Competition for Fred Olsen?

[hamishg]

I see Royal Caribbean have sold Azamara to a private equity firm which means that the competition is preparing to heat up a little in the segment area just above Fred Olsens. It’s not a suprising move for Royal Caribbean as Azamara was kind of pitched in “no man’s land” quality wise, between Celebrity and Silver Sea who have much larger fleets. RC have never committed to investing any $$$ in a new-build for the line and have maybe been waiting for the right time to sell?  

 

So now they can pocket $201 Mil, which no doubt will help their balance sheet during these Covid times and divest themselves of the problem of an older 3 ship R class fleet trying to make $$ in an awkward corner of the market.

 

For small ship cruisers its good news as it should mean some new itineraries. The new owners have already bought the Pacific Princess – a sister R Class ship to their existing fleet, with plans to enlarge the fleet to 5 or maybe 6. I would imagine this would depend a bit on whether Oceana are prepared to sell off any of their R Class ships…? I rather doubt that the new owners have deep enough pockets to invest in a new-build at this stage.

 

So what does this mean for Fred Olsen? With an increased sized fleet the all new Azamara may start to encroach into some of Fred’s world cruise & fly-cruise itineraries – especially away from the Northern Atlantic and Baltic region which is already a bit crowded.

 

Azamara has recently gained a reputation for “cutting corners” on all manner of things so it will be interesting to see if the new owners are prepared to offer back a bit more quality and repair the line’s reputation?

[tring]

10 hours ago, hamishg said:

I see Royal Caribbean have sold Azamara to a private equity firm which means that the competition is preparing to heat up a little in the segment area just above Fred Olsens. It’s not a suprising move for Royal Caribbean as Azamara was kind of pitched in “no man’s land” quality wise, between Celebrity and Silver Sea who have much larger fleets. RC have never committed to investing any $$$ in a new-build for the line and have maybe been waiting for the right time to sell?  

 

So now they can pocket $201 Mil, which no doubt will help their balance sheet during these Covid times and divest themselves of the problem of an older 3 ship R class fleet trying to make $$ in an awkward corner of the market.

 

For small ship cruisers its good news as it should mean some new itineraries. The new owners have already bought the Pacific Princess – a sister R Class ship to their existing fleet, with plans to enlarge the fleet to 5 or maybe 6. I would imagine this would depend a bit on whether Oceana are prepared to sell off any of their R Class ships…? I rather doubt that the new owners have deep enough pockets to invest in a new-build at this stage.

 

So what does this mean for Fred Olsen? With an increased sized fleet the all new Azamara may start to encroach into some of Fred’s world cruise & fly-cruise itineraries – especially away from the Northern Atlantic and Baltic region which is already a bit crowded.

 

Azamara has recently gained a reputation for “cutting corners” on all manner of things so it will be interesting to see if the new owners are prepared to offer back a bit more quality and repair the line’s reputation?

 

The news about Azamara broke more than two weeks ago. Depends what sort of itineraries they do IMO.  To date Az have based their ships in a specific (often well travelled) location for a season and repeated cruises are much the same every two weeks.  Lots of Med as well.  So not really  a UK cruisers preference and Fred has to date mainly housed UK folk, though I do think he may pick up some ex HAL cruisers who will follow Fred's new ships.

 

What remains to be seen is how Fred's prices go.  He has always sold more cheaply a while after the cruises first come on sale or with offers like 3 for 2, which have not been happening.  Whilst we have so far felt it was worth paying more for Fred's better itineraries, the extra cost is now getting very silly and with the bigger ships the itineraries are more restricted.  Land holidays with the occasional up market cruise if the itinerary is right could well be our future, though will still keep an eye open for any late offers on Fred, especially if from a local departure port.

