MSC pauses cruise operations in Europe

[jimbo5544]

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/23995-msc-pausing-cruise-operations-in-europe.html

 

...and the good news continue to roll in.😎

[Até]

Unfortunate but expected.  It's much better than getting shut down due to an outbreak on the ship.

[Sunshine3601]

I am very impressed they made it without any issues for this many months.     I am glad they paused as one outbreak would have devastated all cruise lines.    So tired of the media!

Good job MSC - I am sure you will be sailing again soon!

[jimbo5544]

17 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I am very impressed they made it without any issues for this many months.     I am glad they paused as one outbreak would have devastated all cruise lines.    So tired of the media!

Good job MSC - I am sure you will be sailing again soon!

Agree, almost amazing.

[8420PR]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:40 AM, Sunshine3601 said:

I am glad they paused as one outbreak would have devastated all cruise lines.   

The reason for the pause from 20th December to 10th January is not because of the risk of COVID-19 onboard, but because the Italian Government (as well as many other EU countries) has implemented very strict travel restrictions in the period of 21st December to 6th January where travel between regions is only possible for work, medical reasons or emergencies.  

 

MSC Grandiosa the last few months demonstrates 3 key things to me:

- with pre-departure screening the number of cases onboard can be significantly reduced.

- with good onboard procedures the a confirmed COVID-19 case onboard only need impact close contacts, and the entire ship doesn't need to be quarantined (I remember 10 being the number, but can't find it again).

- There is very little consumer demand for cruises at the moment, with prices starting at €299 (USD$362) for a 7 day cruise (before discounts) possible in November, December and January (which is off-season) I think MSC is struggling to fill one capacity constrained ship.

[Sunshine3601]

Yes, I had read about the travel restrictions for Italy after I read about MSC cancelling sailings for a couple of weeks. 

IMO Italy is doing the right thing in restricting travel during the holidays

 

Yes, MSC does have good protocols in place that many other cruise lines are and will follow with some tweeks along the way.         The vaccine will help but will not be a fix all for all for everything.    It is going to take a long time before things get back to "normal" or as they keep saying "new normal". 

[Hlitner]

On 12/4/2020 at 6:40 PM, Sunshine3601 said:

I am very impressed they made it without any issues for this many months.     I am glad they paused as one outbreak would have devastated all cruise lines.    So tired of the media!

Good job MSC - I am sure you will be sailing again soon!

Actually there were issues but it was not widely reported.  In early October the MSC Grandiosa had a confirmed case of COVID during a 7 day cruise.  The Italian Health Ministry later sent e-mails to the passengers on that cruise (who were already home) warning them of the case and imploring them to take prevention measures and monitor themselves for symptoms.   Much of the info around this case remains unknown and it was never said whether this case was a passenger or crew member.  Whether that case caused further spread around Europe has also not been disclosed.  Shortly thereafter there was another incident with a suspected COVID case among the crew of the same vessel and they were denied permission to let anyone go ashore in Malta.   Again this was kept pretty quiet and MSC was less then candid in releasing information.  Apparently in Europe there is no legal requirement that cruise lines disclose this kind of info to the public.   The information did leak out when some passengers disclosed the information.  The information only came to light when some passengers posted info (and a copy of the e-mail from the Health Ministry) on some European cruise blogs.  Reports also made it some MSC Facebook pages.

 

Hank

[Até]

The lack of information regarding the MSC Grandiosa COVID-19 cases can cause suspicion but I can understand this is people's medical information.  And with the nature of these sailings what more can MSC do after someone leaves the ship.  The protocols for a case are pretty clear for those on the ship and we have to rely on the Italian and Maltan governments having agreements/protocols for protecting the rest of their people's safety.  I've seen the number 10 thrown around as being the point where that many cases would cause a cessation of Grandiosa sailing.

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, Até said:

The lack of information regarding the MSC Grandiosa COVID-19 cases can cause suspicion but I can understand this is people's medical information.  And with the nature of these sailings what more can MSC do after someone leaves the ship.  The protocols for a case are pretty clear for those on the ship and we have to rely on the Italian and Maltan governments having agreements/protocols for protecting the rest of their people's safety.  I've seen the number 10 thrown around as being the point where that many cases would cause a cessation of Grandiosa sailing.

