What do you think of Xs European cruises this summer, are others out yet.

[dolittle]

Got an E-mail from X on cruises for Europe this summer . looked pretty good seemed like a lot were from Amsterdam (which is fine with me) the prices were high I think they will go down . Have any other lines made any plans for Europe I know H.A.L. has not .We are hoping to do a ''Grand Voyage ''with them I hope they will still offer these.Are any of you looking at Europe for this summer .

[cruisemom42]

HAL just released a number of their European itineraries for 2022 -- check their website. According to what I've read on the HAL board the prices range from reasonably higher to quite a bit higher.

 

Remember that since the start of COVID, HAL has sold four ships, so I assume there is less capacity somewhere in their itineraries. Not sure how it impacts their plans for Europe in 2022 though...

 

[SelectSys]

2 hours ago, dolittle said:

Are any of you looking at Europe for this summer .

 

Not me.  I am targeting Spring 2022 for a more general return to cruising.  Maybe if things get really lucky I might try and book something in the Fall of 2021, but this just depends.  I doubt Europe would be in the cards as I prefer warmer weather and longer days.

 

Good luck!

 

 

[wowzz]

Anyone looking at cruises, or indeed any type of holiday, in Europe this summer, needs to take a reality check. 

Mass vaccinations will still be taking place, there will be restrictions on travel etc. 

If you want to take a punt on Q4, go for it, but as a Brit, I'm not even looking at booking a holiday in the UK for 2021.

[hallasm]

I do agere with @wowzz

I think cruises in Europe, especially in the EU, will be very difficult for us in 2021. With the current number of approved vaccines and the number of doses available, only a limited part of the population in EU  will have been vaccinated this summer.  At the same time, we are beginning to see various more infectious mutations and perhaps more aggressive mutations will also occur.
There may be some cruises operating within the borders of individual countries such as the UK, but I expect most countries will keep their border closed to cruise ships from other countries.  It will in all probability be cruises under difficult conditions.
Personally, I will not book a cruise in Europe until I know the possibilities of traveling including requirement for a ‘vaccine passport’.
Hopefully the situation regarding approved as well as the number of available doses of vaccine will improve during the spring, but whether it will be enough to get a significant part of the population in the EU vaccinated I doubt.

[Hlitner]

My own hunch is that we will see very little cruising in Europe during the summer of 2021.  It is unlikely that COVID will be sufficiently under control to the extent that Europe will reopen to most cruises (or cruisers).  The priority for Europe's tourist industry is open up to land based tourism which fills their hotels and restaurants.  While cruise ships do benefit the major embarkation ports (i.e. Barcelona, Civitavecchia, etc) they are not nearly as important to the continent as land-based tourism.  I would expect Europe to open up, by the summer of 2021, to tourists who meet specific requirements such as being able to prove they are vaccinated against COVID.   I also expect river cruises to open up before sea cruises by using similar rules (such as mandatory vaccinations) as basic land tours.  

 

Europe did try to rush back into cruising by allowing some voyages and the results were anything but good.  Over 165 COVID cases were tied directly to the European cruise restarts and those cases likely led to many more cases (which developed post cruise) which has generally been underreported or not reported at all.  We continue to believe that the future of cruising, anywhere, is going to be tied to mandatory vaccinations.

 

Hank

[iancal]

Agree. 

 

The second part is that even if cruises do open up in the fall what will the on board environment be AND how many ports will be open.

 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

Europe did try to rush back into cruising by allowing some voyages and the results were anything but good.  Over 165 COVID cases were tied directly to the European cruise restarts and those cases likely led to many more cases (which developed post cruise) which has generally been underreported or not reported at all.  We continue to believe that the future of cruising, anywhere, is going to be tied to mandatory vaccinations.

 

 

Yet it is not difficult to find posts on these boards who maintain that cruises outside of North America are happening successfully; Covid is not being spread.

