Covid-19 Vaccinations To Be Required?

[Hlitner]

While we all want to be rid of COVID (and many other diseases) the concept of Herd Immunity is now being simply used as a crutch to let certain officials dish out optimism.  While herd immunity is a wonderful concept in public health, in reality it is a bridge too far.   I think one of the better balanced articles I have seen was in the NY Times which is linked here:

Covid-19: How Much Herd Immunity is Enough? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I think saying COVID will be defeated by herd immunity is like saying COVID can be prevented by masks (often worn below noses, using materials that cannot even stop dust, etc).  It sounds good, gives the public lots of hope, and presents a wonderful end point.  Let us all pray that the vaccines stop COVID in its' tracks.  But when Dr Fauci (who a previous poster loves to cite) talks about 90% vaccine usage it is so far from reality as to be ridiculous.   

 

I am a strong believer in folks like Dr. Fauci and probably follow mitigation measures even more then most folks.  When I am out among the masses (who I try to keep at a distance I always wear a N95 mask and wear it correctly (creating a good seal between mask and face).  I know that the mask helps improve the odds (to avoid COVID) in my favor but it is far from a panacea since COVID could easily enter my nasal passages through my eyes (something folks like Dr. Fauci do not mention since there is no easy solution for the general public).   But make no mistake that public officials do more out of political expediency then science.  As a simple example, here in Puerto Vallarta we are in a lockdown where the Governor has dictated that beaches be closed at 3pm.  What does this mean?   At 3pm restaurants and beach clubs move their chairs off the beach.  Folks are told to leave and they simply crowd inside those same restaurants/bars because they are no longer permitted on the beach where it is easy to social distance.   A few hours later instead of enjoying dinner on a beach (many restaurants normally put tables/chairs on the beach) these same folks go to the insides of those same restaurants where they do not have nearly as much social distancing or air flow as they would have on the beach.  But, the Governor has ordered the beaches closed!  Go figure.

 

In New York their Governor has admitted that over 80% of COVID spread is happening at home among mostly family members.  And yet that same Governor has ordered most other options (that would get folks out of their homes) to be closed.  At one point he even ordered large public parks closed....again driving folks out of the fresh air (generally considered safe) inside (generally considered not safe).   That same Governor (who has written a book claiming he properly managed COVID) ordered many nursing home patients (more then 6000) some still infected with COVID back into nursing homes which allowed them to infect many other high risk folks.  How many folks were killed by this policy?  The State has done their best to conceal the real numbers but we are talking over 10,000 souls with the real truth perhaps never seeing the light of day.

 

Perhaps many folks can agree that our politicians and public health officials have really screwed up the handling of COVID.  Now, just like politicians all over the world from China to New York always do, they are spinning facts to cover up their failure and even try to take credit for doing something good.  You have to love Governor Cuomo coming out with a book praising his own handling of COVID while that virus still rages in his State.  

 

Now we want to rely on some of these same folks to tell us when it is safe to cruise and how we should deal with COVID on ships?  Color me skeptical.  

 

Hank

 

 

[deadzone1003]

Question:  I am aware that cruise ships sailing away from the USA have to comply with CDC guidelines.  Do the ships still have to follow CDC guidelines once they are on the high seas, especially if they are on a r/t?  What happens if it is a one-way?

[njhorseman]

35 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

Question:  I am aware that cruise ships sailing away from the USA have to comply with CDC guidelines.  Do the ships still have to follow CDC guidelines once they are on the high seas, especially if they are on a r/t?  What happens if it is a one-way?

If the ship is returning to the US then CDC rules will have to be followed, plus the rules of any port countries the ship will be visiting. If not returning to the US then the rules of its destination(s) will have to be followed. 

[deadzone1003]

3 hours ago, njhorseman said:

If the ship is returning to the US then CDC rules will have to be followed, plus the rules of any port countries the ship will be visiting. If not returning to the US then the rules of its destination(s) will have to be followed. 

