part of the country.....if you dare.  We have some Governors here who are the Amazing Power Trip.  Governor Cuomo (NY)  and Mayor DeBlasio has even set up "check points" (papers please) at bridges, tunnels, airports, train stations and bus stations at New York City.  In our State if you come to visit you are required to get tested within 3 days (not easy to do around here) or quarantine for 14 days!  Other States in this region have other restrictions although nobody can equal New York with their "Check Points."   That kind of reminds me of Nazi Germany in WWII where there were checkpoints.  Once there is a vaccine I can imagine Governor Cuomo having roadblocks on all roads into his State with a mandatory vaccine requirement to pass.....or you will be sent to some dungeon for at least 2 weeks. And that dungeon will already be full of all the impoverished restaurant owners and employees that can no longer afford a roof over their head or a hot meal.  They would normally give you free hot meals in the schools but they are closed!

 

The reality is that I can cross some International borders with less hassle then going to NYC!  Go figure.

 

Hank 

No one has sued yet.  That’s what will have to happen.   The constitution has pretty good guidelines about interstate issues and there are plenty of precedents. Perhaps the crisis will subside before going to court. 

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, voyageur9 said:

]

Hank is absolutely right.

 

Already there are plenty of countries who (quite reasonably) bar entry to those who fail/decide against/have some ideological objection to basic vaccinations. I've a yellow book full of vaccinations required by a slew of countries and intended to protect their populations. 

 

Those who, for whatever reason, are not vaccinated against COVID will be barred from entry by many corporations and countries. So be it. Perhaps there will be, for instance, cruise lines which tout COVID vaccination-free cruises for those with a special sense of adventure. Doesn't seem like a great business plan to me but who knows.

 

 

 

 

A cruise advertised as vaccination less will have less chance of succeeding than the smoke free ships that Carnival once advertised had. (Though they were a much better idea.)

[OzCanuck]

I am guessing there is a large intersection between anti-vaccination cohort and never had a passport cohort. But that’s just a hunch...

[iancal]

We travel frequently.  International-sometimes with cruises along the way.   We hope to start traveling again in Sept/Oct. 

 

A travel vendor will have a huge  competitive advantage with us IF that vendor makes proof of covid vaccination a condition of the sale.  We will pay more to a vendor that insists on this over one that does not.

 

We do not however believe that this will an issue for travel vendors.   We suspect that many countries will have this requirement as a condition of entry hence travel vendors offering international offerings will have no choice but to make proof of vaccination a condition of sale.

 

No idea what will happen with domestic travel in some countries.  We can envisage some countries implementing the requirement for a time.  Others may not or cannot. 

 

One thing we are doing with our post covid travel plans is selecting those countries on our respective bucket lists that have done a first rate job of protecting their citizens from the covid scourge based on international stats.  We will avoid those at the bottom of the list for the time being.  Not even interested in changing planes in those countries if possible.

Edited November 27, 2020 by iancal

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

A travel vendor will have a huge  competitive advantage with us IF that vendor makes proof of covid vaccination a condition of the sale.  We will pay more to a vendor that insists on this over one that does not.

 

As someone who works for an international company with lots of travel back and forth between Europe and the US, I can predict that the airlines requiring proof of vaccination would likely have a booking edge with business travelers -- which make up a good chunk of that market with possible exception of the summer months. 

 

Because of that, and other valid reasons (e.g., country requirements), I agree that for airlines it will likely be "No vaccination, no international travel".

 

[Horizon chaser 1957]

17 hours ago, Mary229 said:

No one has sued yet.  That’s what will have to happen.   The constitution has pretty good guidelines about interstate issues and there are plenty of precedents. Perhaps the crisis will subside before going to court. 

Given the backlog in most legal systems, I suspect that if someone sues, the pandemic will be over long before the case makes it into the courtroom.

[wdw1972]

18 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

And that is not necessarily a bad thing.  It’s time to get away from the “me” philosophy and back to the “we” and caring  about each other and putting others before yourself.

 

together we are strong - divided we are weak, we all need to work together.

