Saga Cruises now require a Vaccine to sail. Should Celebrity follow?

[shipshape sam]

No, but that will not stop them.  Surgeon General Jerome Adam recently stated that having the vaccine will not stop you from spreading the virus.  So..... what does that mean?  It means whether you have the vaccine or not, you should per (questionable standards/SCIENCE) still wear masks and practice social distancing.  It also means that they do NOT know if you can or cannot get the virus infection if you are vacinated, thus they advise to act as if you have not been vaccinated.

 

I do not trust anyone in power about how to protect myself as they keep changing the advise and not for new knowledge.  They are flip flopping mostly, IMHO to control us.  Longituntial studies of wearing mask have not shown a cause and effect to wearing a mask and the spread of viruses.  Yet the political class promotes wearing them (absent the science they claim to follow).  It makes them feel good and they are doing something. I personally believe that not being in close contact with people where there is not great ventilation is the primary mode of spread via air droplets.  I also believe there is some potential for fomite transmission, but  washing of hands and NOT touching eyes, nose, mouth without washing hands in warm soapy water is another opportunity for not spreading the virus or ANY virus including the flu virus.

 

Not sure I will sail if I am required to wear a mask, especially on an outside deck.  I can understand wanting to sail again and doing whatever the CDC, et al make as a requirement to get their approval.  Cruise lines want to get back to sailing and will do almost, it not, anything the CDC requires regardless of it efficacy.

 

I am also now reading of some potential long term negative effects of getting, especially for younger healty people,  in the getting the vaccine  and want to follow up on this information to see if it has any validity.

Edited January 25, 2021 by shipshape sam

[ABoatNerd]

Shipshape sam, thank you very much for your post. I agree.

 

Would you please post any findings on side effects, this is critical. I suspect there will be colusion to keep any serious side effects supressed from public knowlege.

 

I overheard a nurse entering my fathers retirement home today say to the building manager and other gathered staff that she has felt unwell weeks after getting the pzifer second shot with major headache and wheezing and she has tested negative. This is not good. She went to her doctor who contacted the health unit, who ignored her. She is going to the media.

[nosapphire]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:04 AM, cl.klink said:

 

Somehow or another, I think we will find that all the crew will be vaccinated before we board.  And, all the "we" will have to be vaccinated too.

 

That's my bet, anyway.

 

- Joel

The Saga requirement makes it clear that the crew and staff on board will only be vaccinated "when possible".

So on the initial cruises, seems only the paying passengers will be vaccinated - and only those who have received both doses, with the 2nd dose at least 14 days prior to sailing.

Which is why testing, masks, social distancing etc., will all still be in place.

[hcat]

On 1/23/2021 at 8:45 AM, TeeRick said:

States are all deciding who and when to vaccinate and in what order.  Including essential workers who are not health care workers.  The definition of essential workers will vary by state.  I could easily imagine FL prioritizing theme park workers and yes cruise line workers to get the vaccine.  They are essential to the FL economy.

So far, have not heard any announcements about theme park workers getting priority.  Fla  counties are struggling to stretch available doses to vaccinate those over  65 yrs,  nursing home & assisted living residents, health care workers, bus drivers ?  and some minority area residents at pop up events or at churches,

 

As to gen discussion...there are many folks who are not interested in the vaccine..even among health care workers which to me is surprising. So I guess they may be cruisers!

[hcat]

From post  # 51 by Shipshape Sam:

 

"Surgeon General Jerome Adam recently stated that having the vaccine will not stop you from spreading the virus.  So..... what does that mean?  It means whether you have the vaccine or not, you should per (questionable standards/SCIENCE) still wear masks and practice social distancing.  It also means that they do NOT know if you can or cannot get the virus infection if you are vacinated, thus they advise to act as if "

 

So why are we all going nuts to get the vaccine??? Are we the  ongoing test group?

[cruisemom42]

11 hours ago, shipshape sam said:

Surgeon General Jerome Adam recently stated that having the vaccine will not stop you from spreading the virus.

 

Source please?  I cannot believe the surgeon general would say something so reckless and incorrect, so I can only suggest it was bad reporting or that you misheard. 

 

The vaccines have NOT YET been proven to stop viral spread BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRIAL. 

 

It is possible and indeed likely that they DO stop spread of the virus, at least somewhat -- however a scientist cannot say that without having gathered the proof first. (Unlike politicians.)