Thanks for your reply.  So, as I understand it, if I am on a cruise from Miami to Bridgetown, Barbados, when the ship is in the high seas, we have to follow the rules of Barbados?.  When we are in port, the ship has to follow the rules of that particular port/country.  Or is it if our first stop is the Cayman Islands, we have to follow the rules of the Cayman Islands from when we depart the territorial waters of the USA until we leave the territorial waters of the Cayman Islands, then we follow the rules of our next destination?

[njhorseman]

7 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

Thanks for your reply.  So, as I understand it, if I am on a cruise from Miami to Bridgetown, Barbados, when the ship is in the high seas, we have to follow the rules of Barbados?.  When we are in port, the ship has to follow the rules of that particular port/country.  Or is it if our first stop is the Cayman Islands, we have to follow the rules of the Cayman Islands from when we depart the territorial waters of the USA until we leave the territorial waters of the Cayman Islands, then we follow the rules of our next destination?

I think your alternatives are too simplistic. Multiple countries' regulations may have to be observed simultaneously depending on timing. If a downstream destination "B" requires that rule "Y" be observed for 7 days prior to arrival, but the ship will be making port in destination "A" three days before arriving in destination "B" and destination "A" requires rule "X" be observed for two days prior to arrival, then the cruise ship will have to accommodate both countries' rules during the time they overlap. 

 

It may get tricky.

[Roccaforte]

Here in Naples, Fl.  you would never guess there is a pandemic.  Restaurants are full and people are using masks only to enter and exit and not always then.  Lots of visitors - grandchildren everywhere.  DH and I have appointments for the vaccine Monday with the follow-up automatically scheduled.  We’re sticking close to home until the second shot takes effect.  We’ve all isolated this long why not wait another month.  Getting the appointment was a challenge but things seem to be loosening up.  Lots of our friends have also scored appointments this week.

[Daniel A]

45 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

Thanks for your reply.  So, as I understand it, if I am on a cruise from Miami to Bridgetown, Barbados, when the ship is in the high seas, we have to follow the rules of Barbados?.  When we are in port, the ship has to follow the rules of that particular port/country.  Or is it if our first stop is the Cayman Islands, we have to follow the rules of the Cayman Islands from when we depart the territorial waters of the USA until we leave the territorial waters of the Cayman Islands, then we follow the rules of our next destination?

The CDC Framework does not regulate the PAX, it regulates the Cruise Ship.  If the ship sails at all in U.S. waters at any time, the Ship must comply with the CDC Framework otherwise it won't get the Conditional Sailing Certificate.  That will be coming and going as well.

[GICNJC]

5 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

Question:  I am aware that cruise ships sailing away from the USA have to comply with CDC guidelines.  Do the ships still have to follow CDC guidelines once they are on the high seas, especially if they are on a r/t?  What happens if it is a one-way?

Any passenger ship (unaware of rules for non passenger ships) that visits a US port (even it is for part of one day of the year) must abide by CDC rules year round to be able to dock.

Other countries have their specific rules that must be adhered to.

 

Oceania Nautica has not landed in the US the past few years,  but all other Oceania ships have.

[ABoatNerd]

18 hours ago, Hlitner said:

While we all want to be rid of COVID (and many other diseases) the concept of Herd Immunity is now being simply used as a crutch to let certain officials dish out optimism.  While herd immunity is a wonderful concept in public health, in reality it is a bridge too far.   I think one of the better balanced articles I have seen was in the NY Times which is linked here:

Covid-19: How Much Herd Immunity is Enough? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I think saying COVID will be defeated by herd immunity is like saying COVID can be prevented by masks (often worn below noses, using materials that cannot even stop dust, etc).  It sounds good, gives the public lots of hope, and presents a wonderful end point.  Let us all pray that the vaccines stop COVID in its' tracks.  But when Dr Fauci (who a previous poster loves to cite) talks about 90% vaccine usage it is so far from reality as to be ridiculous.   

