May need help with this one

[klfrodo]

Have a 5 week trip planned for June/July 2021 flying from US to London, train to Paris, Cruise out of Rome, flight to Barcelona for a few days, then return the the States.

 

Have been planning this trip for 2 years. Built in contingency plans due to Covid. etc.etc

 

Here is what I didn't plan.

Mom may not let my  (16yo) granddaughter go with us if proof of titer vaccination is required. She is anti vax. Not my concern. I respect her wishes as the mother of the child. Mother works in healthcare and was willing to show proof of vaccination on written record. However, titer results are much more difficult to falsify.

Grandma and I are going regardless. Could put it off another year but who's to say we'll be around another year or if requirement of titer proof will change.

 

I do have trip cancellation and medical insurance with waiver of pre-existing conditions (TravelSafe).

 

What are your thoughts ole guru's of travel insurance

[Hlitner]

I would expect that all International travelers will need to have some kind of proof of vaccination (likely a receipt or issued vaccination card that is now being widely discussed) as a condition of travel.  If the Granddaughter and/or mother have anti/vax issues the granddaughter will not likely be able to travel outside the USA.    My hunch is that no travel insurer is going to pay a claim for a person who is denied travel because they refuse to get a vaccination.   How proof will be demanded is still an open question.  As to falsifying results (this is already happening in Europe) folks should be aware that it would likely be viewed as fraudulent by the officials of any country requiring proof.  Whether they would get caught is an open question, but I assume the penalty would be having to immediately return home (at their own expense) and also forfeit their entire cruise fare (no insurance company will pay a claim based on fraud).

 

In this situation perhaps you might want to look out for #1 and make sure that you are insured.  As to Grandmom and Granddaughter I would make sure they pay their own cruise fare.  Protect yourself and then they can make their own decisions.

 

Now I  want to add a personal comment.  Those that are "anti-vaxers" should be willing to live (and defend) their decision.  But committing fraud is likely a crime if a vaccine is required for entry into a country.  If I were the receiving country I would toss those folks into the clink for several weeks before tossing them out of the country at their own expense.   We live in a foreign country for part of the year where I doubt they would be friendly or receptive to such fraud...and their jails are not nice places.   Governments are taking COVID seriously so this could become a nasty issue.  As to how a person gets caught, that is also an open question but we now live in a world where large data bases are pretty routine and nobody yet knows whether COVID vaccinations will become part of an international data base.

 

Hank

[klfrodo]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

.

 

In this situation perhaps you might want to look out for #1 and make sure that you are insured.  As to Grandmom and Granddaughter I would make sure they pay their own cruise fare.  Protect yourself and then they can make their own decisions.

 

 

 

Hank

FYI

As OP, my wife and I are Gma and Gpa.

We are the ones taking GD. 

We do have insurance for all 3.

 

We have stressed that GD needs vaccine to travel. Her mother is the antivaxxer. Her mom is not on this trip.  She's also an RN in a rural part of a very red state. She says no vaccine. (of course this trip was planned way before any thought of Covid)

Mom says that if all she needs is written proof of vaccine (Yellow Card), then she'll provide it. If electronic verification is needed, then we'll have to cancel her.

Edited December 3, 2020 by klfrodo

[Hlitner]

11 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

FYI

As OP, my wife and I are Gma and Gpa.

We are the ones taking GD. 

We do have insurance for all 3.

 

We have stressed that GD needs vaccine to travel. Her mother is the antivaxxer. She's also an RN in a rural part of a very red state. She says no vaccine. (of course this trip was planned way before any thought of Covid)

Mom says that if all she needs is written proof of vaccine (Yellow Card), then she'll provide it. If electronic verification is needed, then we'll have to cancel her.

Just a thought but what happens if GD then gets COVID while on your cruise?  At the very least the cruise would need to stop (just because of GD), it is possible that everyone on  the ship would need to be quarantined in their cabin for days or even weeks (just because of GD), and the ship would likely return to its original port and have to deal with extensive evacuation issues and testing (for everyone aboard).  Something to think about.  Of course this would cost the cruise line lots of money...not to mention all the issues for the others aboard.  Once it was found that GD had traveled with a fraudulent document do you think the cruise line and passengers might try and recover the lost money and lost cruise from GD?  I think that is called liability and one could only guess how much that would be for a diverted cruise.