Together, we conquer this until the vaccine comes and when it does, take it if you want to travel.  If you don’t care about travelling, fine.  My crystal ball is still fuzzy and foggy but I am pretty confident that it is the way it is going to go.  In fact, I even think it might be the way to get across our border here when we open to the United States. (Whenever that happens)  Time will tell

A

Bravo - excellent response.  We are where we are today (way behind the curve on covid) due to the "me me me" mentality so prevalent out there.  If it was a virus that only killed the people who caught it but they weren't able to spread it to others I wouldn't care - we all should take personal responsibility and if we don't, then so be it.  But, we don't have the right to put others at risk, which unfortunately is what we're doing with this virus.

 

Whatever it takes, I'm sick of my cruises being canceled (4 of them, and I'm not even retired, lol) and now holding out hope for a REAL cruise (longer than 7 nights, hopefully without masks and a port "bubble" in December 2021.

 

Sue/WDW1972

[Horizon chaser 1957]

19 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

And that is not necessarily a bad thing.  It’s time to get away from the “me” philosophy and back to the “we” and caring  about each other and putting others before yourself.

 

together we are strong - divided we are weak, we all need to work together.

Together, we conquer this until the vaccine comes and when it does, take it if you want to travel.  If you don’t care about travelling, fine.  My crystal ball is still fuzzy and foggy but I am pretty confident that it is the way it is going to go.  In fact, I even think it might be the way to get across our border here when we open to the United States. (Whenever that happens)  Time will tell

A

Yes! Exactly the point I was trying to make. Society has degraded significantly from when  JFK said ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.’

The immediate pre-Covid normal was not a culturally healthy place to be. l

[AlanF65]

United Airline started shipping today in readiness of approval

 

"United Airlines Holdings Inc. UAL -0.74% on Friday began operating charter flights to position doses of Pfizer Inc.’s PFE 1.92% Covid-19 vaccine for quick distribution if the shots are approved by regulators, according to people familiar with the matter.

The initial flights are one link in a global supply chain being assembled to tackle the logistical challenge of distributing Covid-19 vaccines. Pfizer has been laying the groundwork to move quickly if it gets approval from the Food and Drug Administration and other regulators world-wide."

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-begins-flying-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-11606512293

[Lazz]

I am not a legal or medical expert by any means, but is there a legal argument that a vaccine is not needed when the recovery rate is so high?  Not trying to start arguments, just want someone with more knowledge to offer an opinion. Estimated recovery rates from the CDC:

 

0-19: 99.997% 20-49: 99.98% 50-69: 99.5% 70+: 94.6%

Edited November 28, 2020 by Lazz

[igraf]

On 11/24/2020 at 2:38 PM, rafinmd said:

A challenge I see is that so far the first 2 vaccines seem to suppress Covid symptoms, and have not been determined to reduce Covid infections.  If that is the case, a vaccinated person could still spread the disease.  The Astra Zenica vaccine does seem to reduce infections.  That is what we need to increase herd immunity.  Not sure if travelers will be required to certify which vaccine they have been given.

 

Roy

 

The issue is moot if everyone is vaccinated.  There will be no one to get sick.

 

igraf

 

 

[Lido deck main]

1 hour ago, Lazz said:

I am not a legal or medical expert by any means, but is there a legal argument that a vaccine is not needed when the recovery rate is so high?  Not trying to start arguments, just want someone with more knowledge to offer an opinion. Estimated recovery rates from the CDC:

 

0-19: 99.997% 20-49: 99.98% 50-69: 99.5% 70+: 94.6%

Oh sure tell that to all the surviving family members who have lost loved ones.  Also some people who do “recover” are experiencing long term negative health effects.  There should never be an acceptable percentage of the population to die from a disease where we as a world community can protect them.  If people want to put their own lives at risk go ahead but people don’t have the right to put others at risk. No vaccine, no nothing.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Lazz said:

I am not a legal or medical expert by any means, but is there a legal argument that a vaccine is not needed when the recovery rate is so high?  Not trying to start arguments, just want someone with more knowledge to offer an opinion. Estimated recovery rates from the CDC:

 

0-19: 99.997% 20-49: 99.98% 50-69: 99.5% 70+: 94.6%

 

Measles is also not extraordinarily deadly -- however, it IS highly contagious and some people go on to have severe sequelae after illness. While COVID is not as infectious as measles, it is more infectious than influenza, and it seems to be emerging that people also can have long term ill effects from infection. I see no reason not to strongly recommend vaccination from the public health point of view, and personally, I would feel much more comfortable to start traveling again knowing everyone on the plane (or ship) with me is vaccinated. I think many others have the same attitude. Coupled with a high likelihood that at least some countries will also mandate having it for entry, I think it is likely to become a requirement.