 

I am a strong believer in folks like Dr. Fauci and probably follow mitigation measures even more then most folks.  When I am out among the masses (who I try to keep at a distance I always wear a N95 mask and wear it correctly (creating a good seal between mask and face).  I know that the mask helps improve the odds (to avoid COVID) in my favor but it is far from a panacea since COVID could easily enter my nasal passages through my eyes (something folks like Dr. Fauci do not mention since there is no easy solution for the general public).   But make no mistake that public officials do more out of political expediency then science.  As a simple example, here in Puerto Vallarta we are in a lockdown where the Governor has dictated that beaches be closed at 3pm.  What does this mean?   At 3pm restaurants and beach clubs move their chairs off the beach.  Folks are told to leave and they simply crowd inside those same restaurants/bars because they are no longer permitted on the beach where it is easy to social distance.   A few hours later instead of enjoying dinner on a beach (many restaurants normally put tables/chairs on the beach) these same folks go to the insides of those same restaurants where they do not have nearly as much social distancing or air flow as they would have on the beach.  But, the Governor has ordered the beaches closed!  Go figure.

 

In New York their Governor has admitted that over 80% of COVID spread is happening at home among mostly family members.  And yet that same Governor has ordered most other options (that would get folks out of their homes) to be closed.  At one point he even ordered large public parks closed....again driving folks out of the fresh air (generally considered safe) inside (generally considered not safe).   That same Governor (who has written a book claiming he properly managed COVID) ordered many nursing home patients (more then 6000) some still infected with COVID back into nursing homes which allowed them to infect many other high risk folks.  How many folks were killed by this policy?  The State has done their best to conceal the real numbers but we are talking over 10,000 souls with the real truth perhaps never seeing the light of day.

 

Perhaps many folks can agree that our politicians and public health officials have really screwed up the handling of COVID.  Now, just like politicians all over the world from China to New York always do, they are spinning facts to cover up their failure and even try to take credit for doing something good.  You have to love Governor Cuomo coming out with a book praising his own handling of COVID while that virus still rages in his State.  

 

Now we want to rely on some of these same folks to tell us when it is safe to cruise and how we should deal with COVID on ships?  Color me skeptical.  

 

Hank

 

 

Hank, as always, thank you for your critical thinking, your knowledge of vaccines and thanks for the link to the herd immunity item.

 

Given the slow inventory of vaccine supply everywhere (basically none in Canada due to a failed federal level "deal" with China (yes China) for the majority of vaccines for Canada), I do not anticipate cruising to start for quite a while. On many cruises, Canadians can be up to 1/3 or more of the passengers. With the national debacle of vaccine supply in Canada, best of luck having Canadians vaccinated any time soon. 

 

I would keep the northern border closed for quite a while until Canada gets its act together. 

 

[pinotlover]

1 minute ago, Daniel A said:

The CDC Framework does not regulate the PAX, it regulates the Cruise Ship.  If the ship sails at all in U.S. waters at any time, the Ship must comply with the CDC Framework otherwise it won't get the Conditional Sailing Certificate.  That will be coming and going as well.

The CDC guidelines are so onerous, most lines will bypass the US for the foreseeable future.

 

My brother lives in Titusville, FL where Carnival runs a lot of 3-4 day cruises to nowhere or the Bahamas from. They are waiting to see if even those cruises return this year.

 

If the rules aren’t changed, I fully expect the Marina to by pass Miami next winter on its way to SA. The TA from Europe disembarkment will be moved to a Carribe port and they sail on from there. Don’t be surprised if the Regatta resumes it’s scheduled sailing outside the US.

 

Will the Sirena resume sailing with the 2022 ATW which becomes Cancun to Cancun with no stopping in the US? Or some comparable port?

 

The cruise lines have no intention of reverts to 7 day or less cruises. If they do so to appease the CDC, it weakens them internationally.

 

As the CEO of Carnival said: the US market may be the last to reopen.

 

My current expectation is that the US cruise industry will not reopen due to the recommendations of Fauci and the CDC, but by the political pressure of States that they are wreaking economic havoc. 