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Yet it is not difficult to find posts on these boards who maintain that cruises outside of North America are happening successfully; Covid is not being spread.

I will be polite and say it is fake news (a real lie).  I understand that many cruise fans (including me) were rooting for the European start-ups to be very successful.  But that is not what happened and at least one European government seemed to be doing their best to help the cruise lines by covering up problems.   We know there were over 165 COVID cases on cruises but we still have no idea what that meant to the continent.  Consider when folks got off those cruises they simply went home (and may well have spread more COVID).

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I will be polite and say it is fake news (a real lie).  I understand that many cruise fans (including me) were rooting for the European start-ups to be very successful.  But that is not what happened and at least one European government seemed to be doing their best to help the cruise lines by covering up problems.   We know there were over 165 COVID cases on cruises but we still have no idea what that meant to the continent.  Consider when folks got off those cruises they simply went home (and may well have spread more COVID).

 

Hank

I think what it is is a wishful way of denying reality. We are seeing all too much of that happening in society today. 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I think what it is is a wishful way of denying reality. We are seeing all too much of that happening in society today. 

 

Yes, there seems to be a reduction in the ability to face hard facts. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes, there seems to be a reduction in the ability to face hard facts. 

Actually, there is a new definition of hard facts---fake news.

[Ashland]

I'm booked for the British Isles for July 30, 2021...have a NRD and hoping that X extends

their FCC policy through 2022...the current May 4th date isn't working out for us to sail by.

[ighten]

I suspect the only cruises this summer will be one nationality ones within each nations border/ with mask/ltd capacity etc still in place - and even those may be scenic only to start (and tbf I would be happy with that)... 

 

Autumn/winter may be different - some areas will be desperate for the market to return (Canaries etc)

 

Personally Im not sure why theres a fixation on a 100% vaccination being necessary before any cruising can restart- as long as the vulnerable are vaccinated in order and the health care and hospital pressure has returned to normal Im not sure why 100% would be required

 

@Ashland Im pretty sure youll see it extended as each month passes.. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by ighten

[SelectSys]

9 hours ago, ighten said:

Im not sure why theres a fixation on a 100% vaccination being necessary before any cruising can restart- as long as the vulnerable are vaccinated in order and the health care and hospital pressure has returned to normal Im not sure why 100% would be required

 

My own belief is that it is simply reduces the risk for the cruise lines in terms of logistical disruptions and liability - at least for the foreseeable future. 

 

Any large organization will want to have the defense that we took all prudent measures in response to a damage claim.  It also heIps the ports accept ships when they know that incoming passengers are unlikely to be sick.  

[ldubs]

On 1/10/2021 at 1:05 AM, ighten said:

I suspect the only cruises this summer will be one nationality ones within each nations border/ with mask/ltd capacity etc still in place - and even those may be scenic only to start (and tbf I would be happy with that)... 

 

Autumn/winter may be different - some areas will be desperate for the market to return (Canaries etc)

 

Personally Im not sure why theres a fixation on a 100% vaccination being necessary before any cruising can restart- as long as the vulnerable are vaccinated in order and the health care and hospital pressure has returned to normal Im not sure why 100% would be required

 

@Ashland Im pretty sure youll see it extended as each month passes.. 

 

Why 100% vaccination is necessary?   My two cents -- If  those who are not vaccinated develop symptoms then test positive the whole ship is quarantined and/or not allowed port access for tourism.  Then, vaccinated to not, everyone gets to spend too much time locked up in their cabins.   

 

I think you are probably right about the extensions as each month passes.  

[ldubs]

On 1/9/2021 at 7:07 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

Yes, there seems to be a reduction in the ability to face hard facts. 

It does seem there is an over abundance of wishful thinking.  I think most here are realistic about the need to manage the pandemic before cruises are happening again.  

 

I will be happy when life can move back to some kind of normal.  Sooner the better but I just can't see it happening with cruising this year.  I hope I'm wrong.   