 

Hank

 

 

[klfrodo]

41 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Just a thought but what happens if GD then gets COVID while on your cruise?  At the very least the cruise would need to stop (just because of GD), it is possible that everyone on  the ship would need to be quarantined in their cabin for days or even weeks (just because of GD), and the ship would likely return to its original port and have to deal with extensive evacuation issues and testing (for everyone aboard).  Something to think about.  Of course this would cost the cruise line lots of money...not to mention all the issues for the others aboard.  Once it was found that GD had traveled with a fraudulent document do you think the cruise line and passengers might try and recover the lost money and lost cruise from GD?  I think that is called liability and one could only guess how much that would be for a diverted cruise.

 

Hank

 

 

Something to think about. That's on Mom.

Then again, the argument could be mage that the vaccine is NOT 100% effective. So, then who is the liability on even if she did get the vaccination.

If I'm not mistaken, Liability is one of the major items holding up any relief legislation.

Edited December 4, 2020 by klfrodo

[iamtrustworthy]

7 hours ago, klfrodo said:

Have a 5 week trip planned for June/July 2021 flying from US to London, train to Paris, Cruise out of Rome, flight to Barcelona for a few days, then return the the States.

 

Have been planning this trip for 2 years. Built in contingency plans due to Covid. etc.etc

 

Here is what I didn't plan.

Mom may not let my  (16yo) granddaughter go with us if proof of titer vaccination is required. She is anti vax. Not my concern. I respect her wishes as the mother of the child. Mother works in healthcare and was willing to show proof of vaccination on written record. However, titer results are much more difficult to falsify.

 

Grandma and I are going regardless. Could put it off another year but who's to say we'll be around another year or if requirement of titer proof will change.

 

I do have trip cancellation and medical insurance with waiver of pre-existing conditions (TravelSafe).

 

What are your thoughts ole guru's of travel insurance

Hi klfrodo,

 

The only way you can be covered for your granddaughter's trip cost is with the Cancel For Any Reason.

 

Unfortunately, if you made your initial trip deposit more than 21 days ago, there aren't any plans you can get with the CFAR.

 

Is there any way your granddaughter's Mother will reimburse you for your financial loss should she not allow her daughter to get vaccinated?

 

Steve Dasseos

[klfrodo]

1 hour ago, iamtrustworthy said:

Hi klfrodo,

 

The only way you can be covered for your granddaughter's trip cost is with the Cancel For Any Reason.

 

Unfortunately, if you made your initial trip deposit more than 21 days ago, there aren't any plans you can get with the CFAR.

 

Is there any way your granddaughter's Mother will reimburse you for your financial loss should she not allow her daughter to get vaccinated?

 

Steve Dasseos

Initial payment and purchase of the insurance was in 2019. Before anyone ever heard of Covid. (If that makes any difference)

[Bo1953]

15 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Just a thought but what happens if GD then gets COVID while on your cruise?  At the very least the cruise would need to stop (just because of GD), it is possible that everyone on  the ship would need to be quarantined in their cabin for days or even weeks (just because of GD), and the ship would likely return to its original port and have to deal with extensive evacuation issues and testing (for everyone aboard).  Something to think about.  Of course this would cost the cruise line lots of money...not to mention all the issues for the others aboard.  Once it was found that GD had traveled with a fraudulent document do you think the cruise line and passengers might try and recover the lost money and lost cruise from GD?  I think that is called liability and one could only guess how much that would be for a diverted cruise.

 

Hank

Very good input Hank - yet it sounds to me that the OP is angling to try and make this happen under any scenario possible regardless of the risks to others.

 

Were it me, then GD cannot go under any circumstances and her mother should be brought up to the Medical Board for even thinking of fraudulently providing documents of such a nature to her child.