 

[rimmit]

7 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Source please?  I cannot believe the surgeon general would say something so reckless and incorrect, so I can only suggest it was bad reporting or that you misheard. 

 

The vaccines have NOT YET been proven to stop viral spread BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRIAL. 

 

It is possible and indeed likely that they DO stop spread of the virus, at least somewhat -- however a scientist cannot say that without having gathered the proof first. (Unlike politicians.)

 

Yes. Exactly.
 

We need to stop the disinformation now.  No one has ever said that the vaccine DOES NOT stop you from spreading the virus.  We simply DO NOT KNOW.  We know the vaccine stops people 100 percent of the time based on the trials from getting severe disease and 95 percent of the time from mild disease.

 

The trials were not designed to figure out if it was slowing spread.  As more data comes out, the researchers will be able to stratify the data and make that conclusion.  
 

 

[ABoatNerd]

shipshape sam's post is spot on and vital to the discussion of cruising.

 

No one can confirm if the vaccines stop one from spreading the virus - this is the key point - that must be better communicated to the public.

Frankly people coming into my father's retirement home (workers and outside nurses) are saying they do not need to wear masks cause they have the first Pfizer shot. So that is the concern. I was checking out yesterday and was standing listening to 3 workers all discussing that they have the first shot so do not need a mask nor social distance.

 

This is a key failure in the public communication realm - people are not understanding the limitations of the vaccines.

 

I will not get on a cruise ship until every vaccine manufacturer produces evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that once vaccinated there is no spread.  Otherwise the cruise industry petri dish is likely to happen again and I sure as heck will not be on such a ship. I am not booking any cruise until this event is over.

 

 

[TeeRick]

4 minutes ago, ABoatNerd said:

shipshape sam's post is spot on and vital to the discussion of cruising.

 

No one can confirm if the vaccines stop one from spreading the virus - this is the key point - that must be better communicated to the public.

Frankly people coming into my father's retirement home (workers and outside nurses) are saying they do not need to wear masks cause they have the first Pfizer shot. So that is the concern. I was checking out yesterday and was standing listening to 3 workers all discussing that they have the first shot so do not need a mask nor social distance.

 

This is a key failure in the public communication realm - people are not understanding the limitations of the vaccines.

 

I will not get on a cruise ship until every vaccine manufacturer produces evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that once vaccinated there is no spread.  Otherwise the cruise industry petri dish is likely to happen again and I sure as heck will not be on such a ship. I am not booking any cruise until this event is over.

 

 

Oh I am very convinced that this communication to the public has definitely occurred.  It expressly happens starting from when you get your first shot of the vaccine.  It is not lack of communication.  It is a disregard of what has been communicated.  The lack of understanding is not from lack of communication.  I would be very hard-pressed to believe that the nurses that you mention do not understand the need to continue to mask or social distance.  

[wrk2cruise]

10 minutes ago, ABoatNerd said:

I will not get on a cruise ship until every vaccine manufacturer produces evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that once vaccinated there is no spread.

 

Then you may want to find other uses for your time then hanging out on a cruise forum as it will be years before there is no spread.   The goal of the vaccines is to reduce or eliminate illness.

[Fouremco]

10 hours ago, ABoatNerd said:

I overheard a nurse entering my fathers retirement home today say to the building manager and other gathered staff that she has felt unwell weeks after getting the pzifer second shot with major headache and wheezing and she has tested negative. This is not good. She went to her doctor who contacted the health unit, who ignored her. She is going to the media.

The very first COVID-19 vaccination was administered in Ottawa on Tuesday, Dec. 15. Even if the nurse in question was lucky enough to have received her dose that very day, she wouldn't have had her second dose for three weeks, in early January. Saying that she feels unwell "weeks" after her second shots makes it sound far longer than the actual period of less than three weeks. And that's assuming she was actually vaccinated on day one.

 

But the real problem I have with her recounting is the claim that her doctor was ignored by Ottawa Public Health when he contacted them regarding her case. From my observations ever since the onset of the pandemic, the health unit has been highly responsive, and I simply don't believe that it would ignore a doctor reporting a patient presenting these symptoms.

[ABoatNerd]

Thanks Fouremco. We are not close enough to the her file to know. Just stating what I heard at my dad's retirement residence yesterday. Something seems amiss.

 

There is no service on the health booking line, I tried to call to get my appointment for the first shot, no vaccines.