[ighten]

46 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Why 100% vaccination is necessary?   My two cents -- If  those who are not vaccinated develop symptoms then test positive the whole ship is quarantined and/or not allowed port access for tourism.  Then, vaccinated to not, everyone gets to spend too much time locked up in their cabins.   

 

I think you are probably right about the extensions as each month passes.  

Whilst I see those points I perhaps should have been clearer I was speaking re the EU market  - I agree with the current CDC rules I cant see how the US market can open.

 

So re the whole ship being quarantined - your example  covers CDC (US) cruises -- the EU rules differ and the carrier only is locked up until the next port where they and there family/bubble are disembarked and the cruise continues (as we have seen already on MSC and Costa,Mein and Aida)  - FOC is likely to follow the EU rules (despite Brexit the work was begun last summer)

 

I also wonder how do you confirm everyone onboard is vaccinated  other than the usual tick box on a form which for some reason cruise companies believed was an answer to  Noro issues (clearly not).. Despite vacinations now being in progress no country has actually come up with a vaccination passport - marker - certificate  or agreed on this at an international level (a fundamental error I agree - though an admin nightmare that can probably wait - especially if its required later)

 

I agree it could be a condition of booking that your vaccinated but regarding proving this - no such thing has to be done for far deadly diseases when you travel - if your stupid enough to travel un vaccinated and lie about it even on a booking form or tick box on the form at the port then its nobody elses fault that your hospitalized at the next port of call and flown home from the congo rainforest with malaria or worse (this I know from experience - we were among the 99.9% who were not stupid) .

 

This however is why it is vastly important that the vaccinations have taken the load completely off health systems in countries where sailings are going to take place.. Here some guess work and fingers crossed needs to take place -  in the UK I suspect this will take until at least the Summer combined with a turn in good weather for the NHS to return to a state of normality - or if things go as well as the govt roll out thinks perhaps a few weeks earlier. I suspect the Eu will  catch up quickly at various levels country to county..

 

 I cant really even hazard a guess for the US/CAnada as we get a very confused picture and this is why its also a very different picture re start up to cruising etc.

 

One issue with the Northern EU is the winter of 21 could actually see a return to measures being enforced - especially if the vaccine is still rampant even asymptomatically among the younger generations  who have not been vaccinated yet - there will still be a % of older people who (for reasons of there own have not been vaccinated and who once again could add to the already normal strain the health services see in the winter)

 

So to conclude I think we could see a season of late spring/summer cruising in the EU and UK however it will be resident only - possibly or even probably scenic only or with bubble tours only - and one country port to port (UK only - UK to Nordic Scenics )(Italy only)(Spain only)(etc) 

 

Of course there is a lot that could change - number one being the vaccinations themselves - not only could the roll out be far less efficient than predicted it could also be far less effective. There's also the survivability of the industry itself and who exactly would want to operate at what could be possibly a loss for these first cruises.  For the EU It seems logical that Aida, Mein, Costa and MSC will start up again exactly as they operated in Oct/Nov ie one or two brands for each country. The UK is a different proposition as we have quite a few "brand names" around in Southampton that may dilute the interest to even remotely fill them..  Small brands such as Fred Olsen should be OK running  interesting scenics and loyal brands like Cunard and Saga would probably be able to reach there capacity (whatever % that should be). The biggest issue is how on earth though do you staff them in time and its this point alone that could logistically throw a spanner in the works...

 

So in a joking conclusion - If you desperately need a cruise then you Better get that river cruised booked before they sell out 😉.. If its going to be an ocean scenic or similar - my policy is to hold off and  forget about until around late March/April and look at the figures for how your countrys doing re covid and vaccines Keep a good eye on the real news and FCO news and judge it then.

 

 

 

 

 

[ldubs]

8 hours ago, ighten said:

Whilst I see those points I perhaps should have been clearer I was speaking re the EU market  - I agree with the current CDC rules I cant see how the US market can open.

