Cruise lines requiring COVID-19 vaccination

[mr walker]

18 hours ago, MMDown Under said:

Sorry.  I was a member of a Union all my working life and I thought they were formed to look after the rights and interests of workers.  

That was why they were formed & for many years they did a good job of it. Then it became self-serving on behalf of the union officials & employees, rather than for the members, certainly with the unions I had interaction with. Get a job with the union, get paid by the members money & hopefully end up with a job in politics - the gravy train.

ABS figures show that union membership in Aust dropped from 46% in 1986 to 19% in 2007. EDITED to add that as of Aug 2020 it had dropped to 14% Now, to be fair, the number of jobs that would have normally been 'union shops' dropped away as manufacturing went offshore, but there is clearly a lot less union membership, and there must be a reason for that 😉

Edited April 5, 2021 by mr walker
more info

[Patois]

1 hour ago, mr walker said:

That was why they were formed & for many years they did a good job of it. Then it became self-serving on behalf of the union officials & employees, rather than for the members, certainly with the unions I had interaction with. Get a job with the union, get paid by the members money & hopefully end up with a job in politics - the gravy train.

ABS figures show that union membership in Aust dropped from 46% in 1986 to 19% in 2007. EDITED to add that as of Aug 2020 it had dropped to 14% Now, to be fair, the number of jobs that would have normally been 'union shops' dropped away as manufacturing went offshore, but there is clearly a lot less union membership, and there must be a reason for that 😉

Maybe there is a correlation between declining union membership and no real wages growth .

[nnps]

1 hour ago, Patois said:

Maybe there is a correlation between declining union membership and no real wages growth .

Exactly what I was thinking. All I know is that if it hadn't been for the unions, many of the benefits we take for granted today would not be enjoyed.

[MMDown Under]

2 hours ago, nnps said:

Exactly what I was thinking. All I know is that if it hadn't been for the unions, many of the benefits we take for granted today would not be enjoyed.

You only have to look at "work choices" to see what happens when politicians gain total power, without checks and balances. 

"Brazen Husseys" currently showing on Iview or viewing tonight shows how far we have come with union help. 

I think declining union membership is because people don't remember how bad conditions were for workers and people are short of money, because of low wages.  

[ilikeanswers]

10 minutes ago, MMDown Under said:

You only have to look at "work choices" to see what happens when politicians gain total power, without checks and balances. 

"Brazen Husseys" currently showing on Iview or viewing tonight shows how far we have come with union help. 

I think declining union membership is because people don't remember how bad conditions were for workers and people are short of money, because of low wages.  

 

I think it also has to do with the casualisation of the workforce. These days it seems more jobs want you as a contracter or freelancer🙄.

[MMDown Under]

38 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think it also has to do with the casualisation of the workforce. These days it seems more jobs want you as a contracter or freelancer🙄.

Yes, I agree.  Many high demand workers, like my daughters, now set the terms of working conditions they require.  

 

39 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

 

[Blackduck59]

I think that when unions started the working conditions were appalling. As time went by and after hard work and personal sacrifice by many dedicated workers, truly interested in helping their fellow workers conditions got better. Over the years thing continued to get better but the "leadership" gradually became lawyers and hangers on, many of them never worked in the trades they represented. We see it here Teacher's Union Presidents who haven't been in a classroom in decades, Nurse's Union Presidents who couldn't work a shift if their life depended on it. My dad was a union member for decades, as his career was coming to a close he was working at a small saw mill, 2 years from retirement; for some reason the union called a strike without a vote from membership. The mill my dad worked for never sawed another log, it closed permanently as did many others. The job was gone with no severance and nowhere else to work (who would hire a 63 year old millwright). He went into a deep depression taking whatever menial jobs he could get until he got a custodial job that gave him purpose for a time until my mom retired and he retired at the same time. I have avoided unions, there are few "union" jobs in my field and those that are in the union just rotate in and out of them as well as taking non union jobs when it is slow at the union.

[Tranquility Base]

NCLH has requested  the CDC to permit sailings from US ports starting in July,

Vaccinations will be required.

(NCLH operates NCL, Oceania, Regent)

Edited April 5, 2021 by Tranquility Base

[MMDown Under]

1 hour ago, Blackduck59 said:

I think that when unions started the working conditions were appalling. As time went by and after hard work and personal sacrifice by many dedicated workers, truly interested in helping their fellow workers conditions got better. Over the years thing continued to get better but the "leadership" gradually became lawyers and hangers on, many of them never worked in the trades they represented. We see it here Teacher's Union Presidents who haven't been in a classroom in decades, Nurse's Union Presidents who couldn't work a shift if their life depended on it. My dad was a union member for decades, as his career was coming to a close he was working at a small saw mill, 2 years from retirement; for some reason the union called a strike without a vote from membership. The mill my dad worked for never sawed another log, it closed permanently as did many others. The job was gone with no severance and nowhere else to work (who would hire a 63 year old millwright). He went into a deep depression taking whatever menial jobs he could get until he got a custodial job that gave him purpose for a time until my mom retired and he retired at the same time. I have avoided unions, there are few "union" jobs in my field and those that are in the union just rotate in and out of them as well as taking non union jobs when it is slow at the union.