[ABoatNerd]

4 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Oh I am very convinced that this communication to the public has definitely occurred.  It expressly happens starting from when you get your first shot of the vaccine.  It is not lack of communication.  It is a disregard of what has been communicated.  The lack of understanding is not from lack of communication.  I would be very hard-pressed to believe that the nurses that you mention do not understand the need to continue to mask or social distance.  

Thanks TeeRick:

I have not seen the recommendations to continue with masks and social distancing much if ever in any communications in Ontario. If it happens it sure is not consistent.

Well they were nurses as they had badges on with their employer name. 

[TeeRick]

27 minutes ago, ABoatNerd said:

Thanks TeeRick:

I have not seen the recommendations to continue with masks and social distancing much if ever in any communications in Ontario. If it happens it sure is not consistent.

Well they were nurses as they had badges on with their employer name. 

Sorry- I really cannot speak to the communication program in Toronto, or Ontario province, or any other parts of Canada.  I know that in the US this seems to be pretty well communicated to those receiving their vaccine shots.  And it is constantly all over the news that you still need to mask and social distance after getting the vaccine here.  Perhaps some of our friends on these boards in Canada and Ontario will speak to the level of communications there to see if it matches your experiences.

[Fouremco]

25 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Sorry- I really cannot speak to the communication program in Toronto, or Ontario province, or any other parts of Canada.  I know that in the US this seems to be pretty well communicated to those receiving their vaccine shots.  And it is constantly all over the news that you still need to mask and social distance after getting the vaccine here.  Perhaps some of our friends on these boards in Canada and Ontario will speak to the level of communications there to see if it matches your experiences.

I've seen countless articles and broadcasts here in Ontario dealing with the issue of continued use of masks, distancing, etc., after being vaccinated. Here are just a couple of examples from last month from our two major networks:

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/this-is-why-you-will-still-need-to-wear-a-mask-after-being-vaccinated-1.5222206

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-general-vaccine-faq-1.5838140

 

For those paying attention, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, has been advising Canadians since last summer that physical distancing and wearing masks would continue well after vaccinations rolled out. Here's an article from August 4 last year: 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-vaccine-tam-1.5673729

 

Closer to home, but I'm sure repeated in cities across the country, the Ottawa Public Health website has a ton of information on COVID-19, including the following:

Public Health Measures 

Once a person is vaccinated with the series of two doses of the COVID-19 vaccine, can they stop following public health measures like wearing a mask, physical distancing and self-isolating when they become sick?

No. While experts learn more about the protection that COVID-19 vaccines provide under real-life conditions, it will be important for everyone to continue practicing public health measures to help stop the spread of COVID-19. That means covering your mouth and nose with a mask, washing hands often and never touching your eyes, nose or mouth with unwashed hands, staying at least 2 metres (6 feet) away from others and self-isolating when sick.  

Health care and other staff must still wear personal protective equipment (PPE) when working, even after they have been vaccinated. 

COVID-19 vaccination along with public health measures will offer the best protection from the spread of COVID-19. Experts need to understand more about the protection that COVID-19 vaccines provide before deciding to change the recommendations everyone should take to slow the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19. Other factors, including how many people get vaccinated and how the virus is spreading in communities, will also affect this decision. 

 

 

Good to excellent communication continues at all levels: municipal, provincial and federal. But as is always the case, you have to be an active participant to benefit from the availability of the information. We've been given this particular information since last summer, and there really is no excuse for not being aware of it if you have any interest all all in COVID-19.

[deadzone1003]

It seems many of the people in this forum and in the public have their view of vaccines probably formed by their prior experience with vaccines.  Almost every vaccine you had taken in the past probably is not 100% efficacy.  However, you will be entering a population that probably has herd immunity already because so many people had taken it during the past.  Almost everybody thinks it will protect them 100% because they rarely hear of anyone getting sick after taking the vaccine when in reality you got the vaccine and almost everyone else did too.  Well, the mRNA has an efficacy rate of about 95% which means you are just 95% less likely to get sick than the poor schmuck who got the placebo.  It doesn't mean you don't get sick, it means you are less likely to get sick.  When you do get sick, you have the possibility of transmitting your sickness.  Unfortunately, those who are being vaccinated will be entering a population that has not reach anywhere near herd immunity just as if you were a volunteer for the clinical trials.  On the positive side, as more are being vaccinated our population can start to approach herd immunity.  For those who just got the first dose of the mRNA and don't think you need a mask, even though the efficacy rate is 50% after the first dose, by not wearing a mask, you are reducing your efficacy rate to something well below 50% because the original efficacy rate was probably based on everyone wearing a mask in public situations.  Don't think you can't transmit the virus because you had the vaccine, all you did was reducing the odds of you transmitting the virus by getting the vaccine.

