CDC Ruining Cruising in the US

[YoHoHo]

6 hours ago, LHT28 said:

So far  has anyone proven that fully vaccinated people cannot get or spread  the new variants of the Covid  virus ??

 

JMO

 

6 hours ago, Shawnino said:

 

Well, you're asking for proof of a negative, which is logically troubling...

 

Huh? How do they know the efficacy of the current vaccines? Isn't that, by your logic, proving a negative. Of course there are scientists, data modeller, etc working on determining the how effective a vaccine is in controlling the spread of the virus by those already vaccinated.

 

Your comment is "is logically troubling..."

 

(Oh, and your hate speech if sneaking out again.)

Edited March 26, 2021 by YoHoHo

[LHT28]

22 minutes ago, YoHoHo said:

 

Huh? How do they know the efficacy of the current vaccines? Isn't that, by your logic, proving a negative. Of course there are scientists, data modeller, etc working on determining the how effective a vaccine is in controlling the spread of the virus by those already vaccinated.

 

 

Well I was asking as  I have not seen any data only from the trials  & none say if people are vaccinated if  can they still get it  or spread it

 

Now with the new variants ramping up here  & appts for the  shot are scarce  it would be  something to think about

My sister just got her 1st shot today I go next week & DH we are playing the  open spot game

(now you see it now you don't)

 It would be good if they had some data on those that have both shots if they got covid again or not

surely they are monitoring this

YMMV

[Shawnino]

32 minutes ago, YoHoHo said:

 

Huh? How do they know the efficacy of the current vaccines? Isn't that, by your logic, proving a negative. Of course there are scientists, data modeller, etc working on determining the how effective a vaccine is in controlling the spread of the virus by those already vaccinated.

 

Your comment is "is logically troubling..."

 

(Oh, and your hate speech if sneaking out again.)

Are you serious?

Poster asked "So far  has anyone proven that fully vaccinated people cannot get or spread  the new variants of the Covid  virus ??"

 

And the literal answer is "of course not--such a negative can never be proven". But to poster's point, various variants seem to have different transmissibility rates among the vaccinated. We're still learning, but the early evidence is generally good.

 

I don't know what you're blathering on about with hate speech, but, hey, educate yourself.

[YoHoHo]

4 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

Well I was asking as  I have not seen any data only from the trials  & none say if people are vaccinated if  can they still get it  or spread it

 

I included your post just to give context to the other posters reply.

I too have not seen numbers on this though not search for it - just seen general comments from our health officials. For example CDC: "We’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions in public places like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces until we know more."

 

So they don't know, yet. Simple enough to follow the usual guidelines once vaccinated and continue to consider others, though some are challenged. Good luck getting your shots.

[Daniel A]

8 hours ago, LHT28 said:

So far  has anyone proven that fully vaccinated people cannot get or spread  the new variants of the Covid  virus ??

So far has anyone proven that fully vaccinated people can get or spread  the new variants of the Covid  virus ??  I'd like to see your evidence that vaccinated people will still be virus spreaders.  Don't work too hard, there is no evidence either way.  Fauci and company are merely guessing.  I just love how the government can ruin peoples lives just because they are guessing about what could possibly happen.  This is the 'new normal.'  Welcome to big brother who will dictate what you can and cannot do.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Daniel A

[XCoastie73]

6 hours ago, DrHemlock said:

Good one, njhorseman!  Looking forward to one or more of the legal eagles on this board addressing the question.  (Sadly, it's above my pay-grade.)

The standard for nullifying administrative rules is that the rule is arbitrary, capricious or an abuse of discretion (beyond the agency's statutory authority).

 

Did the agency make a sufficiently rigorous inquiry (in a typical promulgation of a regulation, there would be notice to and comment from the public)?  Did it accurately apply legal (or, in this case, scientific) standards?

 

I'm in Texas, where the Governor has relaxed the clampdown -- from a governmental perspective.  However, we're such a litigious society (even in Texas!) that many establishments here STILL impose a mask requirement, I think out of fear of litigation should someone somehow trace their infection back to that establishment.  (Or it's just virtue signaling.)