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, Lazz said:

I am not a legal or medical expert by any means, but is there a legal argument that a vaccine is not needed when the recovery rate is so high?  Not trying to start arguments, just want someone with more knowledge to offer an opinion. Estimated recovery rates from the CDC:

 

0-19: 99.997% 20-49: 99.98% 50-69: 99.5% 70+: 94.6%

And in a country of over 350 million, with those recovery rates, over 1 million people die. I don’t think that’s what we want.

[iancal]

No problem. If you believe that the vaccine is not necessary then do not get it.  It comes down to choice and we will no doubt have choice.   Just like sovereign countries and international carriers will have the choice as to whether to make it a condition of entry or passage.

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, Lazz said:

I am not a legal or medical expert by any means, but is there a legal argument that a vaccine is not needed when the recovery rate is so high?  Not trying to start arguments, just want someone with more knowledge to offer an opinion. Estimated recovery rates from the CDC:

 

0-19: 99.997% 20-49: 99.98% 50-69: 99.5% 70+: 94.6%

You are right, you are not an expert :).  It appears that the mortality rate from COVID is 7-10 times more then the seasonal flu...which already causes too many deaths.  But what is not often discussed about COVID are all the morbidity problems with new issues being discovered nearly every day.  These morbidities, some of which may have life long consequences are often ignored by both the media and the usual anti-vaxers.  So lets go down a short list including the most recent discovery (just in the past week) with some folks who recover from COVID now having teeth fall out!  This appears to be related to COVID having caused circulatory problems that destroyed the teeth and some surrounding gum.  Then we have the folks who have lost their sense of taste and smell (we have a friend who has this problem since last March).   And we must not forget those with permanent lung damage, cardiac damage, kidney failure, lost limbs due to circulatory disorders, brain damage, etc.   So, when you start tossing out mortality statistics you might want to also consider morbidity.  Some have taken to calling folks with morbidity problems, "long haulers."  

 

And then there is the ole health issue of "we do not know what we do not know."  Given the incredible number of post COVID morbidity issues it may be months or even years until we start to get an understanding of just how many serious problems (both temporary and permanent) are related to COVID.  Has me thinking back a very long time ago when folks thought that mumps was not a big deal since it was not a killer.  Then years later they discovered that many men were rendered sterile because they had the mumps.  And then we had all the parents who intentionally gave their children chicken pox, when they were still pre schoolers, so they would not have to worry about it when they got older.  They did not realize that because those kids got chicken pox they were now candidates to later get Shingles which can cause lots of discomfort and permanent including blindness.

 

Hank 

[Hlitner]

10 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

You are right, you are not an expert :).  It appears that the mortality rate from COVID is 7-10 times more then the seasonal flu...which already causes too many deaths.  But what is not often discussed about COVID are all the morbidity problems with new issues being discovered nearly every day.  These morbidities, some of which may have life long consequences are often ignored by both the media and the usual anti-vaxers.  So lets go down a short list including the most recent discovery (just in the past week) with some folks who recover from COVID now having teeth fall out!  This appears to be related to COVID having caused circulatory problems that destroyed the teeth and some surrounding gum.  Then we have the folks who have lost their sense of taste and smell (we have a friend who has this problem since last March).   And we must not forget those with permanent lung damage, cardiac damage, kidney failure, lost limbs due to circulatory disorders, brain damage, etc.   So, when you start tossing out mortality statistics you might want to also consider morbidity.  Some have taken to calling folks with morbidity problems, "long haulers."   By the way, you might want to consider that the number of US deaths from COVID are now about 5 times the number of deaths we suffered during the entire Vietnam War.  And the death toll increases every day.

 

And then there is the ole health issue of "we do not know what we do not know."  Given the incredible number of post COVID morbidity issues it may be months or even years until we start to get an understanding of just how many serious problems (both temporary and permanent) are related to COVID.  Has me thinking back a very long time ago when folks thought that mumps was not a big deal since it was not a killer.  Then years later they discovered that many men were rendered sterile because they had the mumps.  And then we had all the parents who intentionally gave their children chicken pox, when they were still pre schoolers, so they would not have to worry about it when they got older.  They did not realize that because those kids got chicken pox they were now candidates to later get Shingles which can cause lots of discomfort and permanent damage including blindness.

 

Hank