 

Others may think differently and that is fine, yet my thoughts only. I Am sure there will be others who are willing to provide and accept fraudulent docs and travel too, that still does not make it the correct thing to do in any case or situation, considering.

 

For many of us here on CC, this situation would never enter our mind and would squash it even if remotely suggested as an option to travel etc...

 

Even if I was to think about it, were we not able to dodge that bullet I would be overcome with such guilt that I even thought of such guile, that is just me though and a few others here, as well.

 

In health and bon voyage

Edited December 4, 2020 by Bo1953

[klfrodo]

1 hour ago, Bo1953 said:

Very good input Hank - yet it sounds to me that the OP is angling to try and make this happen under any scenario possible regardless of the risks to others.

 

 

With all due respect Bo, You're reading to much into it.

If at the end of the day, if others lives or health will be put at risk, then the GD will have to sit this one out.

I'm just trying to figure out my options. This has been my dream, I've invested hundreds of hours planning and researching, and have dropped $20K into this so far and probably another $10K to go.

Am I trying to find alternatives? Yes

Am I going to risk someone else life for this to happen? No

Edited December 4, 2020 by klfrodo

[Bo1953]

5 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

With all due respect Bo, You're reading to much into it.

If at the end of the day, if others lives or health will be put at risk, then the GD will have to sit this one out.

I'm just trying to figure out my options. This has been my dream, I've invested hundreds of hours planning and researching, and have dropped $20K into this so far and probably another $10K to go.

Am I trying to find alternatives? Yes

Am I going to risk someone else life for this to happen? No

My apologies klfrodo for over thinking it....

 

My take was based on the fact that it was indicated that an evidence of vaccination would be produced rather it was taken or not.

 

Apparently, I have mis-understood the tenor of your post and I do apologize for this, quite possible that the GD's situation threw me off and was not relevant to the original post???

 

bon voyage

[klfrodo]

26 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

My apologies klfrodo for over thinking it....

 

My take was based on the fact that it was indicated that an evidence of vaccination would be produced rather it was taken or not.

 

Apparently, I have mis-understood the tenor of your post and I do apologize for this, quite possible that the GD's situation threw me off and was not relevant to the original post???

 

bon voyage

We're all good Bo.

I have read many of your post post and find them informative and always with utmost respect.

Happy Holidays to you and yours.

[iamtrustworthy]

16 hours ago, klfrodo said:

Initial payment and purchase of the insurance was in 2019. Before anyone ever heard of Covid. (If that makes any difference)

You will still be covered for Covid as any other illness.

[Hlitner]

Let me be clear about my personal position (which is not worth much).  I spent an adult lifetime in the government healthcare insurance and healthcare regulation world.  Anti-vaxers were a constant problem and cost my program 10s of millions of dollars (which was paid by the taxpayer) because we had to pay Itfor medical care provided to folks who caught ailments that could have easily been prevented with vaccines.  But we learned years ago that arguing with anti-vaxers was a waste of time and, like many medical insurance programs, gave up the effort.  I respect the opinions of anti-vaxers (although I disagree) and actually have some understanding of their point of view.  But where I really draw a line is when anti-vaxers decide that it is OK to commit fraud.  That is a coward way out.  If you do not want to get a vaccine then you should be willing to accept the ramifications.   A RN healthcare worker who falsifies records to help themselves or another should be prosecuted and tossed in the clink (where they can use their skills to help other inmates).  I have a few anti-vaxer friends and they would never dream of falsifying a record.  In fact, their attitude would be to stick to their opinion and fight for what they see as their rights.  

 

I have posted before that I think COVID will be the end of tolerance to anti-vaxers.   They will likely need to accept that some things will be closed to them because of their refusal to get with the vaccine program.   We saw a similar situation in NYC when they got hit by a minor measles problem because some in their community simply refused to get their children MMR shots.   NY ended many of their previously allowed exemptions and folks had to comply or could not attend public or most private schools.   Playing pattycake with the anti-vaxers was fine until it threatened the public health of others and then the time for game playing was over.

 

Hank