Please do not make excuses.  It has nothing to do with the people since nobody was asking names!  It has to do with several ocean and river cruise lines, who were trying to operate in Europe, doing their best to downplay and coverup COVID problems.  There were over 160 cases (that we know about) on those limited European cruises despite only allowing cruisers from countries that seemed to be under control (COVID wise) at the time and implementing some tough measures including mandatory testing.  I think all that those European cruises did was to show the CDC (and anyone else who bothered to read the facts) that cruising with COVID and without a vaccine is not workable.  Yes, you can certainly limit COVID infections but you cannot eliminate COVID!  Consider that in the USA a majority of cruisers must fly to their ports which increases the risk coming and going.  

 

A few months ago we joined the "bandwagon" of folks who believe that safe cruising is just not possible until we have a safe/effective vaccine and the cruise line mandates that every soul that comes aboard has been vaccinated at least 1 month prior to boarding.

 

Hank

 

[Até]

I would never expect the cruise lines are going to advertise that people tested positive, however they are required to give that information to government officials at each port of call.  It's not up to the cruise lines what that government does with the information or at what level it justifies the government's termination of the cruise.  It would be very difficult to think the cases on cruise ships since the restart have had any significance or relevance in relation to their area's overall current infections.  I'm sure there will be needed protocol tweaks but I do think plenty of diligent effort went into the major line's requirements/processes and so far I haven't heard about any great outcry from the citizens, leaving out Jim Walker, that by allowing these sailings their governments are endangering the health of the general population.  In Europe the largest protests have been more about the reverse.

 

I cannot see requiring an absolute elimination of any case on a ship when we won't be able to eliminate it in our communities, that requirement will not be met for years after vaccines are widespread - if ever.  For the foreseeable future there are going to be cases and possibly even small outbreaks on the ships.  Barbados made some pretty bad mistakes and is being publicly criticized, I choose to believe that the regulators and cruise lines will learn and require mitigation protocols that will prevent any unacceptable community spread.  The last thing any government and cruise line wants now is to get busted for looking the other way and letting a cruise ship cause a significant outbreak.  And as the community infection levels becomes less I expect the requirement of a lower and lower number of cases on the ships with a long term goal of reaching zero.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Até

[8420PR]

I'm sure there have been cases on board MSC Grandiosa, as even with testing all passengers it is impossible to keep COVID-19 off the ship (due to the 4-10 days between becoming infected and being able to test positive).  

 

I am also sure that the number of cases onboard is significantly less than not cruising - due to the pre-boarding testing.   In Italy as a whole, roughly 1% of the population tested positive for COVID-19 in November 2020 - apply the same percentage to the ship at 50% capacity (average of 2k passengers) and that would mean 20 cases, which I am sure did not happen.

 

It would be good if MSC would publish the numbers, especially as they have been offering a second test on disembarkation to passengers from some countries I think it would be interesting data.  I can understand the PR implications though.

[hamrag]

12 hours ago, Hlitner said:

....There were over 160 cases (that we know about) on those limited European cruises....

 

 

Do you have a source confirming this?

[Até]

I am not sure of Hank's sources but I agree his number is generally correct.  The most inclusive data I've seen is from the guy who makes a living from this kind of stuff.

 

It has also been largely under-reported that there have been over 195 people infected during cruises in Europe, notwithstanding new health protocols invariably described by the cruise companies as “rigorous.”  There have been four outbreaks on river cruise lines in the past seventy-five days where over 90 people were infected. Ten crew members were infected on the MS Thurgau Chopin (formerly the MS Frederic Chopin) river cruise ship operated by Swiss company Thurgau Travel. Sixty of ninety-two passengers (two-thirds) who sailed on the river cruise ship MS Swiss Crystal were infected on a cruise on the Danube and Main within the last three weeks. In early September, eight guests and crew members on a CroisiEurope river cruise ship on the Douro River in Portugal tested positive for COVID-19. Three weeks ago, German newspapers reported that at least thirteen people were infected on another river cruise ship, MS Vista Serenity, on the Moselle River in Germany.  In some of these cases, the local newspapers reported that passengers left the ship without realizing that there had been an outbreak on board.