 

So re the whole ship being quarantined - your example  covers CDC (US) cruises -- the EU rules differ and the carrier only is locked up until the next port where they and there family/bubble are disembarked and the cruise continues (as we have seen already on MSC and Costa,Mein and Aida)  - FOC is likely to follow the EU rules (despite Brexit the work was begun last summer)

 

I also wonder how do you confirm everyone onboard is vaccinated  other than the usual tick box on a form which for some reason cruise companies believed was an answer to  Noro issues (clearly not).. Despite vacinations now being in progress no country has actually come up with a vaccination passport - marker - certificate  or agreed on this at an international level (a fundamental error I agree - though an admin nightmare that can probably wait - especially if its required later)

 

I agree it could be a condition of booking that your vaccinated but regarding proving this - no such thing has to be done for far deadly diseases when you travel - if your stupid enough to travel un vaccinated and lie about it even on a booking form or tick box on the form at the port then its nobody elses fault that your hospitalized at the next port of call and flown home from the congo rainforest with malaria or worse (this I know from experience - we were among the 99.9% who were not stupid) .

 

This however is why it is vastly important that the vaccinations have taken the load completely off health systems in countries where sailings are going to take place.. Here some guess work and fingers crossed needs to take place -  in the UK I suspect this will take until at least the Summer combined with a turn in good weather for the NHS to return to a state of normality - or if things go as well as the govt roll out thinks perhaps a few weeks earlier. I suspect the Eu will  catch up quickly at various levels country to county..

 

 I cant really even hazard a guess for the US/CAnada as we get a very confused picture and this is why its also a very different picture re start up to cruising etc.

 

One issue with the Northern EU is the winter of 21 could actually see a return to measures being enforced - especially if the vaccine is still rampant even asymptomatically among the younger generations  who have not been vaccinated yet - there will still be a % of older people who (for reasons of there own have not been vaccinated and who once again could add to the already normal strain the health services see in the winter)

 

So to conclude I think we could see a season of late spring/summer cruising in the EU and UK however it will be resident only - possibly or even probably scenic only or with bubble tours only - and one country port to port (UK only - UK to Nordic Scenics )(Italy only)(Spain only)(etc) 

 

Of course there is a lot that could change - number one being the vaccinations themselves - not only could the roll out be far less efficient than predicted it could also be far less effective. There's also the survivability of the industry itself and who exactly would want to operate at what could be possibly a loss for these first cruises.  For the EU It seems logical that Aida, Mein, Costa and MSC will start up again exactly as they operated in Oct/Nov ie one or two brands for each country. The UK is a different proposition as we have quite a few "brand names" around in Southampton that may dilute the interest to even remotely fill them..  Small brands such as Fred Olsen should be OK running  interesting scenics and loyal brands like Cunard and Saga would probably be able to reach there capacity (whatever % that should be). The biggest issue is how on earth though do you staff them in time and its this point alone that could logistically throw a spanner in the works...

 

So in a joking conclusion - If you desperately need a cruise then you Better get that river cruised booked before they sell out 😉.. If its going to be an ocean scenic or similar - my policy is to hold off and  forget about until around late March/April and look at the figures for how your countrys doing re covid and vaccines Keep a good eye on the real news and FCO news and judge it then.

 

 

 

Thanks Ighten.  Very interesting & informative!  

[Hlitner]

The trend is pretty clear that International Travel will likely require a PCR test (within 72 hours of travel) and/or proof of COVID vaccination.  We were greeted this morning with news that the CDC will require PCR testing within 72 hours of an International Flight for anyone flying into the USA.  One would expect similar rules to imposed by any country that allows visitors.  

 

So here is the dilemma for those who plan on flying to a cruise port.  Assume you need to get tested (or have proof of vaccination) and that test comes back as positive.  You would get these test results witin 1-2 days prior to your trip and would then need to quarantine and cancel the trip.  In the case of an expensive fly/cruise trip (Ocean or River) who will pay the cost of that last minute cancellation?   Perhaps there will be some insurance policies that will cover this contingency.....but we will have to wait and see.