[deadzone1003]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

I think your alternatives are too simplistic. Multiple countries' regulations may have to be observed simultaneously depending on timing. If a downstream destination "B" requires that rule "Y" be observed for 7 days prior to arrival, but the ship will be making port in destination "A" three days before arriving in destination "B" and destination "A" requires rule "X" be observed for two days prior to arrival, then the cruise ship will have to accommodate both countries' rules during the time they overlap. 

 

It may get tricky.

This is the scenario I am trying to clarify:  When you are on the high seas, you become sick, the CDC has rules that ban using this medication for this sickness, but your destination allows it, which takes precedent?  does it depend on where you are?  When we resume cruising, I wonder if we will come across a situation where we will be offered a medication which is banned in the USA for your ailment.  Worst, you have to take it else you will be thrown off the ship.  The latter situation I hope will never happen, but the former is likely to occur though infrequently

[Daniel A]

7 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

This is the scenario I am trying to clarify:  When you are on the high seas, you become sick, the CDC has rules that ban using this medication for this sickness, but your destination allows it, which takes precedent?  does it depend on where you are?  When we resume cruising, I wonder if we will come across a situation where we will be offered a medication which is banned in the USA for your ailment.  Worst, you have to take it else you will be thrown off the ship.  The latter situation I hope will never happen, but the former is likely to occur though infrequently

You may be overthinking this issue.  I didn't see anything in the CDC framework that controls what meds can be used onboard.  It may be there in a clause that permits them to throw out additional conditions, but it isn't articulated now.

[njhorseman]

20 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

This is the scenario I am trying to clarify:  When you are on the high seas, you become sick, the CDC has rules that ban using this medication for this sickness, but your destination allows it, which takes precedent?  does it depend on where you are?  When we resume cruising, I wonder if we will come across a situation where we will be offered a medication which is banned in the USA for your ailment.  Worst, you have to take it else you will be thrown off the ship.  The latter situation I hope will never happen, but the former is likely to occur though infrequently

Just for the sake of accuracy it's the FDA, not the CDC that approves medications in the US.

Further I don't believe there's any such thing as banning use of a medication for a particular illness . If a medication is approved for any particular use in the US, then a physician is also permitted to prescribe it "off label"...meaning for an unapproved use. Doing so opens the possibility of the physician being held accountable from a civil malpractice or even a licensing perspective if the medication causes harm to the patient, but use of the med is not illegal per  se .  That's why physicians can continue to legally prescribe anti-malaria medications for COVID-19 even though the FDA withdrew the EUA it had granted for those meds earlier in the pandemic.  Also when the ship is not in US waters, US medication rules wouldn't be applicable regardless.

Edited January 24, 2021 by njhorseman

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, GICNJC said:

Any passenger ship (unaware of rules for non passenger ships) that visits a US port (even it is for part of one day of the year) must abide by CDC rules year round to be able to dock.

That's not true. Under the Conditional Sail Order a ship that has not been in US waters but wishes to enter US waters must start the compliance process by submitting an EDC (Enhanced Data Collection) form to the CDC a minimum of 28 days prior to arriving in US waters. (Source: Page 21 of the Conditional Sail Order)

 

From that point (first submission of the EDC) on they have to comply with the CDC regulations.  There is nothing in the order that states a ship has to comply with CDC regulations year round. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by njhorseman

[YoHoHo]

2 hours ago, ABoatNerd said:

Given the slow inventory of vaccine supply everywhere (basically none in Canada due to a failed federal level "deal" with China (yes China) for the majority of vaccines for Canada), I do not anticipate cruising to start for quite a while. On many cruises, Canadians can be up to 1/3 or more of the passengers. With the national debacle of vaccine supply in Canada, best of luck having Canadians vaccinated any time soon. 

 

I would keep the northern border closed for quite a while until Canada gets its act together. 

 

Where did you get that Canada is using vaccine from China? Source please.

 

Canada DOES have contracts to supply vaccine from MANY sources and China might well be one of them. Canada contracted for many times expected to be needed, allowing for some production failures, or reported changes of efficacy as it is rolled out, etc. and then release / redeploy what they do not use. No one foresaw a production gap so early on. 