[phoenix_dream]

9 hours ago, hcat said:

From post  # 51 by Shipshape Sam:

 

"Surgeon General Jerome Adam recently stated that having the vaccine will not stop you from spreading the virus.  So..... what does that mean?  It means whether you have the vaccine or not, you should per (questionable standards/SCIENCE) still wear masks and practice social distancing.  It also means that they do NOT know if you can or cannot get the virus infection if you are vacinated, thus they advise to act as if "

 

So why are we all going nuts to get the vaccine??? Are we the  ongoing test group?

I find it hard to believe these are actual questions, but I'll assume so and I will answer them.  We are going nuts to get the vaccine because even if we do get the virus after getting the vaccine, we will not suffer any symptoms (approx. 95%) or suffer minor symptoms (approx. 5%).  Therefore, if we get the vaccine we will in all likelihood not die from this deadly virus.  For me that is reason enough!  It is very likely we will not be spreading it either, but since that was not part of the initial trials we will not know that until proper analysis is done, which will take time.  In the meantime, it makes complete and logical sense to continue practicing appropriate spread prevention measures.  

[hcat]

2 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

I find it hard to believe these are actual questions, but I'll assume so and I will answer them.  We are going nuts to get the vaccine because even if we do get the virus after getting the vaccine, we will not suffer any symptoms (approx. 95%) or suffer minor symptoms (approx. 5%).  Therefore, if we get the vaccine we will in all likelihood not die from this deadly virus.  For me that is reason enough!  It is very likely we will not be spreading it either, but since that was not part of the initial trials we will not know that until proper analysis is done, which will take time.  In the meantime, it makes complete and logical sense to continue practicing appropriate spread prevention measures.  

Thanks. ThIs is more encouraging than some other posts which did raise real questions for me.  We are in the older risk group and sometimes watch our grandchildren...Important to get max benefit from the vaccine.

 

Sometimes there is too much info out there,  and one must rely on faith where facts are not yet  established!

[yorky]

On 1/25/2021 at 6:12 AM, ABoatNerd said:

Shipshape sam, thank you very much for your post. I agree.

 

Would you please post any findings on side effects, this is critical. I suspect there will be colusion to keep any serious side effects supressed from public knowlege.

 

I overheard a nurse entering my fathers retirement home today say to the building manager and other gathered staff that she has felt unwell weeks after getting the pzifer second shot with major headache and wheezing and she has tested negative. This is not good. She went to her doctor who contacted the health unit, who ignored her. She is going to the media.

I’m really not a fan of this type of post, it’s exactly the type of thing that will discourage people from getting the vaccine. I’ve had the first dose as has  everyone else in our project and no one has had any problems,  I fully expect to feel exactly the same after the second dose. Any talk of long term problems is simply guesswork, how on earth would anyone know at this point.

[Miaminice]

22 hours ago, ABoatNerd said:

I will not get on a cruise ship until every vaccine manufacturer produces evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that once vaccinated there is no spread.  Otherwise the cruise industry petri dish is likely to happen again and I sure as heck will not be on such a ship. I am not booking any cruise until this event is over.

 

Well, I guess then you won´t be cruising for quite some time to come.

The current vaccines probably lower the risk of spreading. However they will not eliminate the risk of a spread. That´s not what they [current vaccines] are designed to do. 

 

So you´ll have to wait for 100% herd immunity or the invention of vaccines creating a sterilizing immunity.

The current goal, not only in regards of cruises, is to reduce the remaining risk to a manageable level.
The way there includes vaccines as well as the known prevention measures.

If you want more than that it is of course your own choice... but TBH then you should have never entered a cruise ship at any time. There´s always been a risk for potentially letal infections. Noro comes to mind...

[nosapphire]

5 hours ago, yorky said:

I’m really not a fan of this type of post, it’s exactly the type of thing that will discourage people from getting the vaccine. I’ve had the first dose as has  everyone else in our project and no one has had any problems,  I fully expect to feel exactly the same after the second dose. Any talk of long term problems is simply guesswork, how on earth would anyone know at this point.

ANY drug/vaccine MAY have side effects.

It is obligatory to warn patients of possible side effects.