 

To put this in perspective we live in Mexico (Puerto Vallarta) during the winter where we are now happily enjoying our annual visit (restaurants, bars, and clubs are open).  It does seem that the CDC will require us to get a PCR test within 72 hours of our flight home.  That is actually not a problem here (there are multiple testing places) but the cost of that test ($125-$250) becomes another expense of travel.  

 

Hank

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

The trend is pretty clear that International Travel will likely require a PCR test (within 72 hours of travel) and/or proof of COVID vaccination.  We were greeted this morning with news that the CDC will require PCR testing within 72 hours of an International Flight for anyone flying into the USA.  One would expect similar rules to imposed by any country that allows visitors.  

 

So here is the dilemma for those who plan on flying to a cruise port.  Assume you need to get tested (or have proof of vaccination) and that test comes back as positive.  You would get these test results witin 1-2 days prior to your trip and would then need to quarantine and cancel the trip.  In the case of an expensive fly/cruise trip (Ocean or River) who will pay the cost of that last minute cancellation?   Perhaps there will be some insurance policies that will cover this contingency.....but we will have to wait and see.

 

To put this in perspective we live in Mexico (Puerto Vallarta) during the winter where we are now happily enjoying our annual visit (restaurants, bars, and clubs are open).  It does seem that the CDC will require us to get a PCR test within 72 hours of our flight home.  That is actually not a problem here (there are multiple testing places) but the cost of that test ($125-$250) becomes another expense of travel.  

 

Hank

We have insurance cover for that sort of situation.

[ldubs]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

The trend is pretty clear that International Travel will likely require a PCR test (within 72 hours of travel) and/or proof of COVID vaccination.  We were greeted this morning with news that the CDC will require PCR testing within 72 hours of an International Flight for anyone flying into the USA.  One would expect similar rules to imposed by any country that allows visitors.  

 

So here is the dilemma for those who plan on flying to a cruise port.  Assume you need to get tested (or have proof of vaccination) and that test comes back as positive.  You would get these test results witin 1-2 days prior to your trip and would then need to quarantine and cancel the trip.  In the case of an expensive fly/cruise trip (Ocean or River) who will pay the cost of that last minute cancellation?   Perhaps there will be some insurance policies that will cover this contingency.....but we will have to wait and see.

 

To put this in perspective we live in Mexico (Puerto Vallarta) during the winter where we are now happily enjoying our annual visit (restaurants, bars, and clubs are open).  It does seem that the CDC will require us to get a PCR test within 72 hours of our flight home.  That is actually not a problem here (there are multiple testing places) but the cost of that test ($125-$250) becomes another expense of travel.  

 

Hank

 

I'm kind of surprised that kind of test requirement for folks traveling into the USA wasn't in place before now.  

 

Anyway, reading your second paragraph, that will be a major issue.  I seem to recall one of the cruise lines was talking about offering a relatively low cost insurance policy for the test related last minute cancellations you mention.  I doubt the cruise line(s) actually intended to underwrite the coverage themselves.   This was about the time when cruise lines first started outlining their covid management steps.  So a few months ago at least.  At the time I thought that a pretty fair thing.   Of course, my memory could also be faulty.  

[Hlitner]

24 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm kind of surprised that kind of test requirement for folks traveling into the USA wasn't in place before now.  

 

Anyway, reading your second paragraph, that will be a major issue.  I seem to recall one of the cruise lines was talking about offering a relatively low cost insurance policy for the test related last minute cancellations you mention.  I doubt the cruise line(s) actually intended to underwrite the coverage themselves.   This was about the time when cruise lines first started outlining their covid management steps.  So a few months ago at least.  At the time I thought that a pretty fair thing.   Of course, my memory could also be faulty.  