[LHT28]

3 hours ago, YoHoHo said:

So they don't know, yet. Simple enough to follow the usual guidelines once vaccinated and continue to consider others, though some are challenged. Good luck getting your shots.

Yes early days  in the grand scheme of vaccines

We will still take precautions when going out in public  after our shots

 

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

So far has anyone proven that fully vaccinated people can get or spread  the new variants of the Covid  virus ??  I'd like to see your evidence that vaccinated people will still be virus spreaders.  Don't work too hard, there is no evidence either way.

Well when you find the info let us know

I am sure some medical lab is keeping track

 

[john2003]

In BC we have had positive tests within care facilities where the person has had both doses. The vaccination benefit is that it is much less severe. I think it is also clear that if you are positive you can transmit.

[Paulchili]

52 minutes ago, john2003 said:

I think it is also clear that if you are positive you can transmit.

Not sure how clear this is. Maybe their viral load is too small for transmission or maybe not?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Paulchili

[john2003]

3 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Not sure how clear this is. Maybe their viral load is too small for transmission or maybe not?

Yes  I agree this is possible if the residents were each infected by someone who was unvaccinated.

[SargassoPirate]

15 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Doesn't freedom of speech still apply?

How about freedom of assembly too?  According to our fearless leader if we all get vaccinated and continue to wear a mask, on the 4th of July we will be allowed to gather in our backyards for a cookout.  

 

That's real progress, considering we could do just that last year without a vaccine!

 

I don't understand the CDC's reluctance to let cruise lines resume if all crew and passengers are vaccinated.  

[Aloha 1]

18 hours ago, YoHoHo said:

 

Huh? How do they know the efficacy of the current vaccines? Isn't that, by your logic, proving a negative. Of course there are scientists, data modeller, etc working on determining the how effective a vaccine is in controlling the spread of the virus by those already vaccinated.

 

Your comment is "is logically troubling..."

 

(Oh, and your hate speech if sneaking out again.)

300 + days of research since the first people were vaccinated. That's how they know what they know now. 95% effective from GETTING the virus in the first place and mild to no symptoms if by chance you do. in order to infect someone you need 2 factors: Duration of exposure and viral load from the person infected. General medical belief is that vaccinated people would have very little viral load. Research studies are now underway to further our understanding. 

[Roccaforte]

Governor DeSantis met with Department of Transportation and cruise line officials at Port Canaveral yesterday.  He is threatening legal action against the CDC for their rigid policy on keeping cruise ships from sailing from US ports. Maybe this will help.  I can’t see too much danger in cruising if all passengers are required to show proof of vaccination.  So many people are going to Nassau to cruise Crystal this summer.  Time to give American port workers a break.

[Cruise NH]

There's a lot of vitriol aimed at the CDC but do we know what the cruise industry's role in this is?  What have they submitted to the CDC to prove it's safe to sail?  For all we know they have not complied with anything they've been asked to do (I hope that's not true!).

 

And I think we should remember that Florida was the state that wouldn't let a HAL ship dock when they had sick people on it (four dying) so let's hold off handing them any prizes.

[Daniel A]

8 minutes ago, Cruise NH said:

There's a lot of vitriol aimed at the CDC but do we know what the cruise industry's role in this is?  What have they submitted to the CDC to prove it's safe to sail?  For all we know they have not complied with anything they've been asked to do (I hope that's not true!).

As I understand it, the cruise lines are waiting for the CDC to issue technical guidance before they can move to the next phase.  So far, the CDC hasn't done that so the cruise lines don't know what the CDC is demanding of them.  

[TrulyBlonde]

3 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

As I understand it, the cruise lines are waiting for the CDC to issue technical guidance before they can move to the next phase.  So far, the CDC hasn't done that so the cruise lines don't know what the CDC is demanding of them.  

I saw on another board where Rubio and Scott sent a letter to Covid Task Force Coordinator requesting info from them and CDC as how to proceed. After reading the letter, it seems the CDC has been dragging it's feet and not providing any guidance.

[clo]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

s I understand it,

Could you provide a source please?