 

Hope all is well with you.  Just been thinking recently of last year on Boudicca.  We disembarked a year and two days ago and you were still on board.  We were lucky to have such a good hol as the world was starting to feel the problems.  Our pre cruise tour and stay in Sri Lanka was brilliant and we had some good fun at the Indian ports.  Just wondering when or if we will get the chance to use the rest of our 5 year Indian Visa's.

 

Cheers,

 

Barbara

Edited February 22, 2021 by tring

[Britboys]

I can see what you mean regarding the fly-cruise and World cruise market but I somehow doubt it will encroach on Fred that much. They may lose some international pax but the majority of Fred's pax are British and enjoy the British atmosphere on his ships. I would hazard a guess that many book direct by now and enjoy the ease of the included flights etc. Where they could impact on Fred is if the Olsen prices don't come down by 2023 and if Azamara chose to have a UK base for a season.

Since the demise of CMV, Fred has very little direct competition in the UK and if, as is likely, P&O dispose of Aurora and Arcadia in the next 2 - 4 years, there will be even less.

[tring]

40 minutes ago, Britboys said:

I can see what you mean regarding the fly-cruise and World cruise market but I somehow doubt it will encroach on Fred that much. They may lose some international pax but the majority of Fred's pax are British and enjoy the British atmosphere on his ships. I would hazard a guess that many book direct by now and enjoy the ease of the included flights etc. Where they could impact on Fred is if the Olsen prices don't come down by 2023 and if Azamara chose to have a UK base for a season.

Since the demise of CMV, Fred has very little direct competition in the UK and if, as is likely, P&O dispose of Aurora and Arcadia in the next 2 - 4 years, there will be even less.

 

Not so sure if you have done a fly cruise with Fred, but he does not include flights, unless you go for the flight included prices, which have been considerably more expensive than the cruise only prices in our experience and way over the normal flight/transfer prices.  We have booked our own flights with Emirates or Etihad for Fred fly cruises we have done, though we did extended holiday stays anyway so his flights would not have worked. 

 

We went for his included flight price for a Tenerife fly cruise a few years ago, though were extremely unhappy with the flight as well as being "held" in the transfer coach for 45 mins at the resort airport pre cruise even though all pax present.  Also had that flight delayed by about an hour in Manchester, but people called and had to stand in a queue for more that 30-40 mins with no seats available at the gate and even been a massive queue for the initial flight check in before that.

 

May be worth his flights/transfers in some circumstances, but definitely worth considering options IMO.  He sometimes gives free flights for last minute cruises if he is still trying to fill the cruises and presumably has a lot of flight space over.

 

[Britboys]

2 hours ago, tring said:

 

Not so sure if you have done a fly cruise with Fred, but he does not include flights, unless you go for the flight included prices, which have been considerably more expensive than the cruise only prices in our experience and way over the normal flight/transfer prices.  We have booked our own flights with Emirates or Etihad for Fred fly cruises we have done, though we did extended holiday stays anyway so his flights would not have worked. 

 

We went for his included flight price for a Tenerife fly cruise a few years ago, though were extremely unhappy with the flight as well as being "held" in the transfer coach for 45 mins at the resort airport pre cruise even though all pax present.  Also had that flight delayed by about an hour in Manchester, but people called and had to stand in a queue for more that 30-40 mins with no seats available at the gate and even been a massive queue for the initial flight check in before that.

 

May be worth his flights/transfers in some circumstances, but definitely worth considering options IMO.  He sometimes gives free flights for last minute cruises if he is still trying to fill the cruises and presumably has a lot of flight space over.

 

Thanks for that Barbara. No, I haven't. I was contemplating a fly-cruise visiting India for my retirement cruise. I discounted it after finding out that a 2 night side-trip to the Taj Mahal would cost about two-thirds of the price of a 10 night Golden Triangle tour from the UK...

Mind you, although I am a fairly confident traveller, I would be reluctant to book separate long-haul flights now, having seen what happened when Covid hit the world...