I guess we can all speculate and later find out how we all erred.  When we flew down to Puerto Vallarta for the winter, DW asked me if I thought the US would allow us to return home in the Spring :).  We both laughed but I did say it was likely there would be some kind of testing requirement.   It does make sense and here in Mexico it is actually easier to get tests then at home.  

 

How the cruise lines deal with COVID, once they finally restart is another mystery.  Most of the cancellation "policies" that folks buy from the cruise lines (we do not purchase any insurance directly from cruise lines) is not even real insurance but rather a waiver program developed by the cruise lines.  Those waivers (sometimes called "cancel for any reason") are a profitable item for the cruise lines....but not true insurance.  I guess the cruise lines could come up with some kind of waiver program for COVID since most real insurance companies would not want to touch that issue.  

 

But we think the bigger issue is what happens when anyone on a cruise ship develops COVID.  The CDC touched on this in their Guidelines when they specified that cruise lines need to have agreements with ports and hospitals (including transfer agreements).  But we think the bigger issue is what happens to everyone else on a cruise.   Will they need to quarantine?  At whose expense?  Where?   For how long?  Will they have access to the public airlines?  A 100% mandatory vaccination policy does make it less likely that there would be any COVID cases on a cruise.  But even that is not a 100% guarantee.

 

Lots of questions which will likely need to be answered before the CDC grants their approval.

 

Hank

[ldubs]

21 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I guess we can all speculate and later find out how we all erred.  When we flew down to Puerto Vallarta for the winter, DW asked me if I thought the US would allow us to return home in the Spring :).  We both laughed but I did say it was likely there would be some kind of testing requirement.   It does make sense and here in Mexico it is actually easier to get tests then at home.  

 

How the cruise lines deal with COVID, once they finally restart is another mystery.  Most of the cancellation "policies" that folks buy from the cruise lines (we do not purchase any insurance directly from cruise lines) is not even real insurance but rather a waiver program developed by the cruise lines.  Those waivers (sometimes called "cancel for any reason") are a profitable item for the cruise lines....but not true insurance.  I guess the cruise lines could come up with some kind of waiver program for COVID since most real insurance companies would not want to touch that issue.  

 

But we think the bigger issue is what happens when anyone on a cruise ship develops COVID.  The CDC touched on this in their Guidelines when they specified that cruise lines need to have agreements with ports and hospitals (including transfer agreements).  But we think the bigger issue is what happens to everyone else on a cruise.   Will they need to quarantine?  At whose expense?  Where?   For how long?  Will they have access to the public airlines?  A 100% mandatory vaccination policy does make it less likely that there would be any COVID cases on a cruise.  But even that is not a 100% guarantee.

 

Lots of questions which will likely need to be answered before the CDC grants their approval.

 

Hank

 

I think you raise the key questions.   

[wowzz]

15 hours ago, wowzz said:

We have insurance cover for that sort of situation.

Sorry, but I refer to my previous answer. If European insurance companies have policies that cover CV19, why don't US policies?

If a cruise line requires that I have a test 3 days prior to travelling, and I test positive, and am unable to travel, then I claim on my insurance policy. If I had broken my leg 3 days prior to travelling I would have made a similar claim. No difference between the two.

If I unfortunately develop CV19 during the cruise,  and require hospitalisation,  again, the costs are covered by my insurance provider. 

If the ship has to alter its schedule,  and I need to find alternate flights home, who pays? Well, my insurance company does.

We recently had to return early from a land based holiday in Spain, due to our original return flights being cancelled by our airline, due to changes in CV19 restrictions. My insurance company paid out for the unused elements of our holiday (villa hire, car hire, airport parking) plus the difference in cost between the original return flights and the cost of the new return flights.

So, the simple answer to questions about costs related to CV19 related incidents, is to buy a good insurance policy. Our annual policy, including the US, is less than the equivalent of $700 per year, and we are not in the first flush of youth, so hardly expensive in the scale of things!