Sometimes, thinking about the side effects makes you feel as if you have them - especially the vague ones, such as headaches, muscle aches etc.

For what it is worth - DH had his first jab (Pfizer) last week - as he did not have his glasses with him, I read the side effects sheet on his behalf.

Well, DH had no problems, not even a sore arm.

I felt as if I was having the side effects ... even though I have not yet had the jab.

I'm not going to read the sheet when I have my jab!🙄

 

[Miaminice]

19 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

ANY drug/vaccine MAY have side effects.

It is obligatory to warn patients of possible side effects.

Sometimes, thinking about the side effects makes you feel as if you have them - especially the vague ones, such as headaches, muscle aches etc.

For what it is worth - DH had his first jab (Pfizer) last week - as he did not have his glasses with him, I read the side effects sheet on his behalf.

Well, DH had no problems, not even a sore arm.

I felt as if I was having the side effects ... even though I have not yet had the jab.

I'm not going to read the sheet when I have my jab!🙄

 

 

👍

 

The long term effects of Covid, even in young patients and asymptomatic patients, are just emerging. I know people who used to be fitness nuts and were infected. One of them used to do ironman-like competions. He had Covid which according to him he experienced as nothing more than a bad cold - and yet he still has problems climbing a flight of stairs three months later.

 

So I am willing to take the risk with the vaccines instead of risking to suffer from Covid AND its long term effects.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Miaminice

[TeeRick]

17 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I've seen countless articles and broadcasts here in Ontario dealing with the issue of continued use of masks, distancing, etc., after being vaccinated. Here are just a couple of examples from last month from our two major networks:

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/this-is-why-you-will-still-need-to-wear-a-mask-after-being-vaccinated-1.5222206

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-general-vaccine-faq-1.5838140

 

For those paying attention, Canada's chief public health officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, has been advising Canadians since last summer that physical distancing and wearing masks would continue well after vaccinations rolled out. Here's an article from August 4 last year: 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-vaccine-tam-1.5673729

 

Closer to home, but I'm sure repeated in cities across the country, the Ottawa Public Health website has a ton of information on COVID-19, including the following:

Public Health Measures 

Once a person is vaccinated with the series of two doses of the COVID-19 vaccine, can they stop following public health measures like wearing a mask, physical distancing and self-isolating when they become sick?

No. While experts learn more about the protection that COVID-19 vaccines provide under real-life conditions, it will be important for everyone to continue practicing public health measures to help stop the spread of COVID-19. That means covering your mouth and nose with a mask, washing hands often and never touching your eyes, nose or mouth with unwashed hands, staying at least 2 metres (6 feet) away from others and self-isolating when sick.  

Health care and other staff must still wear personal protective equipment (PPE) when working, even after they have been vaccinated. 

COVID-19 vaccination along with public health measures will offer the best protection from the spread of COVID-19. Experts need to understand more about the protection that COVID-19 vaccines provide before deciding to change the recommendations everyone should take to slow the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19. Other factors, including how many people get vaccinated and how the virus is spreading in communities, will also affect this decision. 

 

 

Good to excellent communication continues at all levels: municipal, provincial and federal. But as is always the case, you have to be an active participant to benefit from the availability of the information. We've been given this particular information since last summer, and there really is no excuse for not being aware of it if you have any interest all all in COVID-19.

Fouremco thank you for your detailed and factual response about what has been communicated in Ontario and in Canada.  I hoped you would respond to some of the misinformation being thrown around.  Much appreciated!

[TeeRick]

A good news story for the Pfizer vaccine from the country of Israel which has one of the highest rates of vaccination at this point in time.  In the real world scenario of vaccinating the population,  the 95% efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine seems to be holding true.  Only 20 out of 128,000 vaccinated were positive for the virus.  None of these 20 infected were seriously ill or were hospitalized.  This is the first analysis to date of the post-vaccinated population so it is early but highly encouraging.  As I've stated before we want to see vaccine effectiveness in the real world scenario and in this one case it seems to match the clinical trial efficacy.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/week-after-2nd-pfizer-vaccine-shot-only-20-of-128000-israelis-get-covid/

Edited January 26, 2021 by TeeRick

[TeeRick]

J&J earnings call today.

 

J&J Chief Financial Officer Joseph Wolk told CNBC on Tuesday the company expects the phase three trial data to be “robust.”

 

Also indications are the data will be released possibly by next week.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/26/johnson-johnson-jnj-earnings-q4-2020.html