[tring]

2 hours ago, Britboys said:

Thanks for that Barbara. No, I haven't. I was contemplating a fly-cruise visiting India for my retirement cruise. I discounted it after finding out that a 2 night side-trip to the Taj Mahal would cost about two-thirds of the price of a 10 night Golden Triangle tour from the UK...

Mind you, although I am a fairly confident traveller, I would be reluctant to book separate long-haul flights now, having seen what happened when Covid hit the world...

 

People who did the Taj Mahal trip also missed some good time in the Indian ports last year in our opinion as well.  We had great fun going off on our own in all the Indian Ports.  Quite true about booking now, we would not consider anything that was not a package, though we have come across people on Fred's fly cruises who had booked the cruise with an agent who had also arranged the flights and an overnight hotel and sold them on as a package, so the package protections were still there and I think it gave them the hotel night post cruise, a better flight and it was still cheaper than Fred.  Just have to make sure the agent has booked it as a package though and not done two different bookings for you, which would not be a package as such, so no protection.  I am wondering if agents may be a lot more cautious of making up their own packages now mind. 

 

Last year we actually booked much of the Sri Lankan holiday part with Kuoni and they also booked our flights.  We were surprised to find they could get us a better price for the flights, than the cheapest, pre-pay deal with Emirates, as well as better luggage allowance and, until about one month out (when we were "ticketed"), we would have been able to change the flights for another destination entirely for an admin fee.   Just need to book a certain amount of hotels with them, though we booked our own cheaper hotels independently in Colombo and Dubai as well as the cruise.  I know the Middle East would not be on your travel destination list, but seems it can happen with other airlines/tour operators/destinations as well since we had discussed similar with a company who arrange fly drive holidays to Canada a few years back when we would have wanted to spend time with relatives during the holiday.  Never got round to doing that though.

 

We are looking to do similar in India with our own car/driver for a tour along with a couple of hotel stays, but not sure Kuoni will be the best for that as they contract with another company for India, rather than do it as their own holiday (they are very big in Sri Lanka and get some very good prices for the more up market hotels, which you really need IMO if you go off into the Inland areas, though we are not luxury hotel people at all).  We are thinking of trying Trailfinders for India as they do some interesting independent tours like that as well as the group tours (which whisk you through places far too quickly for our liking), but not had them produce an itinerary/price as yet.  We did get an itinerary/price from them for Sri Lanka and Kuoni were both better priced for the same hotels etc. as well as more flexible, and willing to let us choose exactly what we did and when.  Strange that the driver, who took us on our 6 night tour also works for Trailfinders though.  Trailfinders can also book cruises, including Fred.

 

Doubt we would risk India next winter, but perhaps the year after, though we are aware it will then be around our 73rd birthdays by hen - time is advancing so just hope the bodies bear up. 

 

I am back to rabbiting again, but good to be back to thinking about future plans rather than keeping a track on cancellations and what will likely not go ahead.  Hopefully it will be back to just planning future holidays soon, albeit very warily to start with.

 

Barbara

Edited February 23, 2021 by tring

[Britboys]

19 minutes ago, tring said:

 

People who did the Taj Mahal trip also missed some good time in the Indian ports last year in our opinion as well.  We had great fun going off on our own in all the Indian Ports.  Quite true about booking now, we would not consider anything that was not a package, though we have come across people on Fred's fly cruises who had booked the cruise with an agent who had also arranged the flights and an overnight hotel and sold them on as a package, so the package protections were still there and I think it gave them the hotel night post cruise, a better flight and it was still cheaper than Fred.  Just have to make sure the agent has booked it as a package though and not done two different bookings for you, which would not be a package as such, so no protection.  I am wondering if agents may be a lot more cautious of making up their own packages now mind. 