[jagoffee]

2 hours ago, Cruise NH said:

There's a lot of vitriol aimed at the CDC but do we know what the cruise industry's role in this is?  What have they submitted to the CDC to prove it's safe to sail?  For all we know they have not complied with anything they've been asked to do (I hope that's not true!).

 

And I think we should remember that Florida was the state that wouldn't let a HAL ship dock when they had sick people on it (four dying) so let's hold off handing them any prizes.

Have you read the document/framework that the CDC created initially that is still in affect?  I did when it was first create.  In my opinion that it would be impossible to meet.  I think it was create to make it impossible to restart cruising and not to create a realistic framework for restarting.  They should rescind it or update it to reflect the vaccination realities.

 Basically the cruise lines are being forced to use non USA counties to validate the restart of cruising.  The CDC has decided to follow instead of leading. The CDC is too political for my comfort.  Easy to say no, it is much harder to say yes.  IMO the CDC should make recommendations and then get out of the way.  If it was up to them, we would all be locked down and no one would be traveling except for essential business.  In the meantime we can become more dependent on the Federal government to live.  

Of course others obviously have  a different opinion about the document.   Many others have never read the CDC’s document/framework and still have an opinion. (I am guessing it is the majority)

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Could you provide a source please?

The CDC said so in early February: https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5863/

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has stated it has yet to deliver necessary technical instructions to cruise lines and port operators, nearly four months after issuing its Framework for Conditional Sailing Order."

 

The cruise industry still says that's the case, and as far as I know they are telling the truth:

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/florida-cruise-guide/os-bz-cruise-cdc-clia-statement-port-canaveral-business-20210324-pp3guru7zbhqffsuc5cjidmfvy-story.html

"Cruise lines, through, have been awaiting more guidance from the CDC to move on to the latter steps, such as the simulated sailing..."

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5988/

"It's been a confusing week in the ongoing saga between the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and cruise lines hoping to resume operations in North America. First, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said that in a Senate hearing last week that her agency wasn't the sole actor holding things back. She suggested that the Department of Transportation and other agencies were also part of the decision making. That was news to the cruise lines, who have been waiting for direction from the agency, under its Conditional Framework for Sailing order for the past six months."

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by njhorseman

[mexicobob]

On 3/25/2021 at 10:53 PM, Host Jazzbeau said:

My best friend is just back from a week in Mexico and says they had a great time.

 

There is a clear division developing between countries that want to encourage their tourism economies and those that are willing to let them die.  Cruise lines are moving their operations where they are wanted.  Same here:  I will move my trips to where I am wanted.

You will not be alone. I, for one, have already begun making plans to cruise from Barcelona. Also watching what other opportunities open up. This could end up being a good thing as far as opening up new ports to sail from. 

[hamrag]

3 minutes ago, mexicobob said:

....I, for one, have already begun making plans to cruise from Barcelona....

 

That should be interesting.....

[Croooser]

The letter from Rubio, Scott and company is well thought out and expressed clearly the issues and specific requests for information and action. It is surprisingly devoid of the normal political posturing we normally get from our politicians from either side of the political divide. 

 

IMO, they have done a very good job of highlighting the issues. If the administration fails to provide a meaningful response, it will be unfortunate to say the least.

[XCoastie73]

3 hours ago, Croooser said:

The letter from Rubio, Scott and company is well thought out and expressed clearly the issues and specific requests for information and action. It is surprisingly devoid of the normal political posturing we normally get from our politicians from either side of the political divide. 

 

IMO, they have done a very good job of highlighting the issues. If the administration fails to provide a meaningful response, it will be unfortunate to say the least.

Speaking from experience (see above) Government agencies generally default to the most risk-averse position. Their safest place is to not let anything happen that MIGHT create an issue or controversy. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

10 minutes ago, XCoastie73 said:

Speaking from experience (see above) Government agencies generally default to the most risk-averse position. Their safest place is to not let anything happen that MIGHT create an issue or controversy. 

So the thing to do is create a controversy that pushes the other way, like the CLIA letter campaign.