Sorry your dad's career ended with his mill closing.  Do you know why the mills closed down at that time?  Was the work no longer there?  

I was sad when my FIL's career ended.  His boss put him off just before he was entitled to pro rata LSL.  Yet he still gsve his boss a carton of beer for Christmas.  

[Blackduck59]

This would have been the late 1980s, at the time many mills were marginal and it was time to "re-negotiate" and the Union was feeling the need to show their power. Well they shut the industry down for monthes (without a mandate from the membership) and many mills closed, of course the Union President and all their staff drew full pay throughout while the "membership" got hosed.

[Aus Traveller]

2 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

This would have been the late 1980s, at the time many mills were marginal and it was time to "re-negotiate" and the Union was feeling the need to show their power. Well they shut the industry down for monthes (without a mandate from the membership) and many mills closed, of course the Union President and all their staff drew full pay throughout while the "membership" got hosed.

I am sorry to hear your father's story.

 

My mother always said that, when a Union called a strike, the Union officials should go without pay as well as the members of the Union. 🙂

[MicCanberra]

I too have had union involvement over the years, some good outcomes (Safety on work sites), some bad (striking for the wrong reasons, backing the wrong members).

One such time was the union making the company reinstate a guy who was stealing as he wasn't warned 3 times not to do it.

[avalon007]

This thread has quite a them & us tone to it based around a fear of anyone not vaccinated  - seeming to assume if you get the jab you will be 'safe'. But that is not the case - people need to be aware that just like the flu vaccine the Covid vaccine has a variable effective rate. This from NSW Gov health:

 

" Benefits of the vaccine A combination of several clinical trials showed that COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca is effective in preventing COVID-19 in people aged 18 years and older. People who had two doses of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca were about 62-70% less likely to get COVID-19 than people who did not get the vaccine." 
 

What the medical fraternity calls effective at preventing Covid is obviously different than what many of the public may consider effective - 62% is still a long way off, even if the 70% is accurate, at least 30% of anyone on board could still get Covid vaccinated or not. A vaccine is not a guarantee of protection. 
So a fully vaccinated ships crew & passengers does not mean you won't get Covid - although if you don't have a comorbidity even if you get Covid you are likely to be fine, vaccinated or not.

 

I find based on the stats there seems to be in some cases an irrational fear of dying from Covid - my elderly aunt believes if you get it & you are over 80 you will die for sure - yet the death rate even in that highest risk category is 14.8% - so 85.2% percent recover, yet she lives in fear. When the SARS & MERS viruses were about with much higher death rates people seemed less concerned but the SARS death rate was 9.6% & MERS death rate was 34.3% compared to Covid at around 3.4%. Not a lot of logic in the debate around Covid at times I find.

[By The Bay]

24 minutes ago, avalon007 said:

" if you get Covid you are likely to be fine, vaccinated or not."

 

"Not a lot of logic in the debate around Covid at times I find."

🤔

[OzKiwiJJ]

37 minutes ago, avalon007 said:

 

So a fully vaccinated ships crew & passengers does not mean you won't get Covid - although if you don't have a comorbidity even if you get Covid you are likely to be fine, vaccinated or not.

 

It is true that there is still the possibility you could get Covid onboard BUT, from what I understand from all the info about the vaccines, those that are vaccinated would have much milder symptoms and would not be as likely to pass it on. However if someone onboard was not vaccinated then that person would run the same risk of becoming severely ill or contracting "long Covid" as now and would be more of a risk of infecting other passengers.

[NSWP]

1 hour ago, avalon007 said:

This thread has quite a them & us tone to it based around a fear of anyone not vaccinated  - seeming to assume if you get the jab you will be 'safe'. But that is not the case - people need to be aware that just like the flu vaccine the Covid vaccine has a variable effective rate. This from NSW Gov health:

 

" Benefits of the vaccine A combination of several clinical trials showed that COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca is effective in preventing COVID-19 in people aged 18 years and older. People who had two doses of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca were about 62-70% less likely to get COVID-19 than people who did not get the vaccine." 
 