 

Last year we actually booked much of the Sri Lankan holiday part with Kuoni and they also booked our flights.  We were surprised to find they could get us a better price for the flights, than the cheapest, pre-pay deal with Emirates, as well as better luggage allowance and, until about one month out (when we were "ticketed"), we would have been able to change the flights for another destination entirely for an admin fee.   Just need to book a certain amount of hotels with them, though we booked our own cheaper hotels independently in Colombo and Dubai as well as the cruise.  I know the Middle East would not be on your travel destination list, but seems it can happen with other airlines/tour operators/destinations as well since we had discussed similar with a company who arrange fly drive holidays to Canada a few years back when we would have wanted to spend time with relatives during the holiday.  Never got round to doing that though.

 

We are looking to do similar in India with our own car/driver for a tour along with a couple of hotel stays, but not sure Kuoni will be the best for that as they contract with another company for India, rather than do it as their own holiday (they are very big in Sri Lanka and get some very good prices for the more up market hotels, which you really need IMO if you go off into the Inland areas, though we are not luxury hotel people at all).  We are thinking of trying Trailfinders for India as they do some interesting independent tours like that as well as the group tours (which whisk you through places far too quickly for our liking), but not had them produce an itinerary/price as yet.  We did get an itinerary/price from them for Sri Lanka and Kuoni were both better priced for the same hotels etc. as well as more flexible, and willing to let us choose exactly what we did and when.  Strange that the driver, who took us on our 6 night tour also works for Trailfinders though.  Trailfinders can also book cruises, including Fred.

 

Doubt we would risk India next winter, but perhaps the year after, though we are aware it will then be around our 73rd birthdays by hen - time is advancing so just hope the bodies bear up. 

 

I am back to rabbiting again, but good to be back to thinking about future plans rather than keeping a track on cancellations and what will likely not go ahead.  Hopefully it will be back to just planning future holidays soon, albeit very warily to start with.

 

Barbara

Feel free to rabbit - interesting stuff thanks Barbara. Fortunately, I have a friend whose partner has a dislike of certain countries/travel plans and those include India. Consequently, having done The Nile and Alaska with him, we are planning to do India together - maybe 2023. Seen some interesting itineraries, some including cruises and/or trains, like the Maharajah Express. Hopefully we'll find something to suit us.

[tring]

3 hours ago, Britboys said:

Feel free to rabbit - interesting stuff thanks Barbara. Fortunately, I have a friend whose partner has a dislike of certain countries/travel plans and those include India. Consequently, having done The Nile and Alaska with him, we are planning to do India together - maybe 2023. Seen some interesting itineraries, some including cruises and/or trains, like the Maharajah Express. Hopefully we'll find something to suit us.

 

Was going to say see you there, but highly unlikely of course.  A few years back we were talking to someone on the Indian Tourist Board stand at the big travel show that is held in Manchester early January (they do one on London as well) and picked up various leaflets/brochures for a couple of the luxury trains.  Sounded good at first, then I was not so sure but cannot remember why.  Possibly they travel overnight, in which case I would have decided I would be unlikely to sleep as I am easily disturbed.  I have heard that the road journeys are long and the roads not good either - one agent told us a car would be less comfortable than a coach because of the roads, but a private tour is essential for us for three reasons:-  we do not do early mornings, (particularly me); we like to spend longer in each place to appreciate it fully and do not travel a long way each day, often putting in more stops;  I do not now go more than an hour or so without a loo stop (though have long since stopped bothering about the quality of such).  We always thought we would like to do the Golden Triangle, though are beginning to think the pollution in Delhi may be a big problem, especially for me as I am asthmatic and also I have a neurological problem (eye dystonia) which makes it very difficult to open my eyes in polluted atmospheres.  May take the chance and go for it though.  We are also considering a road journey from Chennai to Kochi, along with hotel stops for a number of days both ends and a beach stop somewhere (if we go that far we tend to stay for about a month).