 

But currently we are only administering two that I know of. If you know of any reputable source that we are administering a vaccine sourced from China I appreciate you sharing it.

. 

And as for the shortage search news sources to the broader world and you'll see that BioNtech/Pfizer production stoppage in Europe is affecting more than Canada. Italy says it will sue Pfizer over delays in vaccine delivery, Germany will be out any day, etc. 

From Science Unscripted. It is a podcast w/o pictures so might try some's patience.
'German vaccine' shortage — are Germans OK with that?
Of all the places in the world for there to a shortage of the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine, it seems odd for it to be happening in the country of its creation. And, though the selfless, European motivations that led to this conundrum are admirable, are those motivations actually shared by Germans? (spoiler alert: yes they are)

The BioNtech facilities are right there and they could have mopped it all up until all of Germany was vaccinated then released it but they did not do that. (hurray or Canada would have none so far). They did not do a "Germany First" but adopted an EU posture and are sharing.

 

In any event, until we are all vaccinated the world economy will not return, and travel will not return unless you want to repeat a loop from FLL like Groundhog Day. We are in this together.

[ABoatNerd]

10 hours ago, YoHoHo said:

Where did you get that Canada is using vaccine from China? Source please.

 

Canada DOES have contracts to supply vaccine from MANY sources and China might well be one of them. Canada contracted for many times expected to be needed, allowing for some production failures, or reported changes of efficacy as it is rolled out, etc. and then release / redeploy what they do not use. No one foresaw a production gap so early on. 

 

But currently we are only administering two that I know of. If you know of any reputable source that we are administering a vaccine sourced from China I appreciate you sharing it.

. 

And as for the shortage search news sources to the broader world and you'll see that BioNtech/Pfizer production stoppage in Europe is affecting more than Canada. Italy says it will sue Pfizer over delays in vaccine delivery, Germany will be out any day, etc. 

From Science Unscripted. It is a podcast w/o pictures so might try some's patience.
'German vaccine' shortage — are Germans OK with that?
Of all the places in the world for there to a shortage of the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine, it seems odd for it to be happening in the country of its creation. And, though the selfless, European motivations that led to this conundrum are admirable, are those motivations actually shared by Germans? (spoiler alert: yes they are)

The BioNtech facilities are right there and they could have mopped it all up until all of Germany was vaccinated then released it but they did not do that. (hurray or Canada would have none so far). They did not do a "Germany First" but adopted an EU posture and are sharing.

 

In any event, until we are all vaccinated the world economy will not return, and travel will not return unless you want to repeat a loop from FLL like Groundhog Day. We are in this together.

Greetings YoHoHo:

You misunderstood my post. I said that Canada had contracted the majority of our vaccine from CanSino in China. The deal fell through due to their ineptitude and the fact the Chinese government refused to release samples to be sent to Canada for testing.

 

Hence Canada had to scramble to get "some" vaccine from reputable companies. It is a well known fact that the Canadian feds are hostile to big pharma but they do like China. Since Canada has no vaccine manufacturing facilities, this country is totally reliant on other countries.

 

Below is information related to Canada's epic failure of vaccine procurement.

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/pm-put-all-vaccine-eggs-in-one-china-basket-didn-t-consider-other-options-o-toole-1.24247415

 

That is why sitting in Ottawa with + 1 million people there has been no vaccine for weeks and no one knows when the next doses arrive, the public health booking line is down.

 

 

[hamrag]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:15 PM, clo said:

Why don't we all listen to Dr. Fauci. With 45 years experience he might be a tad better qualified to make those pronouncements.

Presumably you mean all in the USA? Other first world countries have their own experts, honestly they do!

[clo]

56 minutes ago, hamrag said:

Presumably you mean all in the USA? Other first world countries have their own experts, honestly they do!