What the medical fraternity calls effective at preventing Covid is obviously different than what many of the public may consider effective - 62% is still a long way off, even if the 70% is accurate, at least 30% of anyone on board could still get Covid vaccinated or not. A vaccine is not a guarantee of protection. 
So a fully vaccinated ships crew & passengers does not mean you won't get Covid - although if you don't have a comorbidity even if you get Covid you are likely to be fine, vaccinated or not.

 

I find based on the stats there seems to be in some cases an irrational fear of dying from Covid - my elderly aunt believes if you get it & you are over 80 you will die for sure - yet the death rate even in that highest risk category is 14.8% - so 85.2% percent recover, yet she lives in fear. When the SARS & MERS viruses were about with much higher death rates people seemed less concerned but the SARS death rate was 9.6% & MERS death rate was 34.3% compared to Covid at around 3.4%. Not a lot of logic in the debate around Covid at times I find.

Good post. Some oldies are paranoid re covid19. I know of some who have not been out of their house for a year, I kid you not.

[Docker123]

This may provide an interesting challenge to cruise lines — 

 

The Governor of Florida has issued an order banning companies from requiring people to provide proof of vaccination to use services.

 

 

“It’s completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply participate in normal society,” DeSantis said last week.

 

His order prohibits businesses in Florida from requiring customers to provide documentation certifying they have been vaccinated against COVID-19 or have recovered from the virus in order to receive services.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/corporate-communism-vaccine-passport-latest-fight-in-covid-culture-wars-20210406-p57gpz.html

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Docker123

[NSWP]

26 minutes ago, Docker123 said:

This may provide an interesting challenge to cruise lines — 

 

The Governor of Florida has issued an order banning companies from requiring people to provide proof of vaccination to use services.

 

 

“It’s completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply participate in normal society,” DeSantis said last week.

 

His order prohibits businesses in Florida from requiring customers to provide documentation certifying they have been vaccinated against COVID-19 or have recovered from the virus in order to receive services.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/corporate-communism-vaccine-passport-latest-fight-in-covid-culture-wars-20210406-p57gpz.html

 

And several cruise lines operate from Florida, the retirement State of USA.  The Governor's order will create havoc. But he might have signed the death warrant for cruises from Florida, the cruise lines could go and base themselves elsewhere if they insist on Covid vaccs.

[Blackduck59]

29 minutes ago, Docker123 said:

This may provide an interesting challenge to cruise lines — 

 

The Governor of Florida has issued an order banning companies from requiring people to provide proof of vaccination to use services.

 

 

“It’s completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply participate in normal society,” DeSantis said last week.

 

His order prohibits businesses in Florida from requiring customers to provide documentation certifying they have been vaccinated against COVID-19 or have recovered from the virus in order to receive services.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/corporate-communism-vaccine-passport-latest-fight-in-covid-culture-wars-20210406-p57gpz.html

 

Funny thing, CDC trumps Governor every time.

[lyndarra]

1 hour ago, Docker123 said:

This may provide an interesting challenge to cruise lines — 

 

The Governor of Florida has issued an order banning companies from requiring people to provide proof of vaccination to use services.

 

 

“It’s completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply participate in normal society,” DeSantis said last week.

 

His order prohibits businesses in Florida from requiring customers to provide documentation certifying they have been vaccinated against COVID-19 or have recovered from the virus in order to receive services.

 

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/corporate-communism-vaccine-passport-latest-fight-in-covid-culture-wars-20210406-p57gpz.html

 

That was a thread on the Celebrity board which devolved into a slanging match and a mod  closed it down.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, NSWP said:

And several cruise lines operate from Florida, the retirement State of USA.  The Governor's order will create havoc. But he might have signed the death warrant for cruises from Florida, the cruise lines could go and base themselves elsewhere if they insist on Covid vaccs.

 

Someone explained in another thread that cruise lines should be exempt as they come under some sort of federal legislation so technically they are not Florida businesses

[NSWP]

Meanwhile, our federal and state governments remain tight lipped on any return to cruising.

[Docker123]

9 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Meanwhile, our federal and state governments remain tight lipped on any return to cruising.

I am sure they will have an announcement ready when they have 85% of the population fully vaccinated.

 

Should be around the 12th of never.

 

[Blackduck59]

1 hour ago, lyndarra said:

That was a thread on the Celebrity board which devolved into a slanging match and a mod  closed it down.

 

That seems to be SOP on that board Lyndon. it is often painful to read those threads, I try to resist although some of the return fire on the more idiotic posts can be quite entertaining. I do have to admit though that one of my very blunt responses to a particularly obtuse individual did get a thread closed and deleted.

[Porky55]

On 4/3/2021 at 8:56 AM, MMDown Under said:

not normally strengths of the medical profession.  

Or State Govts so it seems 😉