In addition, 74 people were infected on Hurtigruten cruise ships, including the MS Roald Amundsen (71) and MS Finnmarken (3 with 1 death). Costa Cruises and MSC Cruises also recently experienced outbreaks on their cruise ships. Eight people were infected on the Costa Diadema and eight people also tested positive on the MSC Grandiosa.

Silversea’s Silver Spirit also had one COVID-19 case in early September during a Red Sea cruise.

A Ponant cruise ship, the Jacques-Cartier, was involved in a COVID-19 outbreak where thirteen people were infected. The ship was initially delayed in leaving an Italian port.  On its website, the Compagnie du Ponant boasted of exceptional cruises in “an anti-Covid bubble” with “its state-of-the-art health protocols.” 

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/11/articles/disease/the-latest-on-the-seadream-1-covid-19-debacle-what-went-wrong/

[Hlitner]

48 minutes ago, hamrag said:

 

Do you have a source confirming this?

I do but it would be against board rules to post it.  But I will simply list a few of the vessels and numbers.  On a single river boat, the Swiss Crystal, from Oct 10-17 they had 60 confirmed cases of COVID among 92 passengers.  The river boat Vista Serenity had at least 13 cases.  As to Ocean cruises we can start with Hurtigruten's Roald Amundsen where 71 tested positive (this shut down the line).  MS Finmarken had 3 cases with 1 death!  Costa Diadema had 8 cases.  The Silver Spirit (Silverseas cruise lines) had 13.  Of course the MSC Grandiosa had at least 1 case.  And this is only part of the story since these cases were publicly reported.  There are very likely many other cases not reported because cruises were all short and others would have been home before they even knew they had COVID.  

 

As a result of these cases and the surge of COVID throughout Europe the attempts to rekindle cruises in Europe have mostly come to a halt.  You have to also consider these cruises only allowed passengers from a limited number of countries that had a relatively small number of COVID cases (at the time of the cruises) and all the lines followed strict protocols including testing.  Or course the problem with testing is that even the best tests will not show as positive for several days after exposure.  So the likely scenario is that folks are exposed on the way to the port, test negative, get on the boat or ship, and then start spreading the virus to others on the vessel.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

Just now, Hlitner said:

I do but it would be against board rules to post it.  But I will simply list a few of the vessels and numbers.  On a single river boat, the Swiss Crystal, from Oct 10-17 they had 60 confirmed cases of COVID among 92 passengers.  The river boat Vista Serenity had at least 13 cases.  As to Ocean cruises we can start with Hurtigruten's Roald Amundsen where 71 tested positive (this shut down the line).  MS Finmarken had 3 cases with 1 death!  Costa Diadema had 8 cases.  The Silver Spirit (Silverseas cruise lines) had 13.  Of course the MSC Grandiosa had at least 1 case.  And this is only part of the story since these cases were publicly reported.  There are very likely many other cases not reported because cruises were all short and others would have been home before they even knew they had COVID.  

 

As a result of these cases and the surge of COVID throughout Europe the attempts to rekindle cruises in Europe have mostly come to a halt.  You have to also consider these cruises only allowed passengers from a limited number of countries that had a relatively small number of COVID cases (at the time of the cruises) and all the lines followed strict protocols including testing.  Or course the problem with testing is that even the best tests will not show as positive for several days after exposure.  So the likely scenario is that folks are exposed on the way to the port, test negative, get on the boat or ship, and then start spreading the virus to others on the vessel.

 

What is bothersome to me are that those (including the person who questioned my other post) seem to blind themselves to the truth (which has been widely reported in Europe) even when it stares them in the face.  You can still find plenty of folks in the USA who insist that there is no COVID and it is all a conspiracy of some sort.  And then there are those who think that COVID is not a big deal because the fatality rate is less then 1% (but still 10 times worse then the flu).  Those folks ignore the morbidity problems (including permanent damage to lungs, kidneys, heart and other key organs).  In fact the morbidity problem is still a developing story as there is no way to know about other longer term morbidities that may not have even developed.   Lets make no mistake about it.....COVID is a serious virus that is not going away!  

 

Just now, Hlitner said:

 

Hank