Definitely! Although with 45 years experience he's a good guy to pay attention to also

[YoHoHo]

12 hours ago, ABoatNerd said:

Greetings YoHoHo:

You misunderstood my post. I said that Canada had contracted the majority of our vaccine from CanSino in China. The deal fell through due to their ineptitude and the fact the Chinese government refused to release samples to be sent to Canada for testing.

 

Hence Canada had to scramble to get "some" vaccine from reputable companies. It is a well known fact that the Canadian feds are hostile to big pharma but they do like China. Since Canada has no vaccine manufacturing facilities, this country is totally reliant on other countries.

 

Below is information related to Canada's epic failure of vaccine procurement.

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/pm-put-all-vaccine-eggs-in-one-china-basket-didn-t-consider-other-options-o-toole-1.24247415

 

That is why sitting in Ottawa with + 1 million people there has been no vaccine for weeks and no one knows when the next doses arrive, the public health booking line is down.

 

 

Yes, I did misunderstand that so thanks for expanding / clarifying. I see Canada is now working on building vaccine manufacturing facilities. Closing the barn door after the fact but at least learn from ones mistakes. OTH back in the Spring I read an article discussing while it was great that so many are working on many approaches to produce a vaccine there are limited manufacturing facilities world-wide and explained reasons such as low profit [to produce, patent holders control the money) and high risk with rapid fire litigation at the ready. Hopefully it will be ready for the next round.

[ABoatNerd]

Greetings YoHoHo. Canada's so called vaccine manufacturing facility is dead in the water due to various reasons.  

A key failure of all federal governments in Canada since 2003, is the failure of Canada to have learned anything from the SARS outbreak, which was the worst in Toronto of anywhere in the world. Canada is not prepared for this virus despite having suffered the most from SARS.

 

I lived in Toronto during SARS and it was H_ll - not dissimilar to the lockdowns of today but we had to go to work because there was no technology to work at home.

So this is my second pandemic with the same responses repeated again.

 

An interesting factoid about this virus - is the link of China to the Canadian virus lab in Winnipeg, in July 2019 a group of Chinese scientists and their staff were removed by the RCMP from the building - they have not been seen since. These Chinese scientists had been sending samples of SARS, MERS etc to where - the lab in Wuhan China. Most interesting is it not?

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/virologists-escorted-out-of-lab-in-canada-66164

 

Critical thought and analysis are vital, thanks for your post YoHoHo!

[pinotlover]

If I didn’t have such a lowly opinion of our federal government, regardless of which party is in power, I’d say that the US would learn something from this fiasco and do everything necessary to recreate actual pharmaceutical production here in the States. Sadly, however, there will be significant palms greased here and palms greased there so that absolutely nothing changes.

 

Amazing that our leaders have  believed that we don’t need steel or aluminum production capacity, electronics production capacity, nor pharmaceuticals production. Nope, if it can be made cheaper over there, we don’t need to do it here. We can depend upon ( fill in the blanks) to provide whatever we need. A huge JV with our neighbor to the north on this would be great. But sadly the greased palms would kill that.

[Daniel A]

CC article states 81 % out of 3000 survey respondents said they want vaccines to be a requirement to cruise.  85% said they want the crew to be vaccinated as well.  FDR and NCLH Board, are you listening to us??

 

Cruise Critic Readers Speak Out: Vaccine Requirements Preferred; Cruises Safer Than Other Travel

 

 

[shank63]

Since I have my vaccination completed and my wife has hers scheduled, I am in absolutely in favor of required vaccinations for crew and passengers.  The reality is that by the time cruise ships are sailing, most people that want vaccination will have it and the issue will be insignificant.  Looks like 2022 or later.

[Tranquility Base]

31 minutes ago, shank63 said:

The reality is that by the time cruise ships are sailing, most people that want vaccination will have it and the issue will be insignificant.

Until we start all over again next year for the new boosters which will possibly be required for recurring variant strains.

Meanwhile, billions of people will still be trying to get their first one.

[Queen of DaNile]

Crystal will be requiring proof of vaccination:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24410-crystal-cruises-to-require-covid-19-vaccine-for-guests.html

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Queen of DaNile