We got quite used to the ferries round Kochi on our two day stop last year.  The ticket queues could get a bit long, but soon realised there was a separate "ladies queue" so I got the tickets.  Some of the locals were quite helpful at times.  We had planned to get the ferry back to the cruise port after a Kathakali show on the first day which was absolutely brilliant.  After walking back to the ferry dock, we were told by the ticket clerk that the next ferry to where we wanted to go was not until the following morning.  DH wanted to just go away and find a taxi (not that we had seen any on our fairly long walk to the ferry as it was about 8pm and dark with no tourists around).  I would have none of it and bought tickets so we could travel on the next ferry to the main city area which was beyond the cruise terminal ferry stop, with the assumption that there may be a ferry from there and if not we would be able to pick up a taxi more easily from the city (having explored a little).  In fact there was a ferry leaving the city area soon after we got there, so we never had the look around.  What we did do though is pass Boudicca, all lit up of course.  Many of the locals on the ferry, (well there were no tourists at that time of night), were keen to move nearer to the windows and take pictures of Boudicca.  I got a good picture of the locals, taking pics of Boudicca 🙂  

 

The next day we walked a distance for the cruise terminal and picked up a tuk tuk with a driver who was less keen to hassle the cruise passengers and persumably try to rip  them off, and did a tuk tuk tour of the other tourist sites like the laundry, more temples and a historic house (forget the name) and then he took us to a sea side restaurant for a meal  We have done the main tourist sites in Kochi, but would love to return to just hang around a bit and they do other performances at the Kathakali centre.  I am sure you will love India. 

 

Barbara   

Edited February 23, 2021 by tring

[Britboys]

Thanks Barbara. I hope so. We would need a fairly 'sanitised' and luxury trip as neither of us are as adventurous as you sound! Also, I can't take spicy food, so would need good options. I never thought I would even consider India but after spending time in Cairo, whilst I know India will be 'worse', I decided the chaos and colourful squalor was quite intoxicating. We could even decide on a classic Golden Triangle tour and a Shimla extension with someone like Saga, Titan or Jules Verne.

[tring]

As an addition to my previous post this is where we got tickets for the Kathakali:-

 

 https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/AttractionProductReview-g297633-d19098698-Skip_the_Line_Experience_Kathakali_in_Kochi_Ticket-Kochi_Cochin_Ernakulam_District.html 

 

It is from Trip advisor, (which I know is a sister site of CC), but have posted this on a different post, just in case of any problem.  If you go to Kerala at any stage you must see this if you can and the tickets were so cheap done independently, though a few tour groups turned up.

[tring]

42 minutes ago, Britboys said:

Thanks Barbara. I hope so. We would need a fairly 'sanitised' and luxury trip as neither of us are as adventurous as you sound! Also, I can't take spicy food, so would need good options. I never thought I would even consider India but after spending time in Cairo, whilst I know India will be 'worse', I decided the chaos and colourful squalor was quite intoxicating. We could even decide on a classic Golden Triangle tour and a Shimla extension with someone like Saga, Titan or Jules Verne.

 

That sounds great, Shimla does appeal.  We did feel "adventurous", but Kochi is basically a city/tourist area and the locals were generally well presented and quite clean, as was the surroundings and the ferries - we just did not go in a group.  The restaurant we went to was a tourist one.  I also have trouble with spicy food, but find it easy to ask for food to be made with a very light spice in tourist restaurants and I never eat any sort of spice in the evenings as I would not be able to lie down to sleep.  We went off to the Taj Hotel in Mumbai for a light bar lunch of hot food, which was delicious, and managed to sneak a peak of the hotel as well to see the other side if India.  Africa can be much more iffy in our view, though I am sure, depending on where you go in India, it can also be very dubious indeed, which is where a car/driver or tour admittedly becomes essential.  I do a lot of research and know where we are going when we go off on our own.  Porbandar was quite different as not the typical tourist place for non Indian people, but again a tuktuk to Ghandi's birthplace and another temple was brilliant. 

 

Sorry I edited the last post after you had read it.  Hope you enjoy what will be a very special holiday,

 

Barbara

Edited February 23